She-Ra Season 4 is out, embrace your inner queen!

[LaZodiac]

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Eh, I still don't entirely trust Shadow Weaver, not because I think this is all a ploy, but because she's clearly an opportunist. She was firmly sided with the sorcerers and legitimately wanted to defeat the Horde. Then, after burning that bridge, she just straight up joined the Horde and started legitimately fighting the princesses. Then, after burning that bridge, too, she flipped sides again, and as far as I can tell, she's just as committed to helping the princesses as she was to beating them. I think it's probably only a matter of time until she does something that makes the heroes kick her out, and with Horde Prime here, there's now a new side for her to hop onto. This is especially likely because it was Glimmer shielding her from the wrath of the other heroes, and now Glimmer is gone. There is no one to protect her from Adora and Micah, especially because those two are likely going to be taking the reigns.

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While you are true, I think it's worth noting that Weaver is clearly a pragmatist above all else. She joined the Horde because the sorcerers kicked her out for "practicing dark magic", which yes was very dangerous and ****ed her up a lot, so she became disillusioned with them and joined the side she figured would win. Then after Catra ****ing her up and generally making it clear that Weaver's actually been going about things wrong, she returns to the Princesses hoping for succor. She gets it, and it reminds her of what she actually cared about.

She's still a pragmatist. She still believes using the planet's energy in such a way is a viable option. But if she was really evil, I think she'd have NOT warned Glimmer about it. Glimmer is going to go to the Fright-zone with Scorpia to get this power activated and use it and Shadow Weaver says "what no that's way too dangerous we need to convene and discuss this first" and I think that's a sign of growth on her part.

[The Fury]

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Eh, I still don't entirely trust Shadow Weaver, not because I think this is all a ploy, but because she's clearly an opportunist. She was firmly sided with the sorcerers and legitimately wanted to defeat the Horde. Then, after burning that bridge, she just straight up joined the Horde and started legitimately fighting the princesses. Then, after burning that bridge, too, she flipped sides again, and as far as I can tell, she's just as committed to helping the princesses as she was to beating them. I think it's probably only a matter of time until she does something that makes the heroes kick her out, and with Horde Prime here, there's now a new side for her to hop onto. This is especially likely because it was Glimmer shielding her from the wrath of the other heroes, and now Glimmer is gone. There is no one to protect her from Adora and Micah, especially because those two are likely going to be taking the reigns.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver

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My thought on Shadow Weaver is that she's interested in cultivating and grooming power. Whether that's training Micah, advising Hordak, raising Adora or now acting as an adviser to Glimmer. So it's a clever bit of exposition to have Shadow Weaver take up gardening.

As for whether she's turned face... yeah, I still don't think so. If nothing else, emotionally damaging Adora and Catra, torturing Glimmer and locking Bow in prison is a lot to move past. Shadow Weaver could be attempting a long game, but in any case Glimmer's showing more of a dark side under her guidance. It could be out of Glimmer's own desperation or because Shadow Weaver has been suggesting more brutal courses of action. Possibly a mixture of both.

All that being said, I think she's going to be relatively helpful for a while. She probably will be at odds with Adora and Micah eventually, but I think she'll try to help them get Glimmer back from Horde Prime. After all, Glimmer is her current project and Shadow Weaver doesn't react well to having her projects taken away.

[Ramza00]

Responding to Celestia and others. [LaZodiac and TheFury already got there first.]

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner

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I would argue based off the Season 4 images / motifs of Shadow Weaver plus her previous Season 1 and Season 2 behavior that Shadow Weaver character is supposed to evoke Voltaire's Candide, ou l'Optimisme [Candide: or, All for the Best / Candide: or, The Optimist]. We Must Tend to Ones Garden

Shadow Weaver: Impressive.
Glimmer: Huh? What are you doing here?

Shadow Weaver: I've come to tend my garden.
Glimmer: You've got to be kidding me.
Glimmer: You're gardening? You?
Shadow Weaver: One must keep oneself occupied.
Shadow Weaver: Your power is truly a sight to behold.
Shadow Weaver: It's no wonder, you being Micah's daughter.
Glimmer: I'd never seen a sorcerer like him.
Glimmer: I get it.
Glimmer: I'm the daughter of an angelic being and a powerful sorcerer, and I'll never be as good as either of them.
Shadow Weaver: That's true.
Shadow Weaver: You'll be better.
[Shadow Weaver chuckling.]

In this satirical work Voltaire argues via satire [and thus indirectly] Voltaire argues we should se reality as it is, and not as how it could be, for often when we try to argue how reality as it could be we start using motivated reasoning such as religion, philosophical idealism / extreme optimism [this reality is not bad or evil but instead "The Best of All Possible Worlds" that God could create for he would not create a world that is not the best of all possible combinations that god could create. Aka the Leinbiz form of extreme optimism. Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz being one of the two founders of calculus, but he is also famous for his philosophy and idealism.] Voltaire argues against seeing what it could be for he thinks it makes us sloppy and less accurate, it makes us worse cultivators, when we allow our own motivated reasoning to cloud our own judgement. Thus we need to be skeptical and distrustful of ideology and things that provide "excess support" to oneself, for such things can prevent us from ggrowing.

And thus Candide the work but also the character ends with the main character [Candide] in contrast to his teacher Professor Pangloss. There is an exchange at the end of the work where Candide responds to the Professor who just ranted saying we live in the best of all possible worlds, well Candide says "That is very well put† . . . but we must cultivate our garden." [† Note do not read this as literal, Candide is actually humoring / ignoring / sarcastically putting down his former teacher whose belief he used to have but no longer does. Aka Candide just pulled an "ok boomer" when he said "we should cultivate our garden."]

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Shadow Weaver may turn out to be the ultimate villain, or she may just be a person who will seize power in an opportunistic fashion, or she may live in brightmoon and just look out to her own interests and not upset the stability of brightmoon. All of these options work from a narrative standpoint.

