OOTS #1184 - The Discussion Thread

[The Aboleth]

Roy says he's a dwarf.


And I'm sure the Azurite lady would disagree about dwarfs being better smiths.

The dwarf Roy was referring to was Sabine in disguise. The real blacksmith may or may not be a dwarf, but that has no bearing on Roy's comment in the linked comic.

[Yirggzmb]

Durkon should ask his Mom if she can comfortably hold and feed or play with Kudzu with just one arm. Granted, she’s had the disability a long time and is probably used to it, probably can, people with disabilities shock those without constantly with their adaptations. But it might help her see his point. Until this woman I have never seen a disabled person who’d rather have their issue than not (no offense meant of course).

She lost her arm before Durkon was born, so I imagine she'd point out that she wouldn't have a problem handling Kudzu with one arm.

[Schroeswald]

She lost her arm before Durkon was born, so I imagine she'd point out that she wouldn't have a problem handling Kudzu with one arm.

In fact she said this herself not too long ago.

[Dr.Zero]

Don't worry. A time will come when everyone will admit I was right. At least about some other stuff.

Ha. That won't ever happen, you know.

I'd not go so far as to call her attachment to the loss of the arm a mental illness, though, but I would much rather see Durkon getting this bit of closure. That said, the masochism-for-its-own-sake-as-a-value bit does seem to play a role.

Well, to me she seems clearly being portrayed as affected by a survivor guilt disorder, giving rise to self harming behaviors.

Like: "He died, so I must suffer too, and if I don't regenerate that arm, I'll feel less guilty for the fact that I survived."

In other news, I find particularly interesting as Durkon is now the H of the situation. Just read Sigid telling to Durkon "Oh, poor boy, they really filled your head with silly human ideas" and compare it to Durkon saying to H: "Ugh, listen to you, you sound like one of those humans"

Durkon has grown a lot: he loves his mom, he knows she is a great woman (as shown during the vampire's destruction), but now he knows she is not always right, and that you must not be miserable, to be a worthy dwarf.

And, collaterally, the author has grown too: now he writes characters with more deep than "perfectly good mom" vs "inadequate -if not crazy evil- father".
We have H who has a quite temper, who is not Good, who is generally selfish, but who is considered by Durkon (so, for extension, by the author) to be a good mom for Kudzu.
And we have Sigdi who is clearly portrayed as a great mom, who nonetheless was wrong in one of the core teachings she gave to Durkon, and is wrong in insisting to be miserable rationalizing her self harming behavior behind the "this is the dwarf way, not like those silly humans".

[MReav]

That's pretty much what I'd expect from Sidgi.

The strip raised a question for me, however, not about the story, but about the game. When a chopped-of member is regenerated, wha happens to the part that was cut? Does it dissolves magically? Does it remains and decomposes the usual way? Is it possible for someone with Regenerate to leave a trail of hands or arms that all belong to the same person? What kind of silly and horrible trail would that be?

I am pretty sure it's like the Hydra head. The chopped off limb doesn't dissipate. There's just a new limb to take its place.

[The_Weirdo]

Ha. That won't ever happen, you know.

I know you have more experience than me in this, given context, but let a man dream, dagnabbit!

Well, to me she seems clearly being portrayed as affected by a survivor guilt disorder, giving rise to self harming behaviors.

Like: "He died, so I must suffer too, and if I don't regenerate that arm, I'll feel less guilty for the fact that I survived."

In other news, I find particularly interesting as Durkon is now the H of the situation. Just read Sigid telling to Durkon "Oh, poor boy, they really filled your head with silly human ideas" and compare it to Durkon saying to H: "Ugh, listen to you, you sound like one of those humans"

Durkon has grown a lot: he loves his mom, he knows she is a great woman (as shown during the vampire's destruction), but now he knows she is not always right, and that you must not be miserable, to be a worthy dwarf.

And, collaterally, the author has grown too: now he writes characters with more deep than "perfectly good mom" vs "inadequate -if not crazy evil- father".
We have H who has a quite temper, who is not Good, who is generally selfish, but who is considered by Durkon (so, for extension, by the author) to be a good mom for Kudzu.
And we have Sigdi who is clearly portrayed as a great mom, who nonetheless was wrong in one of the core teachings she gave to Durkon, and is wrong in insisting to be miserable rationalizing her self harming behavior behind the "this is the dwarf way, not like those silly humans".

Fair, I guess... I don't know if that crosses the boundary into an actual disorder, though - but, then, I'm not a shrink.

