OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

[flyinglemur]

(Clearly dwarf souls are a lot more valuable than any other souls

That's actually mostly true. Word of giant is that longer lived souls are more valuable due to the greater life experience.

Dwarves live way longer than most races barring elves, which only live on the western continent, and dragons, which are probably going to Tiamat.

[deuterio12]

That's actually mostly true. Word of giant is that longer lived souls are more valuable due to the greater life experience.

Dwarves live way longer than most races barring elves, which only live on the western continent, and dragons, which are probably going to Tiamat.

Yeah, the northern gods themselves plain care more about dwarves than any of the humies/halflings/orcs/gnomes/etc.

[fabiobeta]

Something to notice: Rubys are needed to cast Simulacrum too.

Something I don't remember: what did Sabine whisper to Varsuuvius last time he was prisoner of the Three? I don't remember if we ever discovered it.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Something to notice: Rubys are needed to cast Simulacrum too.

Something I don't remember: what did Sabine whisper to Varsuuvius last time he was prisoner of the Three? I don't remember if we ever discovered it.

It was something something Laurin pulls out the stops early and often. See comic where Laurin pops out of the airship.

[SlashDash]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?

[hroþila]

Sabine has changed into a facsimile of an Azurite woman with white face paint. The white appears to actually be part of her body, not make up that she has applied. If she can do that, she can make her skin any colour she wants.

Or if it is make up, which has been created by magic, then she can create make up to lighten or darken her skin to any colour she wants.

You could see her real skin tone on the contours of her face and on her bust. It was clearly make-up. No different from her conjuring up clothes as part of her disguise, but still make-up and easily identifiable by observers.

[Cerlis]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?

anything is possible but based on the narrative the writer is crafting i'd imagine the tarquinn thing will be resolved with

one of them saying out loud in the falling action that they are glad that Tarquin didnt show up in the middle of the fight especially since it woulda been dramatic, and it cuts to them hopelessly loss looking for some place to land in the mountains over fermament somewhere

or him doing the dramatic import mass army thing only to land on xykon's doorstep, get the whole army meteorswarmed and die pathetically (or at least not be allowed to enter the story visa vie plane shift or something)

just like how he wanted to end the linear guilds' involvement i thinkt he tarquinn thing was a self contained plot that set up several important bits and anything we see to resolve their story will be done so in the epilogue because as far as the protagonists count their stories ARE resolved and i think he's made it clear multiple times that its the protagonists not the mguffin that is the story

[woweedd]

The IFCC look even more sinister under the new art style.

[schmunzel]

Something about the particular emphasis placed on the rubies (even moreso than the usual, "OK nerds, I'm following the rules!"), juxtaposed with the IFCC's plans for V, just made me think there's some very particular foreshadowing happening here.

So I researched which OTHER spells require ruby or ruby dust for spell components, and one interesting possibility does stick out: Simulacrum!

I'm wondering if those rubies may thus turn be the key to providing a "suitable vessel," or perhaps even a means by which V can evade the terms of his contract.

I think those are both maybe silly ideas, but I'm still wondering if there isn't something more to these rubies than meets the eye.

Relevant concerning the Simulacrum in 2nd ed seems to be the limitation of the simulacrum not havong a soul of its own

It is in 2nd ed just a physical copy with partly the stats and abilities and levels that has no mind (!) of its own. Unless you cast reincarnation.
Whether that is sufficient to goat the devil /demons / fiends to mix up V's soul seems to be questionable to me.


sch

[HorizonWalker]

Relevant concerning the Simulacrum in 2nd ed seems to be the limitation of the simulacrum not havong a soul of its own

It is in 2nd ed just a physical copy with partly the stats and abilities and levels that has no mind (!) of its own. Unless you cast reincarnation.
Whether that is sufficient to goat the devil /demons / fiends to mix up V's soul seems to be questionable to me.


sch

While it would likely be very useful to have the Simulacrum take V's place in the Lower Planes, it would still be useful, and less of a cheat, to have the Simulacrum take V's place on the Prime Material Plane while V's soul is in the Lower Planes. Sure, a Wizard half of V's level wouldn't be as useful as V... but it's one more Wizard than the Order had before.

[Schroeswald]

The succubus polymorph ability can change race, sex, eye colour, haircut, height, weight, body type, gear, clothes, etc.

But somehow it cannot change skin and hair color?

I think you're reading WAYYY too much into this.

