Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [Spoilers Ahoy!]

[Peelee]

At the end we see Luke and Leia's ghosts when Rey buried thier lightsabers.

Small point, she didn't bury Luke's lightsaber. She buried Anakin's. Luke's... well, dunno what happened to that one.

[Zevox]

• [Rian Johnson] had some big ideas to muck about with. He did so in a poor fashion, but he did have them, which is more than we can say for ol' J.J.

Okay, I've seen this mentioned once in a while before, though usually by defenders of TLJ. I have to ask though: what ideas? Honestly, no sarcasm, I don't know what you're referring to. Because when I saw that film, I certainly didn't see anything I would call "big" or "interesting" ideas. About all I can think of that you could maybe be referring to is the attempt at an anti-heroic-sacrifice message with Rose and Finn's scene near the end, except that the movie itself contradicts that by including Holdo and Luke sacrificing themselves, and portraying those as perfectly fine. Beyond that, I look at TLJ and just see a depressing film about a hero who gave up on everything for little reason and then dies for no reason, a bunch of under-developed protagonists who range from unremarkable to unlikable and accomplish next to nothing, and an incompetent batch of villains who only accomplish anything because the situation in the movie is so overwhelmingly in their favor from minute 1.

• [JJ Abrams] continually paints his villains as utter incompetents.

Now now, that wasn't just Abrams, that was Johnson too. He's the one who doubled down on Kylo remaining as bad as he was in TFA, who stripped Hux of any shred of dignity he could have had, and summarily killed off the only villain who displayed any amount of competence or ability to accomplish anything, Snoke.

[Devonix]

Okay, I've seen this mentioned once in a while before, though usually by defenders of TLJ. I have to ask though: what ideas? Honestly, no sarcasm, I don't know what you're referring to. Because when I saw that film, I certainly didn't see anything I would call "big" or "interesting" ideas. About all I can think of that you could maybe be referring to is the attempt at an anti-heroic-sacrifice message with Rose and Finn's scene near the end, except that the movie itself contradicts that by including Holdo and Luke sacrificing themselves, and portraying those as perfectly fine. Beyond that, I look at TLJ and just see a depressing film about a hero who gave up on everything for little reason and then dies for no reason, a bunch of under-developed protagonists who range from unremarkable to unlikable and accomplish next to nothing, and an incompetent batch of villains who only accomplish anything because the situation in the movie is so overwhelmingly in their favor from minute 1.


Now now, that wasn't just Abrams, that was Johnson too. He's the one who doubled down on Kylo remaining as bad as he was in TFA, who stripped Hux of any shred of dignity he could have had, and summarily killed off the only villain who displayed any amount of competence or ability to accomplish anything, Snoke.

I don't get where you are coming up with the anti heroic sacrifice message. Especially since the film has two heroic sacrifices.

The film is anti throwing your life away, and puts a direct line separating them. Finn suiciding himself against the ram would be a sensless death accomplishing nothing, which is why someone stops him. Stops him in the way someone should have stopped poe at the begining of the film. That's why it's Poe that orders Finn to back off, it's him growing up.

[Zevox]

I don't get where you are coming up with the anti heroic sacrifice message. Especially since the film has two heroic sacrifices.

The film is anti throwing your life away, and puts a direct line separating them. Finn suiciding himself against the ram would be a sensless death accomplishing nothing, which is why someone stops him. Stops him in the way someone should have stopped poe at the begining of the film. That's why it's Poe that orders Finn to back off, it's him growing up.

...because that's how that whole situation was set up? The weapon he was going after was what the First Order needed to bust into their base. If he could disable it, even at the cost of his life, that would likely buy the rest of them the time to escape. That's why they were after it in the first place.

[Peelee]

The film is anti throwing your life away, and puts a direct line separating them. Finn suiciding himself against the ram would be a sensless death accomplishing nothing, which is why someone stops him.

She rammed him in the middle of a featureless, open field, surrounded by enemy walkers who want to eradicate every member of the Resistance, far from the base. The logical conclusion is they will be shot while trying to escape. That is Rose throwing both of their lives away and only being saved by plot; even if you want to argue the walkers were too preoccupied with Luke (they were not for some time), Rose had no way of knowing that, and stranded them both in a no-man's land. That undercuts her message, I would say.

[Devonix]

She rammed him in the middle of a featureless, open field, surrounded by enemy walkers who want to eradicate every member of the Resistance, far from the base. The logical conclusion is they will be shot while trying to escape. That is Rose throwing both of their lives away and only being saved by plot; even if you want to argue the walkers were too preoccupied with Luke (they were not for some time), Rose had no way of knowing that, and stranded them both in a no-man's land. That undercuts her message, I would say.

It being silly that they get away is silly movie logic, but it has no baring on what the message is. Stupid things happening around a message doesn't change what the message is. That wasn't me arguing about the quality of the scene, it was clarifying the meaning of a scene.

[Devonix]

...because that's how that whole situation was set up? The weapon he was going after was what the First Order needed to bust into their base. If he could disable it, even at the cost of his life, that would likely buy the rest of them the time to escape. That's why they were after it in the first place.