To understand Light Spinner / Shadow Weaver though you have to understand:

• A) That she loves to "cultivate one's potential" and see it grow. In herself but also in others.
• B) Furthermore she is skeptical of others optimism for things do not have to go as planned, things can definitely go wrong.
• C) She is not above using pain and other forms of negative reinforcement to help people cultivate one's potential. Using pain and negative reinforcement is tools in her arsenal much like praise and positive reinforcement. [In fact she may do it too much pain and negative reinforcement, and not do enough positive reinforcement, encouragement, love, etc. Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner may do too much manipulation no one knows if they can trust her.]
• D) She will tell things matter of factly to others, and will use derision / take pleasure in pointing out the flaws ofs logic, analysist, and technique especially when it is the optimists who are trying to "spin her."

Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner in Neutral in alignment, yet she will gladly use the tools of Evil to further her goals. Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner is extremely pragmatic to an absurd degree, she is just opportunistic and has no higher rules just neutrallity to the point of amorality.

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Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner is a bad mom as a mother. Her techniques are too much for toddlers and elementary school students. Humans are hard wired with needing some form of trust, some form of foundation to build upon. Adding skepticism and both negative with positive reinforcement works better with teenagers and adults. But even then Shadow Weaver may go too far, and teens plus adults still need support systems.

Shadow Weaver is a mirror nothing more, a mirror with agency. A mirror who can be used for wicked ends, or virtuous graceful ends.

Part of the way Shadow Weaver became the way she did was society she grew up in was so "idyllic" to an absurd degree that they were gaslighting her emotions and analysis in effect. Thus Shadow Weaver became the opposite extreme.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watched the next three episodes.

Spoiler: s4e7-9

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Well.

[Expletive].

[Ramza00]

Writes down notes. Aotrs Commander does not like shanties!

[Thanqol]

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Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner in Neutral in alignment, yet she will gladly use the tools of Evil to further her goals. Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner is extremely pragmatic to an absurd degree, she is just opportunistic and has no higher rules just neutrallity to the point of amorality.

Weird Shadow Weaver takes ITT

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A) She is currently possessed by nightmare outsider eyeball monster. That never went away. That never stopped happening. She is literally an alien horror wearing Light Spinner's flesh like a cape.
B) She's an insanely abusive person who literally tortured baby Catra. She followed this up by continually doing the same thing for the rest of Catra's life, crushing Catra's worth, manipulating her emotions, and then discarding her like garbage.
C) Adora has just as much trauma from Shadow Weaver's upbringing, it just manifests in different ways. You know how Adora is so all-in on protecting other people, e.g. Glimmer? It's because as Shadow Weaver's favourite she inherently believes that she is responsible for the people around her getting hurt or not - because she was. If Catra failed, it was because she was worthless. If Adora failed, it was because Catra was holding her back.
D) She's the primary antagonist and final boss for the series. Of course she is. Her name is Shadow Weaver. She's growing a garden filled with corrupt and dying flowers that she is continuously shown as severing with enormous scissors. I don't think the show could be any more clear that She Is The Bad Guy.

Calling Shadow Weaver 'neutral mirror' is a spicy meatball of a take.

[Ramza00]

So Thangol instead of going point by point in response to you. Do you see Shadow Weaver as her own person anymore, or is she some Eldritch Horror? Does she have humanity, or is she an "alien monster" which is "the other?"

Do we foreground or background "the other" ? Can we work with "the other" once it is in foreground? Can we work with "the stranger" ?

[LaZodiac]

Weird Shadow Weaver takes ITT

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A) She is currently possessed by nightmare outsider eyeball monster. That never went away. That never stopped happening. She is literally an alien horror wearing Light Spinner's flesh like a cape.
B) She's an insanely abusive person who literally tortured baby Catra. She followed this up by continually doing the same thing for the rest of Catra's life, crushing Catra's worth, manipulating her emotions, and then discarding her like garbage.
C) Adora has just as much trauma from Shadow Weaver's upbringing, it just manifests in different ways. You know how Adora is so all-in on protecting other people, e.g. Glimmer? It's because as Shadow Weaver's favourite she inherently believes that she is responsible for the people around her getting hurt or not - because she was. If Catra failed, it was because she was worthless. If Adora failed, it was because Catra was holding her back.
D) She's the primary antagonist and final boss for the series. Of course she is. Her name is Shadow Weaver. She's growing a garden filled with corrupt and dying flowers that she is continuously shown as severing with enormous scissors. I don't think the show could be any more clear that She Is The Bad Guy.

Calling Shadow Weaver 'neutral mirror' is a spicy meatball of a take.

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You're not wrong that Shadow Weaver was an absolute monster.

But like... those plants aren't dying. They're just spooky looking. It's her aesthetic. And pruning scissors are just that big, that happens!

[The Fury]

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You're not wrong that Shadow Weaver was an absolute monster.

But like... those plants aren't dying. They're just spooky looking. It's her aesthetic. And pruning scissors are just that big, that happens!

Spoiler: More Shadow Weaver stuff

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Well, except for the daisies. (She finds them cheerful.)

It could be that Shadow Weaver is earnestly trying to turn over a new leaf. But the things she's done are quite a lot to forgive, so Adora is right to be skeptical of her. After all, Shadow Weaver has left Adora with some emotional trauma to work through. Now that she's acting as and advisor to Glimmer, it's understandable Adora thinks that Shadow Weaver might be in a position to hurt one of her friends again.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: More Shadow Weaver stuff

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Well, except for the daisies. (She finds them cheerful.)

It could be that Shadow Weaver is earnestly trying to turn over a new leaf. But the things she's done are quite a lot to forgive, so Adora is right to be skeptical of her. After all, Shadow Weaver has left Adora with some emotional trauma to work through. Now that she's acting as and advisor to Glimmer, it's understandable Adora thinks that Shadow Weaver might be in a position to hurt one of her friends again.

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Oh absolutely. Shadow Weaver is a known abuser with basically no morals. But she is trying, and is accepting the justified hate quite well all things considered. The only time she even got annoyed is the general sort of "Scorpia please I'm trying to garden" frustration.

I do think she's trying to turn over a new leaf. I know Adora is sure there's nothing but more of the same under it. I think she's wrong, though.

[Ramza00]

Just a reminder about Shadow Weaver.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver Stuff

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Different cultures have different words and different concepts, so there are other ways to describe what I am about to say here. But let's remember.

