Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker [Spoilers Ahoy!]

[Pex]

Does this movie do anything to redeem Luke's character after TLJ took an axe to him? The 8th movie's treatment of him, moreso than anything else, is the main reason why I'm not likely to watch this movie.

Spoiler: spoiler

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Luke calls his holing up on Ach-To a mistake and urges Rey to not do the same. Also symbolically, she throws away the lightsaber and he catches it.

Spoiler

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He also uses the force to raise his starfighter out of the water - what he failed to do on Dagoba. That was his redemption.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's unclear whether or not Force Healing would have actually saved Padme. Star Wars medical technology is quite advanced, and while whatever injuries Anakin inflicted on Padma seem to have interacted with her pregnancy in a complex way, it's implied that the droids could have healed her, if she'd wanted to be healed. In a very real sense Padme Amidala committed suicide rather than face what Anakin had become (ugh, I hate writing that sentence, it's a foul thing, but I can't find a good counter to that explanation).

Anakin had visions of Padme dying in childbirth. If he knew he could heal lethal injuries, he would have had no need to go to Palpy for forbidden knowledge.

One could argue

Spoiler: TROS and Mandalorian

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Rey learned it from the books, but Ben couldn't have and the Yodaling certainly couldn't have. (I haven't seen Mando, I just know about this from memes)

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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He also uses the force to raise his starfighter out of the water - what he failed to do on Dagoba. That was his redemption.

Spoiler

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Imean, that also kind of got to me; it really seemed like Rey should have been the one to do that.

[Devonix]

Typical JJ Abrams ending Not what I wanted but what I expected for a bunch. Not a fan of the walkbacks and it felt way too fanfictiony at parts. I'd call it the weakest of the Sequel trilogy.

[zinycor]

Typical JJ Abrams ending Not what I wanted but what I expected for a bunch. Not a fan of the walkbacks and it felt way too fanfictiony at parts. I'd call it the weakest of the Sequel trilogy.

very well said

[Devonix]

very well said

It also felt far more videogamey. The thing I enjoyed about the combat from the previous two stories is that it felt more grounded. The Super mario jumps in this one made it hard not to laugh in the theater.

[zinycor]

Spoiler: Spoiler

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There were laughs at the cinema I was watching when rey killed sidius

[Mechalich]

So, the Sunday box office estimates are now in and it's not exactly looking good for this film. Box Office Mojo has the domestic opening at 175.5 million, which is not only off expectations for around 200 million - a number already 40 million below TLJ's opening - but is off the 190 million calculation based on the Thursday previews and Friday gross, which means the film is already sliding faster than industry expectations. It will doubtless be buoyed up by the holiday season for at least the coming week, especially due to relatively weak competition. Rise of Skywalker is primarily only up against Jumanji: the Next Level, a month-old Frozen II, and a bunch of prestige movies. Cats, the principle piece of counter-programming, crashed and burned hard, and the January release slate is super-weak, so Star Wars is going to get a huge schedule-related boost. It makes one wonder though, what would have happened if Frozen II had been the Christmas release and Star Wars opened over Thanksgiving.

Internationally, the film opened in almost all major international markets (minus South Korea, where it will probably do well), to 198 million. That's actually not that much and the key figure here is a Chinese opening of a relatively minuscule 12.1 million (for comparison, it made more money in Australia). That's not enough, not even close to enough. Even assuming a 3x multiple (which would be TLJ's), that means less than 40 million in China. In 2019 that's not enough for a major blockbuster, it just isn't.

