Corporate WW IC

[PartyOfRogues]

If Grek is proxy then Sysadmin should kill YoshiCline and tomorrow we can take care of the final wolf

[JeenLeen]

If Grek is proxy then Sysadmin should kill YoshiCline and tomorrow we can take care of the final wolf

Definitely.
Although my scry shows innocence for YoshiCline, it is possible it was confused if the Gambler got lucky or an Experimental Coder packet unlocked a scry.

---

Experimental Coder (kgato503 according to AV's chart) or anyone who received a code packet: want to shed light on what you did with Night actions? Might help us know for sure if YoshiCline is innocent or not.

EDIT: though we should take with a grain of salt if any of the dual-claimers say they received a packet and scried Yoshi, as could be trying to save their fellow wolf

[Xihirli]

Assuming you're talking about Bundles, I can nip that problem in the bud right away. I received Bundle A last night, and based on this quote,

Experimental Coder: You've been churning out new code nonstop, and at this point you're pretty sure your blood is 20% Red Bull. Every night you can choose a player to gain Bundle A, Bundle B, or Bundle C. This will give them a one-use power the next night in addition to their normal action. What do the bundles do? That's for the testers to figure out.

(Bolding mine)

I have the only bundle currently in play.

[Caerulea]

Caerulea, on the other hand, is a lying liar who lies.

See, Elenna keeps spreading blatent lies. Just what I was talking about.

Sure, sounds good to me. Although I can't help but point out that you don't suggest doing it the other way around...

- - - Updated - - -

Ignore that last sentence, I brainfarted. This way around is fine with me

I mean, I don't have any objection to that way, but I'm not sure if you want to just throw away your life for no gain. Whereas doing it this way ensures you die, so we kill a wolf. Actually, your way is better. Let's just have just me vote for Elenna, and nobody else vote.

[YoshiCline]

Joining the Grek train, I guess.

I'm currently at work, but I'll be back later to explain why you shouldn't night kill me.

[Xihirli]

If Grek's a wolf, that's the reason we shouldn't night kill you.

[YoshiCline]

Some people are saying to night kill me anyways on the off chance I'm a wolf and that I was double-scried last night rather than protecting myself as proxy.

However, if I were a wolf and claiming to be proxy (and Grek who is also clearly a wolf) then where is the real proxy? No one else has claimed it, nor has anyone who died had their role hidden. And nearly everyone else has publicly stated their role.

[Grek]

We're good enough that I feel comfortable sharing my role, even if it means a likely demise. If they kill me, the SYSADMIN is safe, and that role is more important now.

YoshiCline is the true Proxy.
I'm the Accountant. I scried him last night and got No Result. BoP had confirmed that a scry against the Proxy would yield no result. So either they really are the Proxy or someone got an additional scry somehow via Experimental Coder.

The list most assuredly has BS, but everything is true as it's been reported to me. You don't exactly see a whole buncha people going "that's not what I told AV my role is!" (and the reason is probably cuz they suspect I've got proof - which I do, photographic evidence ).

I'm sorry to say this, JeenLeen, but you dun screwed up. YoshiCline is indeed the Proxy. And I did, in fact fake-claim Proxy. Because I'm the SYSADMIN. Who is now decidedly Not Safe.

AvatarVecna wouldn't give people a straight answer one way or another as to whether she was going to reveal what everyone claimed, and I wasn't about to just out myself on an unconfirmed person's say-so, so I lied. I waffled for a bit between Retaliator (the obvious power move, but risky if the Accountant had the same idea) and Proxy (the next best option), but I ultimately decided to play it safe and claim as I did. When the claims became public (like I feared they would), I tried to keep quiet, fly under the radar and nudge people away from YoshiCline since I knew that they were also town and not a Wolf's fake-claim.

N1: No kill. Didn't want to fire blindly with a 75% chance of hitting town (four wolves, one dead, oblivionkeeper7 and myself both confirmed from my perspective).
N2: Unavenger. I made a point of arguing against the idea in thread in order to distance myself from the possibility that I was the SYSADMIN (and to also try to low-key nudge the Accountant toward investigating a Retaliator claim), but the plan was always to kill an IT Worker.