Shadow Weaver has not asked for forgiveness from others, let alone the specific people she was negligent and wicked to.

Shadow Weaver has not tried to atone to individuals or any form of group atonement.

Shadow Weaver has not tried repent, which requires reviewings one actions and after doing so feel regret for ones past actions, remorse for one's actions, asking for pennice for one feels guilt, etc.

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When I describe Shadow Weaver as "Neutral" or a "Mirror" I am not saying Shadow Weaver is not wicked, she is the definition of wickedness and trespass. She just never did the actions for the sake of being evil, no she thought her evil was in service to some greater good, or towards growth, or something else to this extent. Of course this is all self serving justifications and if you do a full inventory you would see that Shadow Weaver may not have been evil for the sake of doing evil, yet she was the definition of wicked, and she did harm to people she should have cared for. She overdid it ... a whole lot.

Maybe Shadow Weaver has turned over a new leaf in the present, but she has not tried to "square the circle" of her past actions, she has not tried to repent, ask for forgiveness (which is a thing between two people, and the person who was harmed has no obligation to grant), and atonement (which is between not individuals but the greater community, the greater world.

Just wanting to let my opinions of the Shadow Weaver matter a little more clear.

[LaZodiac]

Just a reminder about Shadow Weaver.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver Stuff

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Different cultures have different words and different concepts, so there are other ways to describe what I am about to say here. But let's remember.

Shadow Weaver has not asked for forgiveness from others, let alone the specific people she was negligent and wicked to.

Shadow Weaver has not tried to atone to individuals or any form of group atonement.

Shadow Weaver has not tried repent, which requires reviewings one actions and after doing so feel regret for ones past actions, remorse for one's actions, asking for pennice for one feels guilt, etc.

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When I describe Shadow Weaver as "Neutral" or a "Mirror" I am not saying Shadow Weaver is not wicked, she is the definition of wickedness and trespass. She just never did the actions for the sake of being evil, no she thought her evil was in service to some greater good, or towards growth, or something else to this extent. Of course this is all self serving justifications and if you do a full inventory you would see that Shadow Weaver may not have been evil for the sake of doing evil, yet she was the definition of wicked, and she did harm to people she should have cared for. She overdid it ... a whole lot.

Maybe Shadow Weaver has turned over a new leaf in the present, but she has not tried to "square the circle" of her past actions, she has not tried to repent, ask for forgiveness (which is a thing between two people, and the person who was harmed has no obligation to grant), and atonement (which is between not individuals but the greater community, the greater world.

Just wanting to let my opinions of the Shadow Weaver matter a little more clear.

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I mean... it's true she hasn't asked for forgiveness but the other ones I don't think are valid. Shadow Weaver strikes me as the type to not ever ask for forgiveness, but to try and earn it, and to know she probably does't deserve it and also probably don't CARE much, beyond her actual motherly feelings for Adora that she does have, horrible abuse or not.

As for the other though... she has done basically everything she can to help the good guys win, despite constantly being threatened and looked at suspiciously. She's done nothing to betray the trust Glimmer does put in her in this season and does seem, to me at least, to be trying in her own way to make amends.

Again, if Shadow Weaver was truly evil, she wouldn't have stopped Glimmer from doing an act that risked destroying the planet. She tried to stop her.

[Thanqol]

So Thangol instead of going point by point in response to you. Do you see Shadow Weaver as her own person anymore, or is she some Eldritch Horror? Does she have humanity, or is she an "alien monster" which is "the other?"

Do we foreground or background "the other" ? Can we work with "the other" once it is in foreground? Can we work with "the stranger" ?

She's been possessed by the thing for over forty years at this point, I don't think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between them.

Unspoilering this because this is all pre-S4 content

Just a reminder about Shadow Weaver.


When I describe Shadow Weaver as "Neutral" or a "Mirror" I am not saying Shadow Weaver is not wicked, she is the definition of wickedness and trespass. She just never did the actions for the sake of being evil, no she thought her evil was in service to some greater good, or towards growth, or something else to this extent. Of course this is all self serving justifications and if you do a full inventory you would see that Shadow Weaver may not have been evil for the sake of doing evil, yet she was the definition of wicked, and she did harm to people she should have cared for. She overdid it ... a whole lot.

This is a really weird definition. If you take a spiteful, abusive literally-possessed-by-forbidden-magic monster who tortures baby catgirls and say that it's not evil because evil is defined as 'motivated by the ideology of evil for its own sake' then you have literally redefined the term evil to be inapplicable to anyone or anything (except maybe AortS Commander who self-identifies as motivated by evil).

I've got a broader definition of evil. It means I call more things evil, but it also means I don't have to make weird semantic distinctions where I have to explain how torturing baby catgirls is wicked but not evil because she's just darn overdoing it in the pursuit of the greater good!

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 2: Ambiguous Redemption Boogaloo

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Yeah, season 4 Shadow Weaver is interesting. her gardener aesthetic is kind of a metaphor for how she treats people: she grows them for her uses, but also cuts off the parts she doesn't like with pruning. She has good points and sensible reasons for her advice, but that doesn't mean she isn't repeating her mistakes here.

look, she isn't even focusing on Adora anymore. Instead she has transferred her focus to making Glimmer grow to her purposes....but then Glimmer like Adora and Catra before Glimmer makes decisions and misinterprets or rejects her advice. for some reason, Shadow Weaver keeps trying to advise and encourage reckless hot tempered yet powerful people prone to making stupid short term decisions and not being able to get across to them to be more cautious.

like Shadow Weaver has shown to be very cautious, cool-headed and able to think her actions through. She didn't want to Glimmer to just activate the Heart of Etheria recklessly, even though she approved using it. She is like Tarquin from OOTS in that aspect: power one cannot control is no power at all. Shadow Weaver would probably have wanted Glimmer to slow down and see how to use the weapon effectively within their control instead of someone else's. its just that well, she is working with hot-headed teenagers who don't grasp subtleties like that.

and still, pretty much everything that has happened can be traced back to Shadow Weavers actions at the beginning, but she doesn't seem to care about the wider consequences of her actions outside of her concerns and interests, only upon whatever project she wants to work on at the moment. like Double Trouble, she works for whatever side is willing to let her, she is opportunistic, flexible and focused on how to turn the situation to her advantage.