Overall, it's a worldwide opening of 373 million. That means it has to manage a 2.68 multiple to hit 1 billion dollars worldwide. That's almost certainly doable, especially given the holiday marketplace, though it does mean beating Solo's multiple. If it matches TLJ's 2.82 multiple it would only hit 1.05 billion, which would be a lower gross than Joker and just barely more than Aladdin (think about that for a second). All of 2019's top films are over 1.1 billion - with Frozen II still in theaters - and I think there's a very good chance Rise of Skywalker won't pass any of them, and no chance it passes the Lion King at #2. That would be vastly below expectations, and it's even possible on the low end that this movie will struggle to make any real money. It cost 250-300 million to make (considering the rumors of extensive reshoots, I expect the higher end estimate is more likely), and the rough rule of thumb with big international blockbusters is you need at least 3x the budget (due to marketing costs and lower returns from foreign cinemas) to even hit break even. Even if it does make money, it will almost certainly make significantly less money than the Aladdin remake.

Whatever one's thoughts on Rise of Skywalker, it is already clear that it is not going to fix the problems Star Wars movies have begun to have at the box office. Clearly any new movies will need a new design philosophy.

[Devonix]

So, the Sunday box office estimates are now in and it's not exactly looking good for this film. Box Office Mojo has the domestic opening at 175.5 million, which is not only off expectations for around 200 million - a number already 40 million below TLJ's opening - but is off the 190 million calculation based on the Thursday previews and Friday gross, which means the film is already sliding faster than industry expectations. It will doubtless be buoyed up by the holiday season for at least the coming week, especially due to relatively weak competition. Rise of Skywalker is primarily only up against Jumanji: the Next Level, a month-old Frozen II, and a bunch of prestige movies. Cats, the principle piece of counter-programming, crashed and burned hard, and the January release slate is super-weak, so Star Wars is going to get a huge schedule-related boost. It makes one wonder though, what would have happened if Frozen II had been the Christmas release and Star Wars opened over Thanksgiving.

Internationally, the film opened in almost all major international markets (minus South Korea, where it will probably do well), to 198 million. That's actually not that much and the key figure here is a Chinese opening of a relatively minuscule 12.1 million (for comparison, it made more money in Australia). That's not enough, not even close to enough. Even assuming a 3x multiple (which would be TLJ's), that means less than 40 million in China. In 2019 that's not enough for a major blockbuster, it just isn't.

Overall, it's a worldwide opening of 373 million. That means it has to manage a 2.68 multiple to hit 1 billion dollars worldwide. That's almost certainly doable, especially given the holiday marketplace, though it does mean beating Solo's multiple. If it matches TLJ's 2.82 multiple it would only hit 1.05 billion, which would be a lower gross than Joker and just barely more than Aladdin (think about that for a second). All of 2019's top films are over 1.1 billion - with Frozen II still in theaters - and I think there's a very good chance Rise of Skywalker won't pass any of them, and no chance it passes the Lion King at #2. That would be vastly below expectations, and it's even possible on the low end that this movie will struggle to make any real money. It cost 250-300 million to make (considering the rumors of extensive reshoots, I expect the higher end estimate is more likely), and the rough rule of thumb with big international blockbusters is you need at least 3x the budget (due to marketing costs and lower returns from foreign cinemas) to even hit break even. Even if it does make money, it will almost certainly make significantly less money than the Aladdin remake.

Whatever one's thoughts on Rise of Skywalker, it is already clear that it is not going to fix the problems Star Wars movies have begun to have at the box office. Clearly any new movies will need a new design philosophy.

Said it before and I'll say it again. JJ was absolutely the worst person to have in charge of finishing this. He's never had a satisfactory conclusion to any work he's been involved in. His stuff starts off fine but always goes off the rails because the foundation his stories are built on are shaky.

[Zevox]

So, the Sunday box office estimates are now in and it's not exactly looking good for this film. Box Office Mojo has the domestic opening at 175.5 million, which is not only off expectations for around 200 million - a number already 40 million below TLJ's opening - but is off the 190 million calculation based on the Thursday previews and Friday gross, which means the film is already sliding faster than industry expectations. It will doubtless be buoyed up by the holiday season for at least the coming week, especially due to relatively weak competition. Rise of Skywalker is primarily only up against Jumanji: the Next Level, a month-old Frozen II, and a bunch of prestige movies. Cats, the principle piece of counter-programming, crashed and burned hard, and the January release slate is super-weak, so Star Wars is going to get a huge schedule-related boost. It makes one wonder though, what would have happened if Frozen II had been the Christmas release and Star Wars opened over Thanksgiving.