Every single time she has shapeshifted it’s been to someone with same skin tone, even the twist reveals kept her skin tone, both Dave and the blacksmith has her skin tone (and the real blacksmith didn’t! If you’re trying to disguise yourself why change the skin tone of the person you are impersonating), maybe to it turns out that she can be Shirra, but first off, that’s a weird twist because I presume the IFCC watch the Order already so there’s no extra information, and second off, it breaks the pre-established rules of her shapeshifting, making the twist likely land a bit flatter.

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?

I don’t think we are at all guaranteed to have a Tarquin return, in fact most people (including moi) who think we are guaranteed anything about Tarquin is that we never see him again and he dies offscreen.

And why are we discounting Sabine again? We know she will return and she still has her Evil opposite theme.

[gerryq]

[--]

Also Re: ongoing discussion on the “vessel:” why do we think it’s a person? Given the prior conversation, it seems more likely to be a vessel for the artifact they’re discussing, and thus likely inanimate—a means of further transport for it, to safely move it from orange-fiend’s domain (I forget which one they were).

If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

[drazen]

anything is possible but based on the narrative the writer is crafting i'd imagine the tarquinn thing will be resolved with

one of them saying out loud in the falling action that they are glad that Tarquin didnt show up in the middle of the fight especially since it woulda been dramatic, and it cuts to them hopelessly loss looking for some place to land in the mountains over fermament somewhere

or him doing the dramatic import mass army thing only to land on xykon's doorstep, get the whole army meteorswarmed and die pathetically (or at least not be allowed to enter the story visa vie plane shift or something)

just like how he wanted to end the linear guilds' involvement i thinkt he tarquinn thing was a self contained plot that set up several important bits and anything we see to resolve their story will be done so in the epilogue because as far as the protagonists count their stories ARE resolved and i think he's made it clear multiple times that its the protagonists not the mguffin that is the story

There's plenty of choices for a vessel for Sabine: Gaanji, Enor, Ian, Geoff, Thog (if alive), Hinjo (isn't Belkar supposed to save him again? Or is that long over?), Shoulder Pad Guy, Jacinda, Minrah (who just ran off panel and just so happens to insist on going with the Order)... Someone should start a pool, if they haven't already.

Somehow I suspect Tarquin will be observing somehow but not directly involved. Maybe by having someone help scry for him. His team does need a new evil cleric (the anonymous Cleric of Loki, perhaps?). But I'm guessing he won't be able to get involved directly -- the ending of the arc with him was just too perfect, and his teammates aren't going to want to get involved in all of this after seeing what got wasted on his "story nonsense."

[SlashDash]

And why are we discounting Sabine again? We know she will return and she still has her Evil opposite theme.

She'll obviously return if she's mentioned in the strip, but she doesn't really have anything against the OotS anymore. She even helped them in the desert.

I don't see Haley vs Sabine as much of a rivalry at this point.

[The MunchKING]

So it would have helped the fiends if Hel had managed to get the world destroyed? Are they really trying to destroy it themselves, in that case?

It certainly would have made "We got all the Good Dragons killed" a lot easier than having to do it themselves...

Specially if, as Thor mentioned, outsiders have been forced to lose memories over and over after every world ending event.

Presumably part of the effect of being mind-wiped is you forget you were mind-wiped. SO whatever plans they had could be not accounting for the fact that when the Gods get ready to make a new world, they will sweep through and mind-wipe all the Outsiders.

I'm wondering if those rubies may thus turn be the key to providing a "suitable vessel," or perhaps even a means by which V can evade the terms of his contract.

The contract seems to specifically target her soul, so another body wouldn't really do much for her.

Re: The artifact, it can’t be anything that belongs to the main characters (vilains included) since Cedrik already has it. So it’s most likely a brand new doomsday device. Hmm, does anyone recall what happened to the talisman Nale was after?

It got shattered by Haley's arrow.

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

Spoiler

Show

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.

Oh, that's a GOOD one.

Something to notice: Rubys are needed to cast Simulacrum too.

Something I don't remember: what did Sabine whisper to Varsuuvius last time he was prisoner of the Three? I don't remember if we ever discovered it.

Tarquin and Laurin's tactical stats.

While it would likely be very useful to have the Simulacrum take V's place in the Lower Planes, it would still be useful, and less of a cheat, to have the Simulacrum take V's place on the Prime Material Plane while V's soul is in the Lower Planes. Sure, a Wizard half of V's level wouldn't be as useful as V... but it's one more Wizard than the Order had before.

Oh... I looked it up and it's an illusion/ice thing that acts under your orders. SO yeah, that might actually work as "some arcane power is better than NO Arcane power. I was thinking of Clone, where it was just another body.

If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

Also "innocent person to sacrifice and/or shove evil spirits into" is a classic fantasy/horror trope.

