Stupid RAW Tricks

[MaxWilson]

Friends turns creatures hostile. Warcaster lets you cast spells as a reaction on hostile creatures who give you an opening (opportunity attack). Therefore, you can improve your action economy by casting Friends on other PCs so you can Polymorph them into T Rexes with your reaction instead of your action.

No sane DM will ever let this combo work and be required. Try it and you'll wind up with a DM who either rewrites Warcaster to make Friends unnecessary (can Polymorph anyone), or rewrites Warcaster to restrict you from Polymorphing even enemies, or rewrites Friends, or throws a book at you. The RAW are just stupid.

Anyone else got any stupid RAW tricks which shouldn't work they want to vent about? UA centaurs towers, etc.?

[bid]

Friends turns creatures hostile. Warcaster lets you cast spells as a reaction on hostile creatures who give you an opening (opportunity attack). Therefore, you can improve your action economy by casting Friends on other PCs so you can Polymorph them into T Rexes with your reaction instead of your action.

Action: polymorph
OR
Action: friend, reaction polymorph

I don't think the DM will care if you waste your reaction like that.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Action: polymorph
OR
Action: friend, reaction polymorph

I don't think the DM will care if you waste your reaction like that.

The problem is the timing. You don't necessarily have to cast Friends during combat, as it's the spell ending that makes them hostile. It's still horribly inefficient.

There's also the caveat as part of Polymorph about a creatures willingness. If a creature is hostile to you, I doubt they'd be considered a willing target.

[MaxWilson]

Action: polymorph
OR
Action: friend, reaction polymorph

I don't think the DM will care if you waste your reaction like that.

Cast out before you go in the dungeon, not during combat--it doesn't make them hostile until it wears off.

Round 1: squishy wizard steps forward, bard turns wizard into Giant Ape with reaction, Giant Ape begins hammering enemy with giant fists, bard gives inspiration and casts Dissonant Whispers to give the ape an opportunity attack.

That's two rounds of casting in one round.

[bid]

Cast out before you go in the dungeon, not during combat--it doesn't make them hostile until it wears off.

Since polymorph lasts 1 hour, you'd need "hostile" to last long enough compared to this. And if they're hostile, why would they stay in the party with you?

So, is perma-hostile the only thing that makes this useful or am I missing something?
As I see it, you recast friend every minute and waste your concentration slot. Is that how you use it?

[MaxWilson]

Since polymorph lasts 1 hour, you'd need "hostile" to last long enough compared to this. And if they're hostile, why would they stay in the party with you?

PCs can do whatever they want, including adventure with other creature they're hostile towards. Remember hostile != violently aggressive. See DMG definition of hostile.

Friends also doesn't say the hostility ever ends, although there's nothing stopping a player from declaring a friendly reconciliation when they want to. (Presumably after the dungeon is over but really whenever the player feels like it.)

[ProsecutorGodot]

See DMG definition of hostile.

Seems like the problem sorts itself out

The adventurers need to succeed on one or more challenging Charisma checks to convince a hostile creature to do anything on their behalf.

Unless you make one or more "challenging Charisma checks" your Polymorph target doesn't count as willing, then they make a wisdom save. If your target claims they are willing, I wouldn't consider them hostile (they don't exactly meet the definition if they would freely submit to a spell on your behalf) so they wouldn't trigger War Caster to begin with.

Taking these shenanigans into account though, I can more clearly see the argument you're trying to make here and I find myself agreeing that there is room for exploitation. It's fairly flimsy from my point of view, but we already know it doesn't take much to open the floodgates.

[Toadkiller]

I would absolutely allow this. Eagerly even.

“As the wizard transforms into a towering carnivore there is a moment of silence... until with a roar it turns towards its enemy... and attacks you.”

That T Rex is totally going to attack the bard. In fact the two divination wizards that you were hiding around the corner just *knew* this was going to happen. Let me see what the portents have told them.

Oh dear, oh dear....

Yes; we usually let the player who is polymorphed play the giant ape or whatever. But that just wouldn’t be fair if it was charmed.

[Keravath]

The thing is ... friends doesn't necessarily work that way.

If you cast friends on a friend/buddy ... they are going to be angry with you. Whether they would attack you or not depends on the character. Whether their anger would extend to actually making attacks and rolling initiative is another question altogether.

I would suggest, that for most parties, casting friends on a party member will not induce them to attack you in a way that might generate opportunity attacks. In addition, if they are sufficiently angry to be hostile and execute an attack, they are less likely to run away and trigger an op attack.

Finally, if they are actually hostile enough to trigger a reaction attack and do run away, and they are polymorphed, then as a DM I would rule that the new T-rex has to deal with their "friend" first since they are adjacent and they are hostile.