Internationally, the film opened in almost all major international markets (minus South Korea, where it will probably do well), to 198 million. That's actually not that much and the key figure here is a Chinese opening of a relatively minuscule 12.1 million (for comparison, it made more money in Australia). That's not enough, not even close to enough. Even assuming a 3x multiple (which would be TLJ's), that means less than 40 million in China. In 2019 that's not enough for a major blockbuster, it just isn't.

Overall, it's a worldwide opening of 373 million. That means it has to manage a 2.68 multiple to hit 1 billion dollars worldwide. That's almost certainly doable, especially given the holiday marketplace, though it does mean beating Solo's multiple. If it matches TLJ's 2.82 multiple it would only hit 1.05 billion, which would be a lower gross than Joker and just barely more than Aladdin (think about that for a second). All of 2019's top films are over 1.1 billion - with Frozen II still in theaters - and I think there's a very good chance Rise of Skywalker won't pass any of them, and no chance it passes the Lion King at #2. That would be vastly below expectations, and it's even possible on the low end that this movie will struggle to make any real money. It cost 250-300 million to make (considering the rumors of extensive reshoots, I expect the higher end estimate is more likely), and the rough rule of thumb with big international blockbusters is you need at least 3x the budget (due to marketing costs and lower returns from foreign cinemas) to even hit break even. Even if it does make money, it will almost certainly make significantly less money than the Aladdin remake.

Whatever one's thoughts on Rise of Skywalker, it is already clear that it is not going to fix the problems Star Wars movies have begun to have at the box office. Clearly any new movies will need a new design philosophy.

Interesting. I saw the numbers elsewhere, but don't have enough knowledge about the film industry to do that kind of analysis on what they actually mean for the film.

I'll say this: I don't know if this particular film deserves that or not, not having seen it. But insofar as its performance is inevitably influenced by audience satisfaction, or lack thereof, with its predecessor(s), I'm at least somewhat happy it's under-performing expectations. That might actually get Lucasfilm/Disney to take notice and think twice about what they're going to do for future films. I don't know how optimistic I can be at this time about whether that'll happen or what it might lead to, but it's something.

[Devonix]

Interesting. I saw the numbers elsewhere, but don't have enough knowledge about the film industry to do that kind of analysis on what they actually mean for the film.

I'll say this: I don't know if this particular film deserves that or not, not having seen it. But insofar as its performance is inevitably influenced by audience satisfaction, or lack thereof, with its predecessor(s), I'm at least somewhat happy it's under-performing expectations. That might actually get Lucasfilm/Disney to take notice and think twice about what they're going to do for future films. I don't know how optimistic I can be at this time about whether that'll happen or what it might lead to, but it's something.

That would be dissapointing. I still see Last Jedi as the best of the new Starwars stuff. And if this film's shortcomings affected their ability to do more creative things like that film I'd be upset.

[zinycor]

That would be dissapointing. I still see Last Jedi as the best of the new Starwars stuff. And if this film's shortcomings affected their ability to do more creative things like that film I'd be upset.

We greatly disagree there bud. TLJ almost made me quit star wars.

[Zevox]

That would be dissapointing. I still see Last Jedi as the best of the new Starwars stuff. And if this film's shortcomings affected their ability to do more creative things like that film I'd be upset.

*shrug* We have complete opposite opinions on that one, and that's about all there is to it. My disappointment would be if we ever do see more Star Wars films like The Last Jedi. It was an utter mess that succeeded only in killing things, including my enthusiasm for the sequels.