how "good" she truly is, if such words can be applied to someone who is so manipulative and self-centered that any attempt to confront her about her morality would only result in her putting on act to convince you that she has changed to suit your viewpoint then turn around and do whatever she wants anyways- because that IS a thing sociopaths can do and is a reason why psychologists are warned not to try believe they can get through to them- will depend on how she adapts to Horde Prime. its very possible that her response will be, like Catra's, to convince Horde Prime she is useful to him at some point and join his side for her own gain. just because her evil is dormant, doesn't mean it goes away.

like sure, the gardening is probably is just her hobby and she probably does mean to advise Glimmer well, and I don't think she has a long game. its just that, she is this unique brand of evil that despite being manipulative, reasonable, cool-headed and intelligent, does not realize just how much damage her actions do to others or how much she is truly at fault for, since she does not take morality good or bad into account- just logic and the dangers of wielding power. I'd place her as an evil thats been on their side for two seasons rather than a good guy and somewhat helped glimmer do the wrong actions. just like I'd say that Scorpia is a good guy who was the Horde's side.

in short: Rebellion =/= good guys, not entirely, and Horde =/= evil. they're political entities that make up most of one or the other, but Scorpia and Shadow-Weaver are the two exceptions.

Scorpia is the good person on the Horde side being friendly and helpful to everyone.
Shadow-weaver is the evil person the Rebellion side being manipulative and creepy to everyone.

The point being, the social methods and attitudes that one uses to interact with people determines more about your personal goodness than the overall alignment with some outside political force. Scorpia when she left, well- she was basically the heart for the Horde, everyone except Hordak just broke down without her and things just couldn't function without her being the support Catra and others needed. while Shadow weavers presence helped drive a wedge between Glimmer and Adora even though Shadow Weaver wasn't even trying to do that, simply because she is Shadow Weaver.

Even if we give Shadow Weaver the full benefit of the doubt and say that she is good now in Season 4 all the way-there is still the fact her advice even after Double Trouble were captured made Glimmer cause this whole disaster that basically made Etheria defenseless and ripe for Horde Prime's taking. whats negative about shadow weaver, the thing that keeps screwing people over is her process and methods, not whatever her goal is, because whatever her goal is, does not seem as important as the fact her manipulative methods and mentoring leads to catastrophic fallout and collateral damage. considering that she switched from Adora to Glimmer real quick, she just seems to want nurture power in whoever she finds it in and make sure its used to her ends and thus also use properly, because an uncontrolled tool is useless. problem is, no matter her intentions, she is still using people like tools and teaching others to use people as tools as well, like Glimmer being taught to use Adora as a distraction during war, which while can be reasonable in the context of battle, becomes evil when extended to other things.


TLDR: Shadow Weaver's moral or political change doesn't matter as much as her social change- socially, she is still the same manipulative person she has always been. and that can be bad even with the best of intentions behind it, as Glimmer found out.

[DigoDragon]

Weird Shadow Weaver takes ITT

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D) She's the primary antagonist and final boss for the series. Of course she is. Her name is Shadow Weaver. She's growing a garden filled with corrupt and dying flowers that she is continuously shown as severing with enormous scissors. I don't think the show could be any more clear that She Is The Bad Guy.

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I wonder if she'll turn out to be this show's version of Starlight Glimmer--was a primary villain and turned to the good side without really ever changing her ways, and yet never doing anything truly evil again to keep that status as a villain.

[Celestia]

She's been possessed by the thing for over forty years at this point, I don't think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between them.

I really don't think Micah is in his mid to late 50s.

[Ramza00]

This is a really weird definition. If you take a spiteful, abusive literally-possessed-by-forbidden-magic monster who tortures baby catgirls and say that it's not evil because evil is defined as 'motivated by the ideology of evil for its own sake' then you have literally redefined the term evil to be inapplicable to anyone or anything (except maybe AortS Commander who self-identifies as motivated by evil).

I've got a broader definition of evil. It means I call more things evil, but it also means I don't have to make weird semantic distinctions where I have to explain how torturing baby catgirls is wicked but not evil because she's just darn overdoing it in the pursuit of the greater good!

It is not weird semantic distinctions, every culture has multiple words for evil for there are multiple ideas of evil, its nature, its root causes, can people be redeemed, etc.

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Explains one of the key differences via using an anime metaphor. Many definitions of evil use a language root where evil is a corruption. These versions of the word "evil" descend from other words with similar roots, and those similar roots imply

"inner malice"
"foul"
"rotten" (poisoned)
"defecation"

Pretty much a person is evil, for there is something broken inside of them. Like a fish when captured and skinned if part of it is rotten the whole fish is rotten and not suitable for eating.

But there are other words we use that mean evil and have a different language root origin and thus suggest different causes of evil, and also different solutions of evil and whether things can be forgiven, or if the person is always bad.

Take the anime with Lady Eboshi, Princess Mononoke.

Was the Boar God who had a lump of metal inside of they, was the boar god evil?
Was A****aka evil when he touched the boar god and he gain that corruption on his skin that slowly will kill him?
Was Lady Eboshi evil even though she had no inner corruption, no sickness, no bullet inside of her, yet simultaneously she was disrupting the balance of everything in the environment?
What is evil in Princess Mononoke is Evil just a byproduct of the actions we perform?

What is the difference between Lady Eboshi and Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner? To my eyes they seem to be performing the same type of evil in the world with Shadow Weaver vs the "community." Is the difference that Shadow Waver did abuse plus neglect to Catra and Adora? [And yes it was the definition of abuse and neglect.] Well the counter argument was that Shadow Weaver did not intend to do abuse and neglect but instead thinking her ****ty parenting methods would make her two charges stronger [in reality they made them brittle and manipulatable], does abusing Cat girls make Shadow Weaver always evil, always rotten to the core, always untrustworthy, always going to do some big grand betrayal and end up as the final boss? If you say so ... then I have to ask you Thanqol why is this the case?

[Lord Raziere]

It is not weird semantic distinctions, every culture has multiple words for evil for there are multiple ideas of evil, its nature, its root causes, can people be redeemed, etc.