Dammit, Durkon! Just hit her with the Regenerate! If she doesn't like having her arm back, she can just chop it off or pretend it's not there or something.

Nope. Even though I find her decision to be severely lacking in common sense, her body, her rules.

[The MunchKING]

Dammit, Durkon! Just hit her with the Regenerate! If she doesn't like having her arm back, she can just chop it off or pretend it's not there or something.

YEAH! Violate her autonomy all over the place! If she doesn't like you forcing her into major life changing decisions against her will, just to fulfill YOUR asperations, she can just learn to love it or go into self mutilation. Totally Lawful Good behavior there.

[Reboot]

Dammit, Durkon! Just hit her with the Regenerate! If she doesn't like having her arm back, she can just chop it off or pretend it's not there or something.

If she really didn't want it, as a fighter, she'd probably make her fortitude save to stop it happening.

[The_Weirdo]

YEAH! Violate her autonomy all over the place! If she doesn't like you forcing her into major life changing decisions against her will, just to fulfill YOUR asperations, she can just learn to love it or go into self mutilation. Totally Lawful Good behavior there.

Don't look at me this time, I'm with you on this issue.

[The Aboleth]

In other news, I find particularly interesting as Durkon is now the H of the situation. Just read Sigid telling to Durkon "Oh, poor boy, they really filled your head with silly human ideas" and compare it to Durkon saying to H: "Ugh, listen to you, you sound like one of those humans"

Durkon has grown a lot: he loves his mom, he knows she is a great woman (as shown during the vampire's destruction), but now he knows she is not always right, and that you must not be miserable, to be a worthy dwarf.

And, collaterally, the author has grown too: now he writes characters with more deep than "perfectly good mom" vs "inadequate -if not crazy evil- father".
We have H who has a quite temper, who is not Good, who is generally selfish, but who is considered by Durkon (so, for extension, by the author) to be a good mom for Kudzu.
And we have Sigdi who is clearly portrayed as a great mom, who nonetheless was wrong in one of the core teachings she gave to Durkon, and is wrong in insisting to be miserable rationalizing her self harming behavior behind the "this is the dwarf way, not like those silly humans".

I think Durkon is striking a good middle ground between Hilgya's entirely selfish "me-first before all else" viewpoint and Sigdi's selfless "Do right by others, even if it causes you pain" viewpoint (as she clearly believes that keeping herself one-armed is "doing right" by Tenrin). I think Durkon is recognizing that a balance of the two can be achieved while still being a "good dwarf" (in the social context, not the alignment one).

[Dr.Zero]

I think Durkon is striking a good middle ground between Hilgya's entirely selfish "me-first before all else" viewpoint and Sigdi's selfless "Do right by others, even if it causes you pain" viewpoint (as she clearly believes that keeping herself one-armed is "doing right" by Tenrin). I think Durkon is recognizing that a balance of the two can be achieved while still being a "good dwarf" (in the social context, not the alignment one).

Of course, he is not going to become Chaotic Neutral (or Evil, but Neutral for me), and you're correct about the middle ground, what I wanted to underline was the fact that the conversations between D vs H and S vs D are mirroring each other. If one compares the two strips, they have really a lot in common. That can't be simply by chance.

S is shown wrong now, as D was wrong back then in wanting to force H back to a life where she felt miserable.
H was right back then about the right to pursue happiness (according to the sarcasm used by D, at the time), as D is shown to be the rational one now.

[bunsen_h]

Yep. The dwarven council members didn't use any non-standard variation either iirc, so maybe it's a (social) class marker or something else entirely. It's just that for some dwarves eye dialect has been used to draw some attention to it.

Perhaps it's a side effect of too-frequent use of Sending.

[The_Weirdo]

Perhaps it's a side effect of too-frequent use of Sending.

You are forbidden from coming up with theories. You know what you did to that poor redheaded fellow! He can't even speak right anymore!

[Personification]

Don't worry. A time will come when everyone will admit I was right. At least about some other stuff.

The_Weirdo will show them!!!!! He'll Show them ALL!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: In all seriousness though, while I generally disagree with you, I mean no offense.

[Knight13]

YEAH! Violate her autonomy all over the place! If she doesn't like you forcing her into major life changing decisions against her will, just to fulfill YOUR asperations, she can just learn to love it or go into self mutilation. Totally Lawful Good behavior there.

It's not even a question of doing it against her will, since she hasn't actually said she doesn't want it. All she's done is offer a series of increasingly weak reasons why it might be a bad idea, all of which Durkon refuted. I think she's either, as Durkon said, taken the dwarven credo of denying yourself for the benefit of others to the self-destructive extreme of denying herself pointlessly, to the benefit of no one, or she's just afraid of any major changes, even unambiguously positive ones.