It wasn't going to work. If Finn rammed the laser nothing was going to happen. I will acknowledge that Rian Johnson didn't do a good job of explaining that. But that's what he was trying to tell the audience. That What Finn was doing wasn't going to do anything but get himself killed and save no one.

[Zevox]

It wasn't going to work. If Finn rammed the laser nothing was going to happen. I will acknowledge that Rian Johnson didn't do a good job of explaining that. But that's what he was trying to tell the audience. That What Finn was doing wasn't going to do anything but get himself killed and save no one.

I see no reason to believe that. If you ram a vehicle like that at high speed into a weapon like that laser, yeah, I'd fully expect the resulting damage to have a good chance of disabling the thing - or least causing a malfunction of some kind that may amount to same thing. I certainly don't recall anything in the film itself that seemed to indicate the contrary.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Joran
And the resulting trilogy speaks for itself: it's a disjointed mess where it sounds like two people wrestling over the story stick….

Exactly, and the tug-of-war between them ended up gyrating out of control.

What I found especially irritating was JJ’s point-by-point reversal of small but telling details. Kylo smashes his helmet? No, it’s welded back together again. Rey lets down her hair? No, she puts it back up in the exact same style as before. Rey gets a unique scar from a harrowing fight? No, it’s covered up so we don’t even think about it.

These are all signposts of character development, but JJ systematically picks them apart and resets them without regard for their value to the story. It smacks of pride and a Starkiller-sized ego, and when you’re distracted by the director’s ego in the middle of a movie, something in that movie has badly failed.

[Devonix]

I see no reason to believe that. If you ram a vehicle like that at high speed into a weapon like that laser, yeah, I'd fully expect the resulting damage to have a good chance of disabling the thing - or least causing a malfunction of some kind that may amount to same thing. I certainly don't recall anything in the film itself that seemed to indicate the contrary.

They were described as rickety in the extreme barely able to function enough to operate. At one point in the battle Poe's foot completely goes through the floorboards and out the other side.

Everything about the scene emphasizes that these things are rickety pieces of crap not fit for combat.

What Finn was doing was the equivalent of charging a tank with a 4wheeler and hoping something would happen

And once again this is just the message the film was trying to send. It obviously failed to send the message to you, but that's what the message was.

Self Sacrifice to protect a cause is good. But there is a difference between self sacrifice, and blindly flailing at your enemy in the hopes of hurting them. .

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Zevox
If you ram a vehicle like that at high speed into a weapon like that….

The first mention of the skimmers describes them as “half-gutted,” and bits of them are flying off from the moment they hit the salt flats. Poe puts his foot through a panel at the outset, and Finn’s guns are melted just by the laser ram’s targeting beam.

The skimmers are rickety beyond words; they’re essentially tinfoil wrapped around toothpicks with an engine attached. Even if Finn had made it to the ram, he would have impacted uselessly on the outside or been vaporized when it fired.


Edit: Mandalorian'd!

Originally Posted by Devonix
What Finn was doing was the equivalent of charging a tank with a 4wheeler tricycle and hoping something would happen....

More accurate, I think. Those skimmers were incredibly flimsy. You could see the wings flexing as they bounced around.

.

[Hopeless]

Regardless of your view of TFA JJ left Rian a shed load of possibilities which he turned down and mutilated leaving precious little for the last part of the trilogy to work with.

Take the script Rian used, with a little tinkering it would have been far better and more importantly with better explanations he might have avoided the mess he subsequently caused.

For example have Holdo be New Republic and NOT Resistance there you have a legitimate reason why she doesn't trust Poe and provide some much needed world building the ST desperately needed.

Its Holdo who assigns Finn on that mission, but make him part a special forces squad heading to Canto Blight to meet a contact to help them infiltrate the Supremacy.

Reveal that the New Republic coaxed by Snoke's pawns included a version of that Imperial Tracker we saw used in Star Wars Rebels (the missile the Grand Inquisitor tagged the Phantom with) on any ship it has access to under the premise of an anti-theft guidance.

Hosnian Prime is blown up but Snoke's Loyalist Senators wasn't present thus in the aftermath they help the First Order take over but not as completely as Rian insinuates which explains what that hyperspace tracker is all about much better!

Reveal that map to Luke was a red herring to reveal how badly Snoke had infiltrate the New Republic and then reveal the main reason the Resistance isn't trusted is because Han returned to smuggling to help supply and fund Leia's Resistance including untagged ships.
And that is why Holdo needs Leia's help as the surviving New Republic Fleet let alone the tagged other ships can't organise a decent counter attack until that tracking system is disabled.

When Leia is spaced is exactly when Rey hands Luke that lightsabre and we witness his regaining access to the force with an image of him helping Leia back inside that ship note it should be emphasised both were involved in Leia's rescue not just Luke remember they're twins after all!

Sorry for the longwinded stuff its just whoever was proof reading this stuff let alone who agreed to this mess is probably just as responsible as Rian but with Knives Out released maybe nobody explained the concept of a trilogy to him?

I'm not saying he didn't have some good ideas but by god TLJ is awful I just wish the cast had a better script to work with as their performance is why I think people like episode 8 despite its problems.