I imagine that after I post this, one of the two remaining Wolves (probably the Long Term Plant, but you never know) is going to counter claim. I leave it in the hands of the Town to judge how Wolfish I look vs how Wolfish the counter-claim looks. I know that I've been active, helpful and trying my best. I can only hope that y'all choose wisely.

kgato503: I used the experimental bundle you sent me on FlyingLemur (in hopes that it was a scry), but I've got no idea what it did. Maybe it protected him against a kill that never happened. Maybe it blocked his power role. Maybe he's immune to lynching or something. Who knows? Whatever it was, it didn't provide user feedback. Good luck on figuring out.

[flyinglemur]

I'm voting Grek. I have a feeling I know what's going on, they know they're going to die so they want to bait out the sysadmin with their claim, that way the last wolf can avoid the nightkill.

[kgato503]

...Yeah, I got nothing new or useful to add...

Grek.

[YoshiCline]

I dunno, I did voice my suspicions that Grek wasn't a wolf. Every other pair of dual claims have been arguing publicly trying to get the other lynched, but Grek and I flew so under the radar that no one really even brought it up. The only strategy I can think that explains this behavior is either: 1. Grek didn't want to start a public argument about it since it could lead to one of us dying early and they don't want a town death. 2. They are a wolf and the wolves have decided I'm a low priority kill due to my new-ness and relatively tame role.

[Grek]

Alright, me and Elenna have voted to call it here with permission from BasketOfPuppies. You got us, we're the Wolves.

Like I said in the WolfChat QT, there was only one way this game could really have turned out:

Never played a game where that was allowed - most of my experience was on MafiaScum which pretty much never allows the Town to PM. Going to have to work out the implications of this.

The obvious Worker move is for CEO's Child to DM-claim day one and solicit claims from everyone. This forces the Spies to each fake-claim a Worker role, narrowing down the range of suspects from fifteen to no more than eight and verifying the claims of the remaining seven while allowing the CEO's Child to inform those seven of everyone's claims (without telling us spies who claimed what).

<analysis cut for length>

I'm stumped for what our strategy should be. Thoughts?

Mass claims are REALLY STRONG when there's no good fake-claims available to the Wolves. In order to make this setup work despite that, you'd need something like six wolves to nine town and no CEO's Child. In that case, random lynches would see the Town win 50% of the time and the use of power roles would tip the balance toward the 60% Town win rate expected for a 6:9 matchup. But even then, it'd end pretty much the same way as this one: everybody knows who the remaining Wolves are, so you call it several nights early rather than go through the motions of playing it out. Or the Wolves get a majority and the same thing happens.

Something to keep in mind for next game. Looking forward to seeing you all there.

[gac3]

Oh dang. It's over. That was fun.

[Caerulea]

It was. Excellent job AvatarVecna.

I'll post a link to my game's recruitment thread in the WW center when I put it up. (It'll be up by 14:30).

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, me and Elenna have voted to call it here with permission from BasketOfPuppies. You got us, we're the Wolves.

Like I said in the WolfChat QT, there was only one way this game could really have turned out:
Mass claims are REALLY STRONG when there's no good fake-claims available to the Wolves. In order to make this setup work despite that, you'd need something like six wolves to nine town and no CEO's Child. In that case, random lynches would see the Town win 50% of the time and the use of power roles would tip the balance toward the 60% Town win rate expected for a 6:9 matchup. But even then, it'd end pretty much the same way as this one: everybody knows who the remaining Wolves are, so you call it several nights early rather than go through the motions of playing it out. Or the Wolves get a majority and the same thing happens.

Something to keep in mind for next game. Looking forward to seeing you all there.