Which is meaningless, because cultures are inherently meaningless, limited constructs that cannot be relied upon to make judgments of morality.

[Ramza00]

Which is meaningless, because cultures are inherently meaningless, limited constructs that cannot be relied upon to make judgments of morality.

I disagree, language and culture are aspects of shared meaning. There is no private language that is actually a language.

Languages only exist when two or more people have at least a partial understanding of what is being conveyed. Partial does not mean absolute for nothing in life is absolute.

[The Fury]

I wanted to respond to a couple points here.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 2: Ambiguous Redemption Boogaloo

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The point being, the social methods and attitudes that one uses to interact with people determines more about your personal goodness than the overall alignment with some outside political force. Scorpia when she left, well- she was basically the heart for the Horde, everyone except Hordak just broke down without her and things just couldn't function without her being the support Catra and others needed. while Shadow weavers presence helped drive a wedge between Glimmer and Adora even though Shadow Weaver wasn't even trying to do that, simply because she is Shadow Weaver.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 3: Under The Mask

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There's a subtle line in the episode where the princesses suspect that there's a spy in Brightmoon. Adora is convinced that it's Shadow Weaver. Shadow Weaver responds by turning to Glimmer and saying, "She's always been this paranoid, you know."
Glimmer stiffles a laugh, while Adora looks somewhat offended.

It's worth keeping in mind that the times Adora was "paranoid" about Shadow Weaver, Shadow Weaver really was trying to manipulate her again. It could be that the rift between Glimmer and Adora formed just because Shadow Weaver is who she is, Shadow Weaver doesn't have any problem exploiting that rift or even making it worse.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 2: Ambiguous Redemption Boogaloo

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Even if we give Shadow Weaver the full benefit of the doubt and say that she is good now in Season 4 all the way-there is still the fact her advice even after Double Trouble were captured made Glimmer cause this whole disaster that basically made Etheria defenseless and ripe for Horde Prime's taking. whats negative about shadow weaver, the thing that keeps screwing people over is her process and methods, not whatever her goal is, because whatever her goal is, does not seem as important as the fact her manipulative methods and mentoring leads to catastrophic fallout and collateral damage. considering that she switched from Adora to Glimmer real quick, she just seems to want nurture power in whoever she finds it in and make sure its used to her ends and thus also use properly, because an uncontrolled tool is useless. problem is, no matter her intentions, she is still using people like tools and teaching others to use people as tools as well, like Glimmer being taught to use Adora as a distraction during war, which while can be reasonable in the context of battle, becomes evil when extended to other things.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 4: Spooky Flower Gardening Show

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I think you're really right on the money with the "an uncontrolled tool is useless" remark. It informs a lot about Shadow Weaver as a person if she thinks of people as tools. Why did she favor Adora over Catra? She couldn't contol Catra and an uncontrolled tool is useless. Why did she switch to Glimmer over Adora? Adora is resisting her control and an uncontrolled tool is useless.

[Thanqol]

I really don't think Micah is in his mid to late 50s.

Why not? Glimmer is like 20, and he was at least 10 when shadow weaver started training him.

What is the difference between Lady Eboshi and Shadow Weaver / Light Spinner? To my eyes they seem to be performing the same type of evil in the world with Shadow Weaver vs the "community." Is the difference that Shadow Waver did abuse plus neglect to Catra and Adora? [And yes it was the definition of abuse and neglect.] Well the counter argument was that Shadow Weaver did not intend to do abuse and neglect but instead thinking her ****ty parenting methods would make her two charges stronger [in reality they made them brittle and manipulatable], does abusing Cat girls make Shadow Weaver always evil, always rotten to the core, always untrustworthy, always going to do some big grand betrayal and end up as the final boss? If you say so ... then I have to ask you Thanqol why is this the case?

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So I'm going to make two points.

One is because that's just what's going to happen. Shadow Weaver and Horde Prime are the only two actually evil people in the show. The show is not particularly subtle about this. All the evil that happens in the show is sourced from those two directly; everyone else is a victim. She Ra is in a very real sense a show about the abuse and there is no way that the writers are going to give a free pass to the two ur-abusers. Maybe you missed the foreshadowing? Do you think that trusting the crazy possessed manipulation lady in the cracked mask who is psychotically desperate to claim control of another runestone so she can be powerful again is a plot thread that's just gonna dangle?

The other is because Shadow Weaver, as a person, is the worst. You're seriously looking to contrast Lady "I wash the feet of lepers" Eboshi to Shadow Weaver? Shadow Weaver's whole character is that she manipulates, uses, abuses and discards children for her own ends. She started with Micah, she went on to Adora and Catra, and now she's doing the exact same thing with Glimmer. There is no break or change in her behaviour! She's still doing it! She's oiling her way into Glimmer's head and trying to replace her mom! Are you for real in just calling that bad parenting? You don't think she's going to seize control of the Brightmoon Runestone as soon as the opportunity arises?

Shadow Weaver's endgame was never a strong Catra! I literally cannot fathom how you came to that conclusion! It's explicitly a thing that happened where she told Catra that she pushed her hard to make her strong in order to win Catra's affection and then in the next second manipulates, uses, betrays, and discards Catra in her defection to the Rebellion. She didn't do that for Catra. She did that for herself. She didn't train Micah for Micah. She trained him so that he could help her cast powerful magic and abandoned him afterwards! She'll never stop! This is her entire character! I can't believe I have to say this but don't believe her lies

[Mystic Muse]

Spoiler: shadow Weaver

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I honestly think that the way people are arguing over whether Shadow Weaver is doing a legitimate Heel Face turn just means the writers succeeded in writing a very good, charismatic villain.

I have no opinion either way about which direction things will go.

The only person I'm convinced is marked for death is Horde Prime.

[Ramza00]

Why not? Glimmer is like 20, and he was at least 10 when shadow weaver started training him.

Spoiler

Show

So I'm going to make two points.

One is because that's just what's going to happen. Shadow Weaver and Horde Prime are the only two actually evil people in the show. The show is not particularly subtle about this. All the evil that happens in the show is sourced from those two directly; everyone else is a victim. She Ra is in a very real sense a show about the abuse and there is no way that the writers are going to give a free pass to the two ur-abusers. Maybe you missed the foreshadowing? Do you think that trusting the crazy possessed manipulation lady in the cracked mask who is psychotically desperate to claim control of another runestone so she can be powerful again is a plot thread that's just gonna dangle?