[Schroeswald]

She'll obviously return if she's mentioned in the strip, but she doesn't really have anything against the OotS anymore. She even helped them in the desert.

I don't see Haley vs Sabine as much of a rivalry at this point.

She'll likely help the IFCC and Oona doesn't have a rivalry with Belkar but you gave them as people to fight.

[Mic_128]

While it would likely be very useful to have the Simulacrum take V's place in the Lower Planes, it would still be useful, and less of a cheat, to have the Simulacrum take V's place on the Prime Material Plane while V's soul is in the Lower Planes. Sure, a Wizard half of V's level wouldn't be as useful as V... but it's one more Wizard than the Order had before.

The downside to that is she'd have to be able to cast it, instantly, as her soul is yanked away. I don't really see it as feasible, unless it's something V casts right before a fight - but then they could just yank V away as they're about to cast it.

[Alcore]

I'm already suspicious of the dwarf. (I don't know D&D can a succubus change size?)

1. Dwarfs are medium size, so even if she couldn't she could still impersonate a dwarf with no problems.

2. The target (or unique looking 'disguise') only needs to have the humanoid type. Size doesn't matter. I'll have to look it up but i think she can also gain a few physical properties of her assumed form.

[HorizonWalker]

The downside to that is she'd have to be able to cast it, instantly, as her soul is yanked away. I don't really see it as feasible, unless it's something V casts right before a fight - but then they could just yank V away as they're about to cast it.

Simulacrum has a casting time of twelve hours and a duration of instantaneous. It is not a spell you cast right before a fight. It is a spell you cast on Monday, after you clear your schedule, and then you maybe keep the Simulacrum around in a bag of holding or something.

Also, fun fact about Simulacra: They're not just made of rubies. They are also made of snow and ice! Y'know, the stuff that's absolutely everywhere in the Dwarven Lands and also the North Pole, and thus makes the spell somewhat thematically appropriate as well as genuinely useful.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tarqin being ignomiously defeated and killed by the resistance seems the fitting end for that NPC's arc.

"The Artifact" ~ "The Ming". I like it, but that may be too far of a reach.

The Vessel: Serini(if she's alive) or Julia seem likely in terms of being plot related. Thog? Not so much. (Granted, I personally do not care for the vessel to be Roy's sister, I think her role in the story was to go back to being a good student and getting her degree in whatever students at that Cliffport school/university get degress in, but I'm not writing the story).

[Jannoire]

It's obvious! The vessel can only be Redcloak's niece...

[danielxcutter]

As to the question of what artifact they refer to, I'm not necessarily throwing my vote this way, but has anyone considered the unholy chalice Quarr was trying to get V to mess with?

The only canon artifact I can think of and might work is the Planar Trestle from Exemplars of Evil, but somehow I doubt that.

[runeghost]

I don't know if they're referring specifically to Tarquin or not.
But I think it's safe to say that he'll surely show up. Considering the cliffhanger we got with him and .... well... if it's the last book - doesn't that mean all characters should have a personal enemy or agenda?

Roy -> Xykon obviously
Durkon -> Red Cloak and his newly found mission
V -> IFCC

Belkar doesn't have anyone in particular unless maybe we stretch it with Curly or maybe in some weird bizarro universe the Oracle.
I think there's a good shot his nemesis will be Oona. Ranger vs Beast Master sounds like a good showdown.

But who do Elan and Haley have?
Sabine is hardly an issue for Haley anymore. Nale is out of the picture for Elan.
Surely we're done with the thieves guild.

So Tarquin and Myron make the more sense.
Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous.



It doesn't say that Tarquin will be the vessel, but if they just need a random human sacrifice surely Tarquin has no problems providing one for them.

That, and last time they got minions, they sent Qarr as a familiar for Z.
We haven't seen Myron with a familiar, have we?

"Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous. "

You mean, like a revealingly-clad catgirl assassin on a flying carpet?

[TheNecrocomicon]

I guess this strip just goes to follow the apparent dramatic convention that things always get better and better for the villains (and conversely that much worse for the heroes) all the way until right before the very end.

Also, the IFCC only bothering to get their "followers" dirty and/or dead, and not themselves, is self-centred Evil to a tee.

If you send Sabine to get a vessel, it's a safe bet that the vessel is a person.

This. Count me as on board with those thinking that Tarquin seems to be the most likely choice. We might cut back to him, on the ropes against this new Western Continent resistance movement, possibly cornered and about to be be finished off ... then Sabine offers him a deal of some sort, vaguely worded enough that she is then able to take him away for use as the IFCC's ominously promised "vessel".