The more I hear about Rise of Skywalker the more I'm more likely to pick this up on blu ray than watch it at the cinema even if there isn't an extended edition it sounds much more interesting!

[Devonix]

Regardless of your view of TFA JJ left Rian a shed load of possibilities which he turned down and mutilated leaving precious little for the last part of the trilogy to work with.

Take the script Rian used, with a little tinkering it would have been far better and more importantly with better explanations he might have avoided the mess he subsequently caused.

For example have Holdo be New Republic and NOT Resistance there you have a legitimate reason why she doesn't trust Poe and provide some much needed world building the ST desperately needed.

Its Holdo who assigns Finn on that mission, but make him part a special forces squad heading to Canto Blight to meet a contact to help them infiltrate the Supremacy.

Reveal that the New Republic coaxed by Snoke's pawns included a version of that Imperial Tracker we saw used in Star Wars Rebels (the missile the Grand Inquisitor tagged the Phantom with) on any ship it has access to under the premise of an anti-theft guidance.

Hosnian Prime is blown up but Snoke's Loyalist Senators wasn't present thus in the aftermath they help the First Order take over but not as completely as Rian insinuates which explains what that hyperspace tracker is all about much better!

Reveal that map to Luke was a red herring to reveal how badly Snoke had infiltrate the New Republic and then reveal the main reason the Resistance isn't trusted is because Han returned to smuggling to help supply and fund Leia's Resistance including untagged ships.
And that is why Holdo needs Leia's help as the surviving New Republic Fleet let alone the tagged other ships can't organise a decent counter attack until that tracking system is disabled.

When Leia is spaced is exactly when Rey hands Luke that lightsabre and we witness his regaining access to the force with an image of him helping Leia back inside that ship note it should be emphasised both were involved in Leia's rescue not just Luke remember they're twins after all!

Sorry for the longwinded stuff its just whoever was proof reading this stuff let alone who agreed to this mess is probably just as responsible as Rian but with Knives Out released maybe nobody explained the concept of a trilogy to him?

I'm not saying he didn't have some good ideas but by god TLJ is awful I just wish the cast had a better script to work with as their performance is why I think people like episode 8 despite its problems.

The more I hear about Rise of Skywalker the more I'm more likely to pick this up on blu ray than watch it at the cinema even if there isn't an extended edition it sounds much more interesting!

One problem is that the Last Jedi was trapped with having to be a direct followup. As in taking place directly after the end of the previous film. This is an issue that no Starwars film in History has ever needed to deal with.

[Hopeless]

One problem is that the Last Jedi was trapped with having to be a direct followup. As in taking place directly after the end of the previous film. This is an issue that no Starwars film in History has ever needed to deal with.

Its only a trap if you let it be one and there was no reason to treat it as such.
I still think the Last Jedi was actually two movies merged into one once Rian knew he wasn't doing episode 9 that would explain the mess much better if he was caught out after Colin Trevorrow left and he wasn't chosen to finish the trilogy.

They really should have planned this all out before letting JJ even start on TFA.

[JadedDM]

When it comes to assigning 'blame' between Abrams and Johnson, keep in mind, Abrams was an executive producer on The Last Jedi. So technically speaking, you could blame him for all three movies, if you want.

[TheSummoner]

I disagree. TFA was a perfectly serviceable first entry into the sequel franchise and worked well for introducing us to Rey, Finn, and Kylo. It wasn't perfect, but they could have run with the next two movies without changing anything and come out of it with a solid trilogy of movies.

Strongly disagree on this one. TFA could've been a serviceable, if horrendously unoriginal second entry into the series with minor tweaks. You can not just go from "Empire defeated, Emperor dead, rebels victorious, heroes celebrating" to "Empire back under a different name, rebels formed a new republic but its entirely impotent" with no explanation. In other words,

When The Force Awakens came out, I was immediately thrown because we ended RotJ at the Empire being defeated and the Rebellion being victorious and somehow we're back to Empire and Rebels and stormtroopers, Star Destroyers, TIE Fighters, X-Wings, and a doomsday device. It just felt like a rehash with the exact same story beats, instead of taking the story into interesting places like the EU novels did.

Everything Joran said here. If Ep VII had been about the rise of the (please name it something else, literally anything would be better than) First Order, then you could copy the major story beats from TFA into a passable second movie, but as it is, it's just bad and I think most people were too excited at the potential when it first came out to realize how bad it was.

TFA was a very self serving film that didn't leave its successor much to work with.

It ends halfway through a scene, forcing TLJ to finish it, meaning that the films can't advance in time.

Finn is unconscious and Rey is on Atch-To, preventing their relationship from developing between films.

Starkiller and the Republic Capital have both been destroyed, and there's going to be immediate fallout from that, but your two leads are out of commission and can't interact with it, meaning Poe has to carry the Republic plot.

Finn is unconscious, and with the time constraints, you either have to bounce him back comedically quickly or leave him out of the main story.

The most logical progression from TFA's ending is the remnants of the Republic fleet show up out for blood, and with Starkiller destroyed and Kylo down the FO have no feasible way of defending themselves with anything established in TFA if that happens. To maintain the FO as a viable threat, TLJ has to grow them a new fleet, and the remnants of the NR have to vanish, because if they don't then they show up and the FO is on the backfoot while your established leads are both on sabbatical.