[The_Weirdo]

The_Weirdo will show them!!!!! He'll Show them ALL!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: In all seriousness though, while I generally disagree with you, I mean no offense.

None taken. I'm very self-aware on that topic and, indeed, know that I do, indeed, have that kind of approach to some stuff. If you know Genius: the Transgression, my catalyst in the game would be neid.

It's not even a question of doing it against her will, since she hasn't actually said she doesn't want it. All she's done is offer a series of increasingly weak reasons why it might be a bad idea, all of which Durkon refuted. I think she's either, as Durkon said, taken the dwarven credo of denying yourself for the benefit of others to the self-destructive extreme of denying herself pointlessly, to the benefit of no one, or she's just afraid of any major changes, even unambiguously positive ones.

Dude, you do, of course, realize that not all refusals have to have the word "no" in them, right?

[Grey Watcher]

Question for the author: how badly were you tempted to title this one "Talkin' 'Bout Regeneration" instead?

[Particle_Man]

I sort of see the not getting the arm regenerated as some Sigdi equivalent of an unmarried person choosing to remain a virgin until marriage. It is a denial of one’s own pleasure but it is not incoherent. For all we know maybe her husband will appreciate the gesture Sigdi is making.

[Emperor Time]

The_Weirdo will show them!!!!! He'll Show them ALL!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: In all seriousness though, while I generally disagree with you, I mean no offense.

That font and color makes me worry a little in that prediction becoming true eventually.

[The_Weirdo]

That font and color makes me worry a little in that prediction becoming true eventually.

They called me mad.

[blunk]

Kind of like a Chekhov's arm or something. Except it's already gone off

hooooo boy

[The MunchKING]

They called me mad.

And boy! Were they right.

[The_Weirdo]

And boy! Were they right.

Maybe, but "mad" and "wrong" are two different things, you know.

[Draconi Redfir]

Dammit, Durkon! Just hit her with the Regenerate! If she doesn't like having her arm back, she can just chop it off or pretend it's not there or something.

Hi, i'm pretty sure that's considered assault on some level? Like picking up a kid in a wheelchair and holding them up to make them "walk" without them asking for it. That's not okay man.

It's not even a question of doing it against her will, since she hasn't actually said she doesn't want it. All she's done is offer a series of increasingly weak reasons why it might be a bad idea, all of which Durkon refuted.

learn from real life. If it is not a "Yes", then assume it is a "No." Even if she says "i don't know", "Maybe", "Not right now" or "Perhaps later" then that Still counts as a "No" until she says "Yes"!

[The_Weirdo]

Hi, i'm pretty sure that's considered assault on some level? Like picking up a kid in a wheelchair and holding them up to make them "walk" without them asking for it. That's not okay man.

Well, not quite, unless they end up able to walk right after you do it. But it very much is a form of assault, at the very least, as it removes from the individual autonomy over their own body. If I recall correctly, treating someone that doesn't want to be treated is presented as assault in some medical shows.

[F.Harr]

There's more about that arm than what we've been told.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Perhaps it's a side effect of too-frequent use of Sending.

Nope, since he was talking like that long before he got access to that spell. Durkon's all but unintelligible accent is one of the stereotype bits from the early strips that I really wish had faded away in the interim, or at least watered down to the point I don't have to reread to make sure I understand him.

[Cazero]

It's not even a question of doing it against her will, since she hasn't actually said she doesn't want it. All she's done is offer a series of increasingly weak reasons why it might be a bad idea, all of which Durkon refuted. I think she's either, as Durkon said, taken the dwarven credo of denying yourself for the benefit of others to the self-destructive extreme of denying herself pointlessly, to the benefit of no one, or she's just afraid of any major changes, even unambiguously positive ones.

It absolutely is a question of doing it against her will, since she hasn't actually said she does want it. All she's done is offer a series of increasingly weak reaons why it might be a bad idea, indicating that on some level she doesn't want it. It's an emotional issue. Emotions don't have to make sense.
Wether or not it's self-destructive is irrelevant. Her body, her choice.

[mjasghar]

So Durkon will have an unused prepped regen spell in his slots
Could this become important later?

[Fyraltari]

So Durkon will have an unused prepped regen spell in his slots
Could this become important later?

Only if'n they get a random encount'r in tha sky. An' he runs outta all 'is other spells b'fore mornin'.