Mass claims don't work nearly as well when they're out in public. When wolves get to see everything that's happening clear as day, they're able to coordinate their own claims with the knowledge of what town has already claimed. Doing something like this, publicly or privately, is a good way to get lied to a lot by people on both sides, which is exactly what happened...but if it's in private, then at the very least, the wolves can only claim with knowledge of the other wolf claims, and no knowledge of what the various townies are claiming, until everything is revealed.

Admittedly, my post-death plan wouldn't have worked half as well as it did if it weren't for two things:

1) The "Friendly Annoyance" was active, and contacted me N1. This gives me somebody I can talk to who is 100% town, and somebody I can share absolutely all my findings with: a vague timeline of some people being weirdly suspicious (which included Xihirli, even though she ended up being town...but that's Xihirli for you), my vague ramblings on why I was convinced Unavenger was a wolf, and a link to every single QT that I created (so...all the ones I was in that weren't my own role QT from BoP). EDIT: This point is also why I asked basically everybody, publicly and privately, if they'd been contacted by the Friendly Annoyance; I knew they hadn't been, so if anybody claimed to be...

2) BoP kinda accidentally confirmed YoshiCline. YC claimed to me after telling me "this is how this weird aspect of my power works, and that's why I now trust you", except then I immediately turned around and privately asked BoP about that exact same aspect of the Proxy's power. BoP answered differently, at which point I told Grek and PartyOfRouges about it...but then later YC told me they'd been misinformed about that aspect of their power, and BoP informed me of the same "they were misinformed, sorry" in private. I informed PoR of this, but not Grek, because they were basically narrator-indirectly-confirmed wolf at this point in my mind, but I didn't need to inform them of that.

This sets me up to use my post-death vote to indicate both who I trust and (as Xihirli twigged onto) who I don't. I only told two people to post that message; one who had tons and tons of info from me, and one who...only 'knew' YoshiCline was a wolf. A lot of townies, if they got the "message from beyond the grave" to post after my death, might ask why they haven't gotten tons of information from me if I trust them so much (hell, Xihirli was asking me that even though she didn't even get the message to pass on!), but a Wolf would take the opportunity to slide right into the network I'd formed.

EDIT: And yeah, it really didn't help that gac3 claimed my own role to me.

[gac3]

EDIT: And yeah, it really didn't help that gac3 claimed my own role to me.

Yeah. That really killed me. Literally I suppose

[AvatarVecna]

Also, very generally speaking, the problem with a 9:6 setup is that town...generally doesn't know what it's doing? Yeah, if lynches are assigned completely randomly, it screws with the wolves a bit, but with 6 wolves they have a lot of sway over who does and doesn't get lynched (could easily split their votes 2-2-1-1 on four townies, with the pairs being on major wagons that form). When all's said and done, unless the first Day/Night goes super-poorly for the wolves for some reason, or somebody pulls something absolutely absurd, Town loses the first two lynches at least before getting their head on straight...and a 9 town/6 wolf split means that after two mislynches, it's 6:6 and wolves have already won. You just can't have that many wolves. We even have a good idea of what that looks like: Wizard's Guild had four wolves, four neutrals, and 7 townies (7:4 is slightly better for town than 9:6 fractionally, and neutrals provide some cushion against the early mislynches), but that slight cushioning was basically completely undone by two townies being inactive and the Vig role refusing to work with the rest of town.

[Xihirli]

I don't think I would have believed your contingency claim if I hadn't figured it out for myself.
Not that I believe for a second that that's why you were so dodgy about it.

[JeenLeen]

So PartyOfRouges was the Friendly Annoyance and flyinglemur the SYSADMIN?

I was sad we lynched the Archivisit Day 1, but I think flyinglemur was the 2nd in the lead, so really glad we didn't get him.

[Xihirli]

Hey wolves, what was me and AV's "wonder twin" act?

[flyinglemur]

Good game everyone, I got to say, that whole plan was killer on your part Avatar Vecna. That practically won us the game. This is a story to tell, “that time Avatar Vecna pmd everyone at once and tricked all the wolves into revealing themselves.” While I’d love to take credit for Unavengers kill I was just did that based that on everyone else’s analysis.