Since this plot has to happen quickly, Rey's training has to be cut short, and fleet escape is the plot we're stuck with, because there's no time to build anything else. Reinforcements can't show up, because if they do the FO'S in trouble. There's no time for Kylo and Rey to level up for a true confrontation. Finn... is stuck doing nothing, because he's firmly established in TFA as not a pilot and the main Resistance plot is a fleet engagement. He's also no politician, his forte is shooting things and FO procedural knowledge, and the best way to use those skills is in some kind of infiltration mission, so he gets one, but Poe is the only lead with an excuse to interact with the political situation, so he has to stay behind.

Because of the time constraints, nobody can develop new skills between movies.

They could've opened with Finn waking up after a time skip. Poe explains what has happened between the end of TFA and the beginning of TLJ. The infodump would actually work in-universe since Finn would be as oblivious as the audience. Rey's first scene could then be mid-training, but that would require Luke to not have turned into Jake Skywalker between trilogies. I'm sure there are other ways they could've worked in a timeskip between movies, that's just one idea.

Edit: I'm more of a "blame J.J" person instead of a "blame Rian" person. I was always more of a Star Trek fan than a Star Wars fan, but I was still pretty knowledgeable about Star Wars. I read a lot of the EU novels (Emperor clone + multiple doomsday devices is totally on-brand for Star Wars).

I think both of them are incompetent hacks.

No, he was merely a force soulmate who redeemed himself by sacrificed his own life for hers. It's harder to get more personal than that. Come on they even kissed

Yes, I'm sure every girl wants a man who kidnaps and tortures her. That's why JJ wrote it that way.

She rammed him in the middle of a featureless, open field, surrounded by enemy walkers who want to eradicate every member of the Resistance, far from the base. The logical conclusion is they will be shot while trying to escape. That is Rose throwing both of their lives away and only being saved by plot; even if you want to argue the walkers were too preoccupied with Luke (they were not for some time), Rose had no way of knowing that, and stranded them both in a no-man's land. That undercuts her message, I would say.

No, the logical conclusion is ramming into him kills both of them on the spot.

It wasn't going to work. If Finn rammed the laser nothing was going to happen. I will acknowledge that Rian Johnson didn't do a good job of explaining that. But that's what he was trying to tell the audience. That What Finn was doing wasn't going to do anything but get himself killed and save no one.

And if Finn didn't ram the laser, the not-Empire blasts the door off their hiding place, storms in, and kills all of his friends. Finn knew this and if they didn't get Sue-ex-machina'd to safety, exactly that would've happened.

Poe also knew what would happen if the gun wasn't taken out, but he learned that being a hero is dumb from Admiral "Hold on a moment, I'm going to ram the enemy" and decided not to ram the enemy.

[Mechalich]

Strongly disagree on this one. TFA could've been a serviceable, if horrendously unoriginal second entry into the series with minor tweaks. You can not just go from "Empire defeated, Emperor dead, rebels victorious, heroes celebrating" to "Empire back under a different name, rebels formed a new republic but its entirely impotent" with no explanation. In other words,

Everything Joran said here. If Ep VII had been about the rise of the (please name it something else, literally anything would be better than) First Order, then you could copy the major story beats from TFA into a passable second movie, but as it is, it's just bad and I think most people were too excited at the potential when it first came out to realize how bad it was.

TFA is short about 10 minutes of exposition-heavy scenes. A major First Order conference scene, a scene with the New Republic government, and a few others would have gone a long way towards salvaging the film. It would still be absurdly derivative and the overall story would be weak, cliched, and have continuity issues with regard to the OT, but it would mostly work.

Unfortunately, not only did JJ Abrams fail to include the necessary exposition, subsequent material, including TRoS has made it quite clear that he simply doesn't have any answers. There's no unseen backstory that audience doesn't get to glimpse directly, there's no hidden mastery of the lore, there's nothing. It's all smoke and mirrors because he simply doesn't care about the universe and its lore at all.

I think both of them are incompetent hacks.

Rian Johnson is very much not a hack. He might be incompetent - at least in terms of directing a big-budget action film, which is a specialized skill that many very talented smaller movie directors never master - but he clearly has a distinct artistic vision. However, with regard to Star Wars he clearly simply did not care about the universe as a whole and subordinated it to his particular personal vision of a space fantasy in the movie he was given complete creative control to make. To some degree this is his fault, since he clearly lacked the self-awareness to refuse a project he had no business undertaking, but it's much more the fault of Disney Lucasfilm in making that choice and giving him complete creative control.

It's worth noting that the EU contains a number of works that are in many ways similar to TLJ - aside from their merits they very clearly exist in service of a vision that has no commonality with the overall franchise. The example from the novels is Rogue Planet, by Greg Bear. Greg Bear is an award-winning science fiction author and highly skilled, an Rogue Planet is a novel with a ton of interesting ideas exploring the concept of a 'living planet,' but it's a terrible Star Wars adventure.