Text from Friends .. hostile is NOT equal to making an attack or initiating combat.

"For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn't hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM's discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it."

A friend with Friends cast on them is far more likely to get even in other ways I would think.

[bid]

See DMG definition of hostile.

That's the iffy part of the cost and will depend on the table, I understand it's not a sure bet.

But, you know, when someone offers a recipe for disaster I'd like them to spell out the actual cost along with the gain. In this case it's:
- using your concentration to keep casting friend on a party member,
- dropping concentration at the start of the encounter,
- using your reaction to cast whatever spell.
The cost might be peanuts, but it's a plus when one can say it's "only" that.

Of course to be thourough, the iffy parts should be added:
- the target is hostile but still get no Wis save.
It doesn't matter if listing the restrictions makes it usable on few tables, someone else could improve on it.


It seems more constructive to discuss the impact of restrictions and how/when to work around them.

[MaxWilson]

Seems like the problem sorts itself out

Unless you make one or more "challenging Charisma checks" your Polymorph target doesn't count as willing, then they make a wisdom save. If your target claims they are willing, I wouldn't consider them hostile (they don't exactly meet the definition if they would freely submit to a spell on your behalf) so they wouldn't trigger War Caster to begin with.

Just ask the player if they're willing. They'll say yes. Therefore, willing target despite hostility. (In theory they could be willing to get Polymorphed by an enemy lich too, e.g. to deliver a ransom demand or as an alternative to torture.)

Remember I'm not defending this RAW. It's stupid and munchkiny. It shouldn't be legal but it clearly is.

The thing is ... friends doesn't necessarily work that way.

If you cast friends on a friend/buddy ... they are going to be angry with you. Whether they would attack you or not depends on the character. Whether their anger would extend to actually making attacks and rolling initiative is another question altogether.

I would suggest, that for most parties, casting friends on a party member will not induce them to attack you in a way that might generate opportunity attacks. In addition, if they are sufficiently angry to be hostile and execute an attack, they are less likely to run away and trigger an op attack.

Opportunity attacks are generated when a hostile creature you can see moves out of your reach. That's it. They don't have to be attacking you. They might just be planning to embarrass you socially.

Of course in real life, hostility has nothing to do with it, which is why it's stupid for Friends and hostility to get involved in this combo. A sane DM absolutely should let you opportunity attack non-hostiles given a reason (e.g. to keep a Barbarian's Rage up, or to break a Polymorph-into-a-toad).

Warcaster is actually stupid by itself, but I didn't want arguments over whether you could declare yourself effectively hostile to another PC just to trigger opportunity attacks, so I threw in this other RAW stupidity to create hostility.

BTW Friends shouldn't automatically create hostility either. That's a roleplaying decision. In a forgiving soul it might only create hurt and feelings of shock and betrayal. In others it might create awe. Automatic hostility, even non-violent hostility, is inappropriate. It should just be automatic awareness of the magic.

[Willie the Duck]

Just ask the player if they're willing. They'll say yes. Therefore, willing target despite hostility. (In theory they could be willing to get Polymorphed by an enemy lich too, e.g. to deliver a ransom demand or as an alternative to torture.)

Remember I'm not defending this RAW. It's stupid and munchkiny. It shouldn't be legal but it clearly is.

Your thread title did establish what we are doing, and that is reveling in the ridiculous.

As to RAW, I am AFB, and only have this as reference. Is hostile a state that clearly applies to PCs? Is there actual language on that?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Just ask the player if they're willing. They'll say yes. Therefore, willing target despite hostility. (In theory they could be willing to get Polymorphed by an enemy lich too, e.g. to deliver a ransom demand or as an alternative to torture.)

Remember I'm not defending this RAW. It's stupid and munchkiny. It shouldn't be legal but it clearly is.

The issue is, if we're using the definition of Hostile as our RAW basis then they can't willingly go along with the Polymorph request without being convinced via a charisma check. Submitting to the spell, by all accounts, is a benefit to the caster so being hostile means you will not do that without being convinced. Your example with the Lich follows strictly different rules as the ability to convince a hostile target to do something on your behalf is a player thing. There's also an argument to be made that your repeated use of the friends spell on this target has made them so unagreeable that they can't even be convinced through a charisma check to go along with your plan.

That's the rub with treating your friends as hostile (and why no DM in their right mind should allow this) as soon as you start labeling them with this tag, it takes away small bits of their autonomy in the pursuit of allowing the exploit. It's clear as day in the definition of Hostile that if you are hostile to the party, you will not do things for them without being convinced. Convincing you is a "difficult check" and sometimes you won't do what they ask regardless.