The other is because Shadow Weaver, as a person, is the worst. You're seriously looking to contrast Lady "I wash the feet of lepers" Eboshi to Shadow Weaver? Shadow Weaver's whole character is that she manipulates, uses, abuses and discards children for her own ends. She started with Micah, she went on to Adora and Catra, and now she's doing the exact same thing with Glimmer. There is no break or change in her behaviour! She's still doing it! She's oiling her way into Glimmer's head and trying to replace her mom! Are you for real in just calling that bad parenting? You don't think she's going to seize control of the Brightmoon Runestone as soon as the opportunity arises?

Shadow Weaver's endgame was never a strong Catra! I literally cannot fathom how you came to that conclusion! It's explicitly a thing that happened where she told Catra that she pushed her hard to make her strong in order to win Catra's affection and then in the next second manipulates, uses, betrays, and discards Catra in her defection to the Rebellion. She didn't do that for Catra. She did that for herself. She didn't train Micah for Micah. She trained him so that he could help her cast powerful magic and abandoned him afterwards! She'll never stop! This is her entire character! I can't believe I have to say this but don't believe her lies

We are in agreement but in disagreement about one thing. And thus the cycle of history repeats itself in season 4.

Spoiler: Some of us see Shadow Weaver

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Some of us see Shadow Weaver as an abuse victim as well. [1) And being an abuse victim does not excuse Shadow Weaver from doing abuse to others. 2) Shadow Weaver Abuse is an order of magnitude worse than what Light Spinner experienced.]

And if you see Shadow Weaver as an abuse victim as well, your point of view shifts, for you see this as a cycle of abuse and how abuse reconstitutes even from noble actions. The Tragedy of Glimmer is Glimmer is noble yet she is unable to communicate, needs, desires, fears, united with empathy, but once united with empathy to be able to "think it out" and come up with a game plan with people who have different life experiences. Shadow Weaver and Glimmer are the same even though Glimmer does not abuse others, yet she is doing the exact same BS.

And Adora is acting just like Light Spinner did with Glimmer being the role that the Sorcerers of Mystacor played with Light Spinner.

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1) Criticism,
2) Defensiveness,
3) Stonewalling,
4) Contempt. (Not Anger, not Disgust, but when you layer Anger + Disgust together and you create Contempt and you believe it is impossible that working together is possible.)

Those are the 4 things that cause break down of relationships.

Criticism and Defensiveness in some ways can be seen as the same thing. You pointing out the flaws of other people and the other person does not feel being heard, understood, and you are not listening. Defensiveness is the opposite where you feel you are not able to put into voice things that are important.

Being able to point things out and "complain" is different than Criticism, the power to complain is the ability to point out that the status quo flow is not working, there is not harmony, and we need to fix this. Criticism though is attacking the person and making it personal, it is also making the thing universal and not just in a specific moment.

Likewise Defensiveness happens for we make a mistake and we feel we are not able to communicate why this happened and where to go from here. It is important to be able to question, but not demand an answer when you question for sometimes there is no good answer and this is okay and healthy.

Contempt and Stonewalling are also tied together. When you voice Contempt you are truly mean and look at how "meanness" is used to manipulate people in She-Ra. When you add Contempt / being mean everything changes, and Stonewalling is a defense mechanism in order to avoid this meanness but the problem with Stonewalling is the relationship is pretty much already over.

-----

Look at how the Sorcerers of Mystacore "gaslight" Light Spinner. All of complaints and critiques that Light Spinner brought up about the rising horde threat were valid! All is well the Sorcerers said, the princess will handle it even though not all was well and the Princesses were not handling it. Know your place Light Spinner. "Civility" and the image that is the Sorcerers of Mystacore is paramount and thus you must be quiet.

Thus Light Spinner cracked and did something that may have been the right call or may not have been the right call [we need to know more about how the spell of obtainment, planet magic, what those void things are, etc and how all of this works.] Or Light Spinner could have joined the Princess rebellion, or something, but what was the status quo is not working both in Light Spinner's time and in Season 4 of She-Ra.

-----

Shadow Weaver is both simultaneously an abuse victim, and she also use abuse tactics repeating the cycle, and she is far worse than the Sorcerers of Mystacore did to Light Spinner. But I think that is part of the theme of She-Ra. Even though Glimmer's intentions were noble she screws up, and same thing with Adora even if her intentions are noble she screws up. And the virtue is not being right intellectually, but instead finding communication strategies with others for doing so helps balance one another. To tap into your own inner strength but also to be open to feedback from others for this feedback can help inspire you, to help balance you, and so on.

And while Light Spinner is an abuse victim to become Shadow Weaver, Catra is an abuse victim that became just as much of a monster that Shadow Weaver is. Being an abuse victim does not excuse your wickedness. And even if your wickedness to society is minor, it does not excuse your wickedness you do to specific individuals such as family and friends. There is no excuse. It is not a question about good vs evil, no it is a question about responsibility, duty, obligation, healthy boundaries, support systems, etc.

At least that is what I got from the themes of She-Ra, feel free to disagree.

-----

Edit: Sidenote in the previous thread people were trying to assign an alignment to Entrapta and whether her behavior was Neutral or Evil in the D&D scale. Well I think that conversation much like the shadow weaver discussion shows the limits of only using one form of language metaphor model to describe evil, and how you need multiple types of models to be able to describe real human behavior, and not simplistic 2D dimensional cartoon villains. Yes Entrapta was doing evil, but is it evil or neutral in the D&D sense with their language definitions of the alignment axis.

I am glad a child show is able to talk about these topics with nuance and understanding.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: shadow Weaver

Show

I honestly think that the way people are arguing over whether Shadow Weaver is doing a legitimate Heel Face turn just means the writers succeeded in writing a very good, charismatic villain.

I have no opinion either way about which direction things will go.

The only person I'm convinced is marked for death is Horde Prime.

Spoiler

Show

Yeah I had that same thought. Regardless of which way her coin ends up landing, they succeeded in making a character who we're very unsure of where she'll land. It's great.