That's the thing about franchise fiction. In order to properly produce it you have to actually care about the franchise and understand how it works. In fact, people who despise a franchise are actually better suited to produce material for it than those who are simply indifferent to it entirely. None of the people hired to produce the ST cared about Star Wars. By contrast, the team behind the Mandalorian clearly does.

[Fyraltari]

As far as I am aware the EU work that most closely resembles TLJ is Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, being a somewhat aggressive deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, featuring Force-bounds, moral ambiguity, jaded Jedi and people cutting themselves from the Force.
I suspect that what makes TSL more appreciated that TLJ is that its main characters* were not the heroes of previous works.

*With the exception of some secondary characters like HK-47 who were never main characters anyway.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Everything Joran said here. If Ep VII had been about the rise of the (please name it something else, literally anything would be better than) First Order, then you could copy the major story beats from TFA into a passable second movie, but as it is, it's just bad and I think most people were too excited at the potential when it first came out to realize how bad it was.

Forget the "rise of the First Order" entirely, I've been saying since day one that if they'd simply stuck with the Imperial Remnant à la the EU instead of coming up with a new No-we're-totally-not-the-Empire-we-swear faction out of nowhere, so many problems with TFA and to a lesser extent TLJ would have been fixed.

1) Where they heck did they get a huge fleet and tons of stormtroopers?
First Order: They pulled it right out of their Unknown Regions.
Imperial Remnant: "Get" a fleet and stormtroopers? What, you thought all their existing ships and troops evaporated after Endor?

2) Why do they control so much of the galaxy?
First Order: Because...reasons?
Imperial Remnant: Because the Empire didn't dissolve overnight, they've been doing a fighting retreat for the past three decades and are still stubbornly holding on.

3) Where did they get the resources for Starkiller Base?
First Order: See question 1.
Imperial Remnant: They had to drain the old Imperial coffers dry, so hopefully it doesn't get destroyed or they'll be set up to start losing in the sequel on their last legs.

4) Where did they get the plans for Starkiller Base?
First Order: Apparently superweapon designers grow on trees, unless Snoke moonlights as a hyperspace physicist.
Imperial Remnant: In the old archives from the Maw Installation, filed under "S" between "Sovereign-class Super Star Destroyer" and "Sun Crusher."

5) Who the heck is Snoke?
First Order: Some random Dark Sider who showed up out of the Unknown Regions, set himself up as Darth Bath Robe, and started giving orders...and no one objected, for some reason?
Imperial Remnant: One of Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts, who assumed power after the sudden untimely deaths of Sate Pestage, Mas Amedda, and the rest of the Ruling Council, according to the legal rules of succession.

And on and on and on.

I suspect that what makes TSL more appreciated that TLJ is that its main characters* were not the heroes of previous works.

Well, that, and KotOR 2 had new planets, new plots, new and different superweapons, etc. instead of being a blatant retread of ESB and parts of RotJ, and it had plenty of room to breathe to explore its premise and ideas rather than spending hours on pointless side plots.

characters like HK-47 who were never main characters anyway.

Indignance: Who are you calling a secondary character, meatbag?

[Rodin]

Okay, I've seen this mentioned once in a while before, though usually by defenders of TLJ. I have to ask though: what ideas? Honestly, no sarcasm, I don't know what you're referring to. Because when I saw that film, I certainly didn't see anything I would call "big" or "interesting" ideas. About all I can think of that you could maybe be referring to is the attempt at an anti-heroic-sacrifice message with Rose and Finn's scene near the end, except that the movie itself contradicts that by including Holdo and Luke sacrificing themselves, and portraying those as perfectly fine. Beyond that, I look at TLJ and just see a depressing film about a hero who gave up on everything for little reason and then dies for no reason, a bunch of under-developed protagonists who range from unremarkable to unlikable and accomplish next to nothing, and an incompetent batch of villains who only accomplish anything because the situation in the movie is so overwhelmingly in their favor from minute 1.

Now now, that wasn't just Abrams, that was Johnson too. He's the one who doubled down on Kylo remaining as bad as he was in TFA, who stripped Hux of any shred of dignity he could have had, and summarily killed off the only villain who displayed any amount of competence or ability to accomplish anything, Snoke.

Johnson moved away from the "OT, but not as good" thing that Abrams was setting up for. There was a real fear going into that film that we were going to get Empire again. Rey trains under Luke as Luke trained under Yoda, leaves early and gets her butt handed to her by Kylo as he develops into Vader. Rey has a traumatic reveal of who her parents are, and Snoke comes out as the Emperor. We have another straight-up good vs evil clash with Rey redeeming Kylo and then both of them taking down Snoke, and we wind up with a crappy OT remake instead of a sequel series.

Instead, things aren't so clear cut. Luke isn't the saviour that everyone was counting on, but a jaded old man who was partially responsible for the existence of Kylo Ren. The new Big Bad Snoke gets killed off. Rey is shown to not be a goody-two-shoes like Luke, but is actually someone who has a hidden dark side. Rey's reveal of who her parents are is that they were just people. Kylo's development takes him away from Vader and into a more unpredictable wild card status. My initial prediction for Rise was of a protagonist swap. Rey would be corrupted by her dark side, and Kylo's deeply buried light side would emerge.