I'm making the assumption that if this happens at your table, both the Polymorpher and Polymorphee are in on it and attempting to be exploitative. If they've approached you with such a hairbrained scheme, I might not feel that bad about sticking to the letter on what it means to be hostile to the party just to show them that these kinds of shenanigans don't stop when it only benefits them.

Your thread title did establish what we are doing, and that is reveling in the ridiculous.

As to RAW, I am AFB, and only have this as reference. Is hostile a state that clearly applies to PCs? Is there actual language on that?

It uses the general term "Creature" which players characters do fall under. Nothing specifically to say whether this is meant to apply to player characters, although the text (the way I see it) heavily implies that adventurers (the player characters) are meant to be seperate from the general term of creature in reference to these rules. Implications don't help us here though.

[MaxWilson]

Your thread title did establish what we are doing, and that is reveling in the ridiculous.

As to RAW, I am AFB, and only have this as reference. Is hostile a state that clearly applies to PCs? Is there actual language on that?

Only the Friends cantrip explicitly applies. It just says the "creature" becomes "hostile" afterwards. PCs are creatures. I don't know of any other RAW that can declare a PC hostile or non-hostile.

The issue is, if we're using the definition of Hostile as our RAW basis then they can't willingly go along with the Polymorph request without being convinced via a charisma check. Submitting to the spell, by all accounts, is a benefit to the caster so being hostile means you will not do that without being convinced. Your example with the Lich follows strictly different rules as the ability to convince a hostile target to do something on your behalf is a player thing.

They're both player things, and you're assuming that the caster is making a request of the target, which isn't true. In fact the target is benefiting from the caster's spell, so if anything, it is the squishy wizard who would have asked the bard in advance to transform him into a Giant Ape in order to triple his HP so he doesn't die! The bard isn't hostile to the wizard (Friends doesn't make the *caster* hostile) and he's a PC, so he can clearly agree to the request from the now-surly wizard.

[Segev]

I think we're getting awfully hung up on friends, here. I wanted to try to rerail with another stupid trick, but other than the illusionist tricks I have in a by-now rather old thread, I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

[ProsecutorGodot]

They're both player things, and you're assuming that the caster is making a request of the target, which isn't true. In fact the target is benefiting from the caster's spell, so if anything, it is the squishy wizard who would have asked the bard in advance to transform him into a Giant Ape in order to triple his HP so he doesn't die! The bard isn't hostile to the wizard (Friends doesn't make the *caster* hostile) and he's a PC, so he can clearly agree to the request from the now-surly wizard.

The request is "you are the target of my polymorph spell, receive spell willingly Y/N"

If the Wizard is asking favors from the Bard I wouldn't consider them hostile anymore either, referencing the very first line of Hostile:

A hostile creature opposes the adventurers and their goals but doesn’t necessarily attack them on sight.

If we're following the letter of RAW here, being hostile means that you can't simply go along with the goals of whoever your ire is drawn towards. If their goal is to Polymorph you, you must resist. If you're asking and submitting to be Polymorphed, you aren't hostile.

[MaxWilson]

If we're following the letter of RAW here, being hostile means that you can't simply go along with the goals of whoever your ire is drawn towards. If their goal is to Polymorph you, you must resist. If you're asking and submitting to be Polymorphed, you aren't hostile.

This is clearly false, see Lich example above.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This is clearly false, see Lich example above.

The Bard isn't a Lich, he's your ally who you're having a petty but short lived spat with.

Strictly speaking, the Lich example also fails because being Hostile only affects the adventurers interactions with other creatures, it doesn't force the Lich to make any checks to convince you. Even better, if this is your idea rather than the Lich's then you still have to convince him because he's hostile to you.

[Willie the Duck]

Only the Friends cantrip explicitly applies. It just says the "creature" becomes "hostile" afterwards. PCs are creatures. I don't know of any other RAW that can declare a PC hostile or non-hostile.

Well we better find out if and how creatures can be hostile, and whether the definition of the term precludes PCs (them being creatures or not). The stack exchange article I referenced states that there is language on DMG 244 that it doesn't spell out. It also lists a brief piece from PHB 185 thusly: "In general terms, an NPC’s attitude toward you is described as friendly, indifferent, or hostile. Friendly NPCs are predisposed to help you, and hostile ones are inclined to get in your way." That, at the very least, is NPC-facing and can cause some RAW issues, depending on the actual text. I'm hoping the DMG information clears it up.

Purely from what you have provided, if hostile is merely a flag or tag, one you gain by being a creature and subject to a Friends spell and is checked when you provoke an OA against someone with War Casters, then this case could hold up. I am merely checking on what the book says about the hostile status, and whether it can apply to PCs.

[Damon_Tor]

Anyone else got any stupid RAW tricks which shouldn't work they want to vent about? UA centaurs towers, etc.?