Or, I have a more horrifying thought. Minrah just wandered off for personal purposes while the Order carouses. What if Sabine takes the form of one of her family members -- or worse, has been doing so for a while -- and takes this opportunity to abscond with her to the Lower Planes?

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, I have a more horrifying thought. Minrah just wandered off for personal purposes while the Order carouses. What if Sabine takes the form of one of her family members -- or worse, has been doing so for a while -- and takes this opportunity to abscond with her to the Lower Planes?

That would stink. I hope that isn't where Giant goes with this.

Glad to see someone knows Simulacrum 3.x well enough to confirm my suspicion that it needs ice, and so going to the Northern Pole where there is much ice sets up a chance for V to create on .... maybe ...

Took a nice slow read with a little magnification; really like what the new art style has done for the three fiends.

[Riftwolf]

The succubus polymorph ability can change race, sex, eye colour, haircut, height, weight, body type, gear, clothes, etc.

But somehow it cannot change skin and hair color?

I think you're reading WAYYY too much into this.

She can, but she chooses not to.

[Schroeswald]

"Although based on previous history, Haley's nemesis should be flying and heavily promiscuous. "

You mean, like a revealingly-clad catgirl assassin on a flying carpet?

And now I remember what I forgot to put in my response: The airborne tramp thing is a) a joke from years ago, and b) The Giant is on the record regretting that stuff and actively de-sexed Laurin because of it, and then the forum went and made a thread calling her one of the airborne tramps and made theories about how Laurin’s favor involves marriage and/or sex with Tarquin.

So no, she will not be fighting any more flying women who are sexually promiscuous (besides possibly Sabine).

[Son of A Lich!]

Now that Greg has been taken care of, it seems like The Gate is the last thing to resolve (Or, at least, the next thing).

I wonder, sincerely, if the Vessel or artifact is Xykon's Phylactery. Seems like a good way to get a Lich off his lazy bones and moving. And he has talked about avoiding the fires down below before.

A part of me is concerned that Hilga will join the Legion of Doom and take over now that Greg is gone. Wealth, power, luxury and safety for Kudzu in exchange for her magical services and they're unexpected vacancy of high level clerics (And being a pawn but whatever).

Eh, I dunno, but I'm intrigued.

[Mad Humanist]

That was my initial thought! Something about the comment about taking a day off, plus it would fit with Sabine's MO at the start of Paladin Blues.
D&D dwarves are Medium sized, like humans (I think she was in dwarf shape when she sent Roy off on the Starmetal Quest).

This may be possible. But may be also you are also overthinking it. The joke is that both that the IFCC and V/Blackwing have expendible resources. In one case the Linear Guild and in the other magical components. Also we were set up to expect an IFCC/V interaction but did not get one. The strip advanced the plot on two fronts with a large dose of foreshadowing from the IFCC. The punchline was a joke where Blackwing claimed not have a joke. There was a lot in that strip. Does it really require the Dwarf is Sabine?

[SlashDash]

She'll likely help the IFCC and Oona doesn't have a rivalry with Belkar but you gave them as people to fight.

Sure, it's even possible she'll get someone new entirely.
I'm just saying from people we currently have, her biggest beef is with Myron.

Also, the IFCC only bothering to get their "followers" dirty and/or dead, and not themselves, is self-centred Evil to a tee.

One of them did went up face to face with Tiamat and got scorched for it.

And now I remember what I forgot to put in my response: The airborne tramp thing is a) a joke from years ago

No kidding... The comment you're referring to was also said as a joke

Now that Greg has been taken care of, it seems like The Gate is the last thing to resolve (Or, at least, the next thing).

Except that the vampires aren't done yet.
We only read through multiple strips now telling us that Curly is still alive.
Hel will likely try and do something else for the next book.

I wonder, sincerely, if the Vessel or artifact is Xykon's Phylactery. Seems like a good way to get a Lich off his lazy bones and moving. And he has talked about avoiding the fires down below before.

The one that Red Cloak holds? Not bloody likely and surely it's not something that the author will just say they got off screen.

A part of me is concerned that Hilga will join the Legion of Doom and take over now that Greg is gone. Wealth, power, luxury and safety for Kudzu in exchange for her magical services and they're unexpected vacancy of high level clerics (And being a pawn but whatever).

Eh, I dunno, but I'm intrigued.

That kind of defeats the perfect family portrait we just got with Durkon.
I wouldn't even say it's unlikely, it's flat out impossible to happen.
That entire conversation was all about getting Hilga out of the story.