Unfortunately, that's only a third of the movie, and the rest is either passable filler (Canto Bight) or utter garbage (the chase sequence). And then Rise failed to capitalize on a lot of the changes in direction in favor of returning to a more traditional story.

TLJ wound up being the second worst Star Wars film ever made (my personal worst is AotC), but that doesn't mean there weren't good ideas in it. They just needed to be turned into a good movie.

Also, I disagree that Snoke showed any degree of competence. He does nothing in TFA and then gets killed off like a chump in TLJ. He never felt even remotely threatening and getting rid of him was a great move.

[Mechalich]

As far as I am aware the EU work that most closely resembles TLJ is Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, being a somewhat aggressive deconstruction of the Star Wars universe, featuring Force-bounds, moral ambiguity, jaded Jedi and people cutting themselves from the Force.
I suspect that what makes TSL more appreciated that TLJ is that its main characters* were not the heroes of previous works.

Kotor II also ultimately rejects all those subversive ideas. The light side triumphs, the Republic is saved, and Visas Marr goes on to restore the Jedi Order. In fact, the standard all light side play through is all about starting from a place of doubt and despair and then progressively rejecting its offers time after time while rebuilding links across the galaxy and encouraging people to stand together as Kreia gets more and more fed up with you. You, as the player, can choose to embrace the deconstruction elements of Kotor II if you want to, but you can also reject them almost completely and play the Exile as a shining beacon in the darkness.

TLJ has no such option.

Johnson moved away from the "OT, but not as good" thing that Abrams was setting up for. There was a real fear going into that film that we were going to get Empire again. Rey trains under Luke as Luke trained under Yoda, leaves early and gets her butt handed to her by Kylo as he develops into Vader. Rey has a traumatic reveal of who her parents are, and Snoke comes out as the Emperor. We have another straight-up good vs evil clash with Rey redeeming Kylo and then both of them taking down Snoke, and we wind up with a crappy OT remake instead of a sequel series.

Instead, things aren't so clear cut. Luke isn't the saviour that everyone was counting on, but a jaded old man who was partially responsible for the existence of Kylo Ren. The new Big Bad Snoke gets killed off. Rey is shown to not be a goody-two-shoes like Luke, but is actually someone who has a hidden dark side. Rey's reveal of who her parents are is that they were just people. Kylo's development takes him away from Vader and into a more unpredictable wild card status. My initial prediction for Rise was of a protagonist swap. Rey would be corrupted by her dark side, and Kylo's deeply buried light side would emerge.

Unfortunately, TLJ also lacks the courage of its own convictions. Rey does not take Kylo's hand and Luke does come back (albeit too late) to save the Resistance in the end.

[Noldo]

Unfortunately, TLJ also lacks the courage of its own convictions. Rey does not take Kylo's hand and Luke does come back (albeit too late) to save the Resistance in the end.

The funny thing is that if one would claim that those were results of executive meddling and Johnson was forced to dilute his vision to accommodate the realities of Hollywood blockbusters, most would believe such a claim without a second thought. But the statements by Johnson and the executives refute the claim even though it would have been beneficial for Johnson to throw the suits under the bus.

If only they have used the Canto scenes to set up Poe for third part and had courage to go all the way with Luke, Rey and Ben (although that would have forced them to bring Luke back in substantial role in third).

[GloatingSwine]

Regardless of your view of TFA JJ left Rian a shed load of possibilities which he turned down and mutilated leaving precious little for the last part of the trilogy to work with.

The fact that most of the things in your post read more like a fix-fic of things that TFA itself should have established if they were going to be used demonstrates how little possibility space that movie actually left.

It left us with the Republic destroyed, no survivors, no fleet, and no significant military opposition to the First Order from anyone anywhere.

It left us with Luke Skywalker in exile quite obviously not ready or willing to do anything about the above (or he wouldn't have stayed there when he felt the destruction of Hosnian through the force).

It left us with our three leads separated, and the only one able to move the plot forward with the Resistance being Poe, who was barely a character, he's established as a hotshot pilot and not a lot else. (Seriously, I reckon quite a lot of the Poe/Finn shippers latched on to that because it's the only shred of actual personality Poe has).

It ends on a hanging action, which is why the next film was required to pick up immediately after it. If you end a scene on a hanging action you need to complete that action the next time you see those characters (regular failure to do so is one of the reasons The Last Airbender's live action travesty is such a bad movie).

The possibility space there is very small, the First Order is established to be ascendant, the Republic is established to be no more, the character that has to lead one half of the narrative needs to turn into a character now, and the movie must take place immediately.

That means that something that contains most of the elements of The Last Jedi has to happen.

Poe has to be presented as a character, that means he has to have an arc which takes him from one set of traits and decisions at the start of the movie to another better set of traits and decisions at the end (that's what stories are), and for a character whose only defining trait so far is "hotshot pilot" that has to be turning recklessness into maturity, because that's basically all you have to work with.

The First Order has to retaliate, and the Resistance has to be shown to be cut off from its support by the destruction of the Republic.

You have to answer why Luke is so committed to exile that a man who once rushed off to save one girl he thought was hot won't lift a finger after the destruction of whole star systems (because he would have to have already done that in TFA if he was going to).