I've posted a few:

Rowboats are the best melee weapon in the game. 4d10 damage, no action needed to attack.
Monk weapons can be used with str to attack and dex to damage. Potentially useful for Barbarian Monks
As long as another rules element would prevent you from casting a spell, you can concentrate on spells while in rage. Warning: this one made people very angry
It could be possible to use clone to become "native" to a demiplane, allowing you to use banishment for easy travel back to said demiplane.

[patchyman]

They're both player things, and you're assuming that the caster is making a request of the target, which isn't true. In fact the target is benefiting from the caster's spell, so if anything, it is the squishy wizard who would have asked the bard in advance to transform him into a Giant Ape in order to triple his HP so he doesn't die! The bard isn't hostile to the wizard (Friends doesn't make the *caster* hostile) and he's a PC, so he can clearly agree to the request from the now-surly wizard.

The polymorphed creature gets the mental stats of the creature it is polymorphed into. Seems pretty clear to me what Giant Apes and T-rexes do to creatures to which they are hostile.

[Mr Adventurer]

I think we're getting awfully hung up on friends, here. I wanted to try to rerail with another stupid trick, but other than the illusionist tricks I have in a by-now rather old thread, I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

Hello, yes, would you mind linking your thread please? :)

[AHF]

Seems like something pretty big is being overlooked here. A lot of people are posting about hostility not necessarily being violent, etc. That is all generally true and could well be the right resolution based on the specific scenario.

But you just polymorphed your friend into a T-Rex. Your friend now has a 2 intelligence because he assumes the mental stats of the T-Rex. My assumption as a DM is that a T-Rex typically solves its conflicts by biting the source of the hostility until it no longer moves. How do you think a 2 INT T-Rex is going to react to something that has magically triggered hostility in such a mentally limited creature?

[HappyDaze]

How do you think a 2 INT T-Rex is going to react to something that has magically triggered hostility in such a mentally limited creature?

By making rude gestures with its tiny arms?

[MaxWilson]

Seems like something pretty big is being overlooked here. A lot of people are posting about hostility not necessarily being violent, etc. That is all generally true and could well be the right resolution based on the specific scenario.

But you just polymorphed your friend into a T-Rex. Your friend now has a 2 intelligence because he assumes the mental stats of the T-Rex. My assumption as a DM is that a T-Rex typically solves its conflicts by biting the source of the hostility until it no longer moves. How do you think a 2 INT T-Rex is going to react to something that has magically triggered hostility in such a mentally limited creature?

It's not being overlooked, it's being dismissed every time people mention it because that's not how Polymorph works in 5E. The T-Rex or Giant Ape doesn't become an NPC. It still does what the player decides for it to do.

If you want Polymorph to turn you into an NPC, play AD&D.

[Rukelnikov]

IMO it doesn't work because the assumption of "ask the player if its willing" is being overwritten by Friends.

Enchantments take away free will, its what they do, if an enchantment makes you magically hostile, you do not get to decide whether you are willing or not.

[redwizard007]

It's not being overlooked, it's being dismissed every time people mention it because that's not how Polymorph works in 5E. The T-Rex or Giant Ape doesn't become an NPC. It still does what the player decides for it to do.

If you want Polymorph to turn you into an NPC, play AD&D.

Gotta back him on this one.

Polymorphed creatures retain their own alignment (worthless, but ok,) and personality. Just reducing their Int to 2 doesn't mean they immediately rampage violently.

[patchyman]

It's not being overlooked, it's being dismissed every time people mention it because that's not how Polymorph works in 5E. The T-Rex or Giant Ape doesn't become an NPC. It still does what the player decides for it to do.

The player still has to act in a manner consistent with the polymorphed form. If a player acts much more intelligent than their current form, the DM can rule accordingly, and the party member the polymorphed character is hostile to may get smashed.

[MaxWilson]

The player still has to act in a manner consistent with the polymorphed form. If a player acts much more intelligent than their current form, the DM can rule accordingly, and the party member the polymorphed character is hostile to may get smashed.

You're a giant ape surrounded by ogres who want to kill you and a bard who recently annoyed you. You decide to attack the ogres. The DM seizes control of your character and decrees that you actually attack the bard. You're... okay with this, even in the context of 5E? Wow. I am astonished.

[redwizard007]

The player still has to act in a manner consistent with the polymorphed form. If a player acts much more intelligent than their current form, the DM can rule accordingly, and the party member the polymorphed character is hostile to may get smashed.

I haven't seen anything in the spell to support your first sentence. Maintaining the targets personality is mentioned for a reason.

Sure, complex plans are out the window, but targeting hostiles vs non-hostiles is a pretty basic behavior that we see in the animal kingdom.