[YoshiCline]

Ah dang, you gonna play me like that after I defended you, Grek? So now I'm curious - every other wolf made a public show about being the "real" role except for you, why?

[Xihirli]

And Gac3- why did you claim seer to me?

[gac3]

And Gac3- why did you claim seer to me?

Because it was a plan. I thought AV was the seer (though should have realized) and asked them if they thought I should claim to be seer to essentially do exactly what they did.

Edit: Ideally I would find at the very least get some information for the wolves to use.

[AvatarVecna]

Because it was a plan. I thought AV was the seer (though should have realized) and asked them if they thought I should claim to be seer to essentially do exactly what they did.

It's also worth mentioning that, at this point, gac3 had both claimed Contingency to me, and had magically come up with a "maybe I should PM everyone claiming I'm the seer" plan, so I was basically 100% convinced gac3 was a wolf (and also had suspicions about Unavenger and Xihirli). So we ended up planning on gac3 claiming seer to one person. I assumed he realized I must've PM'd all the townies as well, so I figured he'd pick a wolf so they could work together to sell me on whatever BS they were about to send my way; this seemed like a good plan to me, since I planned on dying anyway, giving all the real info to PartyOfRouges, and so this way I at least got two wolves for the price of one. Except then, instead of picking Unavenger, gac3 messaged Xihirli (which "confirmed" Xihirli's wolfness that I already suspected)...setting up a convenient "Xihirli can now claim to have two private seer claims for town to test", which sure enough got the actual seer claiming privately to Xihirli. It 100% looked like a wolf just got the seer to out themselves to the wolves (turning my plan a bit on its head), so I started pushing harder. Except it turned out no, Xihirli is town, this helps the network, and I have no idea why gac3 decided that telling Xihirli straight up that one of the two of us was definitely a wolf was a good idea.

[Grek]

Mass claims don't work nearly as well when they're out in public.

That's very easy to get around, even without allowing the town to PM. Have everyone make a 25 character message which includes their claim, then encode their claim via a Vigenère cipher based one time pad (ie. with a 25 character randomly generated key) before posting. After all the encoded claims are in, people post their decoded claims and the keys for authentication purposes. Games with large numbers of wolves by volume are very unfun, but they're also one of the few ways to balance a scenario with no duplicate/unknown roles for a wolf to fake-claim as. (The other option, giving the wolves very very strong power roles, is perhaps more !!fun!! in the dwarf fortress sense of the term, but even less likely to be balanced.) The real moral of the story here is that duplicate/unknown roles are your friend and give the narrator more wiggle room when it comes to balance.

[JeenLeen]

...setting up a convenient "Xihirli can now claim to have two private seer claims for town to test", which sure enough got the actual seer claiming privately to Xihirli. It 100% looked like a wolf just got the seer to out themselves to the wolves (turning my plan a bit on its head), so I started pushing harder. Except it turned out no, Xihirli is town, this helps the network, and I have no idea why gac3 decided that telling Xihirli straight up that one of the two of us was definitely a wolf was a good idea.

Actually, I revealed to Xihirli because I had scried her and gotten a Town read. To my embarrassment, I QuickTopic'd her before reading up on the forum posts, so I was unaware of all the Seer-claims she had gotten.

I figured Xihirli was a good scry since she's hard to discern otherwise.

I had a similar guffaw the next night, in which I had decided to target YoshiCline since they seemed wolfish even though they weren't part of a dual-claim. Then I realized they actually were part of a dual-claim, so it worked well since that claim was for Proxy.
I was wary of scrying a claim since the Long-Term Plant was still active. But the Proxy has a special trait of being immune to scrys, so getting "no result" confirmed them.