[hamishspence]

TLJ, at least, told us that Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so didn't sense the Hosnian destruction.

[GloatingSwine]

TLJ, at least, told us that Luke had cut himself off from the Force, so didn't sense the Hosnian destruction.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about being actively necessary. He has to be so thoroughly committed to exile that even that event cannot move him. "Cut off from the force" is a good signifier of that commitment.

And from that commitment must flow, well, basically everything else his character does in TLJ. He can't be any less dedicated to being a mad hermit than that movie shows him to be whilst being consistent with a person who sat out the destruction of Hosnian and did not even prepare to act.

[Dr.Samurai]

Catching up but wanted to comment on this bit about whatever idea might be in TLJ:

I don't get where you are coming up with the anti heroic sacrifice message. Especially since the film has two heroic sacrifices.

The film is anti throwing your life away, and puts a direct line separating them.

I disagree with both of you. I don't think it's a message against heroic sacrifice or against throwing your life away. I think it's a message against fighting bad guys, full stop.

Rose doesn't say "Finn, this would be pointless, know what battles to fight, and live to fight another day, etc.". She simply says not to fight stuff but to save stuff.

TLJ has an anti-hero message. In the context of these types of movies heroes run around fighting bad guys. TLJ is totally against this.

Holdo's sacrifice is not heroic; it is tragic. The sacrifice would not have been necessary if not for the "heroic" actions of Poe, who worked against his commanding officer to take the fight to the First Order. But Holdo had a plan in place already not to fight the First Order but to save the Resistance. But since Poe and Finn and Rose were working against her with a heroic sidequest and a heroic mutiny, the First Order learned of their efforts and were in a position to destroy them. So Holdo had to sacrifice herself for the plan to work. Holdo's sacrifice is a rebuke of Poe's heroism.

Similarly, Luke's sacrifice at the end of the movie is simply his comeuppance for "fighting" his vision of Ben Solo instead of having the instinct to "save" his nephew from falling to the dark side. By drawing his lightsaber, Luke put into motion a chain of events that led to TFA and TLJ, where Snoke has a powerful dark side apprentice in Kylo Ren and Luke has sequestered himself and is out of the conflict. Like Holdo and Poe, Luke's sacrifice is not so heroic because it is making amends for his choices leading up to this point. In essence, he owes this much to the galaxy. But notice that even then he doesn't actually "fight" Kylo Ren. But he does "save" the Resistance.

And right before then we get the scene with Finn and Rose. Finn is learning that the Resistance and what it fights for is greater than he is, and prepares to make the ultimate sacrifice. But luckily Rose is there to tell him that this is the wrong way to win. It's not by fighting, but by saving.

And while Leia is slapping and shooting Poe, and Rose is stunning and ramming Finn, Rey and Kylo are fighting side by side going through their will they/won't they routine. Because Rey is not trying to fight Kylo Ren, she's trying to save him.

There is more conflict in this movie between the protagonists themselves than there is between the protagonists and the antagonists, because Rian is giving us a lesson on heroism. You thought the Jedi vs Sith was cool? No, Luke is here to tell us that it was all nonsense and nothing matters. You thought hot shot ace pilot Poe was cool? No, Leia and Holdo are here to tell us that he only needlessly gets people killed. You thought action adventure movies were cool? No, heroic and sensitive sidequests only harm your efforts and heroic sacrifice is not necessary, thank you very much.

This is why this movie is set apart from the rest of the franchise.

[GloatingSwine]

Rose doesn't say "Finn, this would be pointless, know what battles to fight, and live to fight another day, etc.". She simply says not to fight stuff but to save stuff.

Except that's a misrepresentation of what she actually says. She says that you should fight to protect what you love, not destroy what you hate.

Which is pretty much the core message of Star Wars. Hatred is the path to the dark side, and striking your enemy in hate will make you fall. That was literally the temptation explicitly spelled out for Luke in Return of the Jedi.

[Dr.Samurai]

Except that's a misrepresentation of what she actually says. She says that you should fight to protect what you love, not destroy what you hate.

Which is pretty much the core message of Star Wars. Hatred is the path to the dark side, and striking your enemy in hate will make you fall. That was literally the temptation explicitly spelled out for Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Well if we're going to quibble on the wording, she doesn't say what you said either. She says "That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love." And in the OT it was limited to Luke, as opposed to the entire Rebellion. A war is a war. Fighting needs to take place.

In the OT, Han and Lando and Leia are still actively fighting a war against the Empire.

In other words, Rose's reasoning is normally reserved for Jedi. Finn ramming the cannon will not lead him to the Dark Side. Poe taking off in his X-wing and shooting down TIE fighters will not lead him to the Dark Side.

But TLJ rebukes these actions. The OT did not. The mission in ANH, RotJ, and TFA is to destroy a giant super weapon. The mission in TLJ is not to destroy anything. We end up destroying a fleet but *only because* Poe the hero interfered. Otherwise, the mission in TLJ is simply to evacuate. Even at the end of the movie, the point is to inspire hope across the galaxy not by defeating the FO forces, but by quietly escaping out the back of a cave. This is the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order, or whatever. Imagine, the galaxy gets inspired by our heroes not fighting.