Also yeah absolutely Horde Prime has to like, Die Die.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

So I'm going to make two points.

One is because that's just what's going to happen. Shadow Weaver and Horde Prime are the only two actually evil people in the show. The show is not particularly subtle about this. All the evil that happens in the show is sourced from those two directly; everyone else is a victim. She Ra is in a very real sense a show about the abuse and there is no way that the writers are going to give a free pass to the two ur-abusers. Maybe you missed the foreshadowing? Do you think that trusting the crazy possessed manipulation lady in the cracked mask who is psychotically desperate to claim control of another runestone so she can be powerful again is a plot thread that's just gonna dangle?

The other is because Shadow Weaver, as a person, is the worst. You're seriously looking to contrast Lady "I wash the feet of lepers" Eboshi to Shadow Weaver? Shadow Weaver's whole character is that she manipulates, uses, abuses and discards children for her own ends. She started with Micah, she went on to Adora and Catra, and now she's doing the exact same thing with Glimmer. There is no break or change in her behaviour! She's still doing it! She's oiling her way into Glimmer's head and trying to replace her mom! Are you for real in just calling that bad parenting? You don't think she's going to seize control of the Brightmoon Runestone as soon as the opportunity arises?

Shadow Weaver's endgame was never a strong Catra! I literally cannot fathom how you came to that conclusion! It's explicitly a thing that happened where she told Catra that she pushed her hard to make her strong in order to win Catra's affection and then in the next second manipulates, uses, betrays, and discards Catra in her defection to the Rebellion. She didn't do that for Catra. She did that for herself. She didn't train Micah for Micah. She trained him so that he could help her cast powerful magic and abandoned him afterwards! She'll never stop! This is her entire character! I can't believe I have to say this but don't believe her lies

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 5: Agreed.

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Thats what I keep saying!

Never trust shadow weaver! Nothing good has come of doing so, AGAIN. Nothing good came of Micah trusting her in the backstory, nothing good came of Catra trusting her in Season 2, nothing good came of Adora getting info out of her in season 3, and nothing good came of Glimmer trusting her in Season 4.

Never. Ever. Trust. Shadow Weaver. She is arguably the cause of everything bad in this show aside from the existence of the Horde. I'd say you shouldn't trust her regardless of her moral status, but if someone isn't trustworthy because their advice keeps causing the greatest disasters on the planet to happen, that is likely villainous enough in its own right to just admit she is evil just not in the direct "I'm going to conquer everything now muahaha" way.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 5: Agreed.

Show

Thats what I keep saying!

Never trust shadow weaver! Nothing good has come of doing so, AGAIN. Nothing good came of Micah trusting her in the backstory, nothing good came of Catra trusting her in Season 2, nothing good came of Adora getting info out of her in season 3, and nothing good came of Glimmer trusting her in Season 4.

Never. Ever. Trust. Shadow Weaver. She is arguably the cause of everything bad in this show aside from the existence of the Horde. I'd say you shouldn't trust her regardless of her moral status, but if someone isn't trustworthy because their advice keeps causing the greatest disasters on the planet to happen, that is likely villainous enough in its own right to just admit she is evil just not in the direct "I'm going to conquer everything now muahaha" way.

*Nods in agreement.*

[Thanqol]

We are in agreement but in disagreement about one thing. And thus the cycle of history repeats itself in season 4.

Spoiler: Some of us see Shadow Weaver

Show

Look at how the Sorcerers of Mystacore "gaslight" Light Spinner. All of complaints and critiques that Light Spinner brought up about the rising horde threat were valid! All is well the Sorcerers said, the princess will handle it even though not all was well and the Princesses were not handling it. Know your place Light Spinner. "Civility" and the image that is the Sorcerers of Mystacore is paramount and thus you must be quiet.

Thus Light Spinner cracked and did something that may have been the right call or may not have been the right call [we need to know more about how the spell of obtainment, planet magic, what those void things are, etc and how all of this works.] Or Light Spinner could have joined the Princess rebellion, or something, but what was the status quo is not working both in Light Spinner's time and in Season 4 of She-Ra.

Spoiler

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I am very unconvinced by this argument. It's not abusing someone to tell them to not summon a nightmare space horror, or gaslighting them to make a political decision to trust the planet's previously undefeated military force. Shadow Weaver is making a greedy and ambitious play for power that is completely reasonably considered forbidden. If she really believed in the danger of the Horde and wanted to do the right thing she wouldn't have defected to them five seconds after gaining that power!

We also know that the horror didn't force her to join the Horde because she's proven that she's just as capable of flipping to the Rebellion when it suits her! If she genuinely believed anything she said she would have used her new arcane power to fight the Horde instead of selling out to them in exchange for access to their Runestone - e.g. more power for Shadow Weaver. That's the common thread here. More power for Shadow Weaver. It doesn't matter who she has to use to get that power or what ideals she has to betray! She only has one goal, and has only ever had one goal: more power for Shadow Weaver.


EDIT ALSO: She assisted the Horde in the kidnap of Micah, his exile to Beast Island. She knew for a fact that he was still alive and deliberately withheld that information from Glimmer. He was just a thing to her. She has not turned over a new leaf.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver 5: Agreed.

Show

Thats what I keep saying!

Never trust shadow weaver! Nothing good has come of doing so, AGAIN. Nothing good came of Micah trusting her in the backstory, nothing good came of Catra trusting her in Season 2, nothing good came of Adora getting info out of her in season 3, and nothing good came of Glimmer trusting her in Season 4.

Never. Ever. Trust. Shadow Weaver. She is arguably the cause of everything bad in this show aside from the existence of the Horde. I'd say you shouldn't trust her regardless of her moral status, but if someone isn't trustworthy because their advice keeps causing the greatest disasters on the planet to happen, that is likely villainous enough in its own right to just admit she is evil just not in the direct "I'm going to conquer everything now muahaha" way.

Spoiler

Show

I don't remember what went wrong with trusting Shadow Weaver in season 3, but I'll note that trusting Shadow Weaver would have worked out fine if Glimmer didn't run off half-cocked with Scorpia to touch her magic rock.