[AvatarVecna]

That's very easy to get around, even without allowing the town to PM. Have everyone make a 25 character message which includes their claim, then encode their claim via a Vigenère cipher based one time pad (ie. with a 25 character randomly generated key) before posting. After all the encoded claims are in, people post their decoded claims and the keys for authentication purposes. Games with large numbers of wolves by volume are very unfun, but they're also one of the few ways to balance a scenario with no duplicate/unknown roles for a wolf to fake-claim as. (The other option, giving the wolves very very strong power roles, is perhaps more !!fun!! in the dwarf fortress sense of the term, but even less likely to be balanced.) The real moral of the story here is that duplicate/unknown roles are your friend and give the narrator more wiggle room when it comes to balance.

And then all the wolves (and some neutrals, and maybe some townies who dont want their role public) make a message that can be decoded into different roles depending on what keyword is given - allowing them to pick their claim after seeing what others have claimed while pretending to play along.

I prefer using neutrals as wiggle room, even if they're know
quantities. The wolf-villager ratio can favor the wolves in a way that isnt ruined by inactive or ineffective town, there's plays that can be made by either side fake-claiming a neutral role, but village doesn't have a number advantage that becomes overwhelming by end-of-game.

[Elenna]

Yeah, I also said right at the start of this game that games where all the roles were unique and known were vulnerable to mass claiming (especially with a role like CEOs Child, although as it happens I don't think oblivion actually did anything).

@AV, I'm not sure why gac chose Xihirli but IIRC they actually came up with that "pretend to be the seer" plan before we put together what exactly you were doing

[AvatarVecna]

Spent about 5 minutes prepping the info to fill this table; used random.org to generate the final message instead of a random key, and then used the link you provided to "generate random keys" that just happen to turn the coded text into whatever I want it to say. The link given actually makes it really easy, because if you use your intended plaintext as the key, it spits out a seemingly-random string of letters; put that string of letters as the new keyword, and now the coded message returns the original plaintext you put in.

Spoiler

Show

Coded Message	Key	Plain Text Message
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQRQZMTBRIYHOCQW	AVATARVECNAACTUALITWORKER
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQRQZMTBHDCVCAMA	AVATARVECNAACTUALSYSADMIN
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQJAZZPMIZNNKECU	AVATARVECNAISTHEARCHIVIST
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQJAZZPKVNCTYEJK	AVATARVECNAISTHECEOSCHILD
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQAOSVTKXNAIMMHU	AVATARVECNAREALACCOUNTANT
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNPEFDWYOINFPVVMMOGXFZSJ	AVACTUALFRIENDLYANNOYANCE
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQJAZZPVVBJGOYXP	AVATARVECNAISTHEREALPROXY
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNPEFDWZIBNBKUPZGBJTRJQW	AVACTUALEXPERIMENTALCODER
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNFZESZFPSXJFMCGKBMJVSZQW	AVISTHECONTINGENCYPLANNER
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQAOSVCIGBJNFTGW	AVATARVECNAREALRETALIATOR
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQJAZZPKLYQCYEQI	AVATARVECNAISTHECODETHIEF
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIDFKLQGHETNTVKIGUMHU	AVATARACTUALLONGTERMPLANT
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIDFKLQGRSEJSKYQKBTQW	AVATARACTUALBACKUPDELETER
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WNNYXIIDBSQJAXYCSHZDRFTGW	AVATARVECNAISVIRUSCREATOR
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	BELEXRLHBMWRHHIAFVVUJEBQW	VECNAISACTUALLYTHEGAMBLER
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	QRJHURAUKMJJFINMEHINERSOG	GREKDIDNTTHINKTHISTHROUGH
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	FIAOJNTDFNQAOFNMMIYBHAMKJ	RANDOMKEYSARENTHARDTOFAKE
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	AAUKESZCVSQGGOOBMTXDVSJGB	WITHTHEFINALMESSAGERANDOM
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	YUTPXMBQDAXFEANTZBPQDNMOJ	YOUCANCRAFTMOSTANYMESSAGE
WINRXZDHDFQRSSGTMZBUVFMUN	WXCVQRSDSRCHKFABYROHHDIHU	ALLWHILELOOKINGSOINNOCENT