[Devonix]

Yeah, there's a divide that is going to be hard to mend. Making stuff like This is what would make me lose interest. Last Jedi is what revitalized my interest. This was just not as well made a movie, it felt like the worst of the EU stuff.

[zinycor]

Yeah, there's a divide that is going to be hard to mend. Making stuff like This is what would make me lose interest. Last Jedi is what revitalized my interest. This was just not as well made a movie, it felt like the worst of the EU stuff.

Weird, I hated that movie so much, it's baffling to me that it revitalized anyone's interest in the franchise.

[The Glyphstone]

Having three separate directors for three movies in the trilogy was the first mistake. Director 1 being Abrams was the second mistake, Abrams leaving Johnson a screenplay and expecting him to stick to it was the 3rd mistake. bringing Abrams back for part 3 was the 4th mistake, as he's now written a trilogy where Part 2 only exists in his head.

That said - for all the problems the movie as a whole had, there were many little details I picked up on and appreciated, even if it's just me reading too much into stuff.

Spoiler: Good Stuff

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Ben's redemption arc, against the odds, managed to stick the landing. His whole hangup has been that he's still more Light than Dark, but can't be redeemed because he believes himself to be unredeemable. Even after he murders Han, Leia still wants to save him rather than kill him. She sacrifices herself to distract him at a crucial moment, letting Rey get Kylo Ren's saber and impale him (in the exact same way he stabbed Han, natch). Rey kills Kylo Ren, then she heals Ben Solo. The vision of Han was the brick-to-the-head confirmation, as it's explicitly stated Han is just a memory rather than some sort of ghost - when Han forgives Ben, it means Ben has forgiven himself.

Slightly related, but at the climax when Ben is running to save Rey, jumps down and lands on the chain, his 'Ow' drew laughs in the theater. I laughed, but at the same time I saw it as a Captain Hammer moment of 'this is what pain feels like'. He's gone so long never really feeling pain except as a power reservoir to draw from - free of the Dark Side it actually hurts more than he expected.

The Spy was mostly a waste, but he did get one good line. 'I don't care if you win, I just want Kylo Ren to lose'. Having a mole who's not secretly a good guy, just a bad guy with a grudge against another bad guy, is oddly realistic for Star War's black and white morality.

Chewie's fake out death fooled no one, and I thought it to their credit that they didn't try to pretend he was actually dead for very long. Literally the next scene is the Imperials discussing the valuable prisoner they retrieved.

Ian McDairmid in general was a riot. I'm surprised I could understand any of his dialogue with all the scenery he was chewing the whole movie.

Poe's wordless exchange with Armored Girl during the victory celebration was amusing.

As far as a nitpick - doesn't the Resistance have any ranks other than General? Leia is a general, Poe is a general, Lando is a general, Finn is a general...

[Devonix]

Weird, I hated that movi so much, it's baffling to me that it revitalized anyone's interest in the franchise.

Yeah I was just as surprised people didn't like it. I knew that if they tried to " Course Correct " They'd basically be telling me, the stuff I'm enjoying is not what they're going to be doing. It's most likely why the reviews are so bad as well. A lot of people liked what was being done, and while I don't feel " offended " That they're tossing everything i liked in the trash, It does turn me off.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm convinced the people that are in charge of writing these movies don't know how to tell stories...

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Palpatine appears to be confined to Exogal by some life-support array. But his power appears tremendous. I still can't tell what happened with that super fleet but it looks like he just created it in the moment or raised it out of the earth. The First Order officers say he "conjured" a fleet. Palpatine tells us that he was the voices Kylo had been hearing. It strains the imagination to think that someone this powerful couldn't be influencing things in all sorts of other ways. Especially given Sidious' history of patient, long-term planning and scheming. Kylo is literally the only person he could influence? Seems like a true waste of Palpatine's character. Once Rey was discovered, why didn't he insert "voices" into her head? And how didn't he sense her? Everyone can sense everyone all the time in these movies. Even Finn can sense Rey. Palpatine can't sense