[The Fury]

Spoiler: shadow Weaver

Show

I honestly think that the way people are arguing over whether Shadow Weaver is doing a legitimate Heel Face turn just means the writers succeeded in writing a very good, charismatic villain.

I have no opinion either way about which direction things will go.

The only person I'm convinced is marked for death is Horde Prime.

Spoiler: Shadow Weaver and others

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I agree completely. The She-Ra crew and voice actors deserve massive kudos for making some compelling and complex antagonists. Not a lot to add to that, I just like to give credit where it's due.

Spoiler

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EDIT ALSO: She assisted the Horde in the kidnap of Micah, his exile to Beast Island. She knew for a fact that he was still alive and deliberately withheld that information from Glimmer. He was just a thing to her. She has not turned over a new leaf.

Spoiler: Even more Shadow Weaver stuff

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Not quite. Shadow Weaver almost certainly knew that Micah was sent to Beast Island, sure, but she probably didn't know that he was still alive. Indeed, it's pretty impressive that Micah stayed alive on Beast Island as long as he did.

[Ramza00]

Shadow Weaver influence in Season 3 Episode 1 of She-Ra and Season 3 Episode 4 of She-Ra sets up the conflict for Season 4 of She-Ra and barely any of the stuff with Episode 5 or 6.

Adora

1) The Adults are distrustful of Shadow Weaver immediately and it sets up a conflict between Adult and the Younger Trio thus disabling support systems by this conflict. There is a disagreement of what to do with Shadow Weaver immediately merely by her presence. This is not intentional manipulation of Shadow Weaver but Shadow Weaver's past behavior made this effect immediate and inevitable.

2) As soon as Shadow Weaver was in Brightmoon Adora personality change and she "put on a mask of professionalism" but this is a false mask and it cuts her off from support systems once again. Adora becomes hyper-vigilant not wanting Shadow Weaver to hurt anyone else much like Shadow Weaver manipulated Adora through her friends such as Catra in the past. Shadow Weaver tries to manipulate Adora and Adora instantly sees through it. Adora heals Shadow Weaver.

3) Shadow Weaver tells the Horde's plans (let's come back to this later.)

4) Adora is revealed her past in a dramatic fashion and a way that was manipulative once again to sow distrust and create inside and outside groups. Adora is first-one, she is not like you the princesses. Furthermore Adora now distrusts Light Hope even though it is unlikely Shadow Weaver knows about the Light Hope connection and how that is a support system, and how to remove that support system from Adora.

5) Regardless these previous 4 actions combine with Adora's predictable trauma puts Adora in quest mode that never ends due to this hypervigilance. Adora must save everyone, Adora must be perfect, or else someone gets hurt and it would be her fault, much like Shadow Weaver would punish Catra for Adora's mistakes as a child.

Glimmer
To understand how Glimmer changed over the seasons do not look to the most recent Season 4 but instead look at Glimmer's body language in Season 3. Her body language reveals everything in ways that Glimmer words do not.

3) When Shadow Weaver tells the Horde's plans, Glimmer *NEEDS* to counter this idea for Glimmer has already lost so much to the Horde and fear is tied to everything that Glimmer does as action in Season 1 to 4. Glimmer wants to act for the phobia of not acting means other people have agency and control and Glimmer is merely reacting, putting out fires, and never solving the problem. This is why Glimmer disagrees with her mother in Season 1 about the nature of The Princess Alliance. Glimmer actions were always tied to fear, loss, craving security and so on. Glimmer body language is easily the most dramatic in the Season 3 Episode 1 exchange of Shadow Weaver. Glimmer craves security and what is one way to gain security...via magical power.

6) When Adora was captured by Catra in Season 3, Glimmer is freaking out for this is stakes you can not recover from when you make a mistake. There is an excessive amount of light / shadow imagery and Glimmers being fascinated in Season 3 Episode 4 in various exchanges between Glimmer and her mother, and Glimmer and Shadow Weaver. Glimmer can see only bad ends and she feels the need to act and Angella is acting prudent maybe to a wise degree or to a foolish degree with how prudent Angella is being. Glimmer is being reactive and keep on articulating why action is needed, sustaining and expressing her concerns and no one will listen to her [no support system.] In comes Glimmer turning to Shadow Weaver and Shadow Weaver does not merely say she can solve the problem but also give Glimmer her heart's desire which is power. Glimmer craves power not for the sake of power, but because power can provide security and she fears the Horde's power and Hordak Prime's future armies. Glimmer craves power for she does not want to lose anyone like she lost her father Mikah, and then later on her mother Angella at the end of season 3. Glimmer had already crossed the event threshold which is in Season 3 Episode 4 and not in any Season 4 episodes. Once crossing the event threshold in Season 3 Episode 4 Glimmer had many opportunities to step back and re-evaluate but what is constant that prevents this re-evaluation is Glimmers fear and craving security which is every present constant. And thus even though the situation changed numerous times in Season 3 and Season 4, ever since Glimmer is exposed to a constant problem of Hordak Prime in Season 3 Episode 1, and then given a solution in Season 3 Episode 4 (Planetary Magic, Rune Stone Magic, learning Sorcery techniques) Glimmer will always take those choices she had already made and deep them even further for she thinks her choices will solve the conflict that she perceives.

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If I remember my film theory terms Shadow Weaver showing up in Season 3 Episode 01 and explaining there is a Hordak Prime is the "Inciting Incident." In Season 3 Episode 04 we get the "Point of Attack" which is how Glimmer has set in a choice that she will be resolute to in order to respond to the Inciting Incident. Glimmer will now trust and reply on Shadow Weaver for Shadow Weaver is offering her security that Glimmer craves. That security may not be actually through Shadow Weaver but Shadow Weaver will be the guide who helps tutor her, advises her, and connects her to other sources of power outside the princess alliance.

Understand the conflict between Adora and Glimmer is already existing in Season 3, but it becomes "broadcastly apparent" by Season 4 after it is now much harder to backtrack and resynchronize. Furthermore giving all these hints of them possibly could resynchronize but they choose not to in several episodes of Season 4 is designed to make it breathtakingly obvious the conflict between Adora and Glimmer is that neither of them are getting their needs met.