TLJ is against fighting. It's not simply against Jedi striking out in hate. It's against combat, war, heroism, etc. Rose is there to tell us war is just bad. Then she's there to tell us not to fight what we hate (as if hating the FO and fighting it are bad things), but to save what we love. And before then Leia and Holdo have much to say on action heroes.

So this movie has a much different message than the OT.

[Daimbert]

Except that's a misrepresentation of what she actually says. She says that you should fight to protect what you love, not destroy what you hate.

Which, sadly, doesn't work because the only time in all of these movies that Finn was able to overcome his fear and actually fight and put his life on the line was for Rey, the woman he at least thought he loved. He didn't need to learn that lesson. He needed to learn the lesson that there were other things worth fighting and dying for, and his attempted run at the cannon was the culmination of that, and there's no indication that hate is the biggest driving force behind his actions there. If Johnson wanted to subvert the heroic sacrifice, having him get offhandedly blasted in a way that leaves him alive and have Rose come out to save him would work better. Or, heck, have Rose take his place and fail but survive to drive it all home.

[Fyraltari]

Forget the "rise of the First Order" entirely, I've been saying since day one that if they'd simply stuck with the Imperial Remnant à la the EU instead of coming up with a new No-we're-totally-not-the-Empire-we-swear faction out of nowhere, so many problems with TFA and to a lesser extent TLJ would have been fixed.

1) Where they heck did they get a huge fleet and tons of stormtroopers?
First Order: They pulled it right out of their Unknown Regions.
Imperial Remnant: "Get" a fleet and stormtroopers? What, you thought all their existing ships and troops evaporated after Endor?

Thirty years after Endor, no stormtrooper from the time of the Empire is in fighting condition, in either continuity. The first order amassed its armies by force conscription of children that is explicit in the movie. And they spent 30 years building their fleet some of it is actually old Imperial ships. Even their commanding officers are children of old imperial officers (Hux) or old imperial officers (Canady, Pryde).

2) Why do they control so much of the galaxy?
First Order: Because...reasons?
Imperial Remnant: Because the Empire didn't dissolve overnight, they've been doing a fighting retreat for the past three decades and are still stubbornly holding on.

Because they signed a peace with the New Republic that let them control some territory, they conquered some in the Unknown Regions, and some Republican worlds seceded and joined them as shown in Bloodlines.

3) Where did they get the resources for Starkiller Base?
First Order: See question 1.
Imperial Remnant: They had to drain the old Imperial coffers dry, so hopefully it doesn't get destroyed or they'll be set up to start losing in the sequel on their last legs.

It’s a hollowed our planet for crying out loud it is the ressources needed and even if it needs more of some specific material than what was already present. 1) Rose’s backstory is that the FO mined her home planet inside-our and 2) they have casual fighter-than-light travel and it’s not like’ the galaxy is on a shortage of planet and asteroids to mine.

4) Where did they get the plans for Starkiller Base?
First Order: Apparently superweapon designers grow on trees, unless Snoke moonlights as a hyperspace physicist.
Imperial Remnant: In the old archives from the Maw Installation, filed under "S" between "Sovereign-class Super Star Destroyer" and "Sun Crusher."

According to TFA they had access to the old Imperial Archives (probably taken by Imperial loyalists from Corusant when the FO formed) so there.

5) Who the heck is Snoke?
First Order: Some random Dark Sider who showed up out of the Unknown Regions, set himself up as Darth Bath Robe, and started giving orders...and no one objected, for some reason?
Imperial Remnant: One of Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts, who assumed power after the sudden untimely deaths of Sate Pestage, Mas Amedda, and the rest of the Ruling Council, according to the legal rules of succession.

And the moffs and admirals would not question a random adept ordering around? Being a powerful Darksider is pretty much all that’s needed to lead the Empire in both continuity. Promise them to restore it to glory and Sith-fry anyone who objects.

Well, that, and KotOR 2 had new planets, new plots, new and different superweapons, etc. instead of being a blatant retread of ESB and parts of RotJ, and it had plenty of room to breathe to explore its premise and ideas rather than spending hours on pointless side plots.

The side plots are part of the deconstruction, most planets in Kotor II were already established (Korriban, Dantooine, Onderon) and yes a video game has more room than a movie, that’s not a surprise.

Indignance: Who are you calling a secondary character, meatbag?

The comic relief.

Kotor II also ultimately rejects all those subversive ideas. The light side triumphs, the Republic is saved, and Visas Marr goes on to restore the Jedi Order. In fact, the standard all light side play through is all about starting from a place of doubt and despair and then progressively rejecting its offers time after time while rebuilding links across the galaxy and encouraging people to stand together as Kreia gets more and more fed up with you. You, as the player, can choose to embrace the deconstruction elements of Kotor II if you want to, but you can also reject them almost completely and play the Exile as a shining beacon in the darkness.

TLJ has no such option.

Yes it does, Luke reconnects with the Force and saves the Resistance giving hope to the galaxy and inspiring a new generation, Rey embraces the Light Side, Poe becomes a true leader, Yoda explains that the past must not be discarded and the fight for good continues.

You may quibble with the execution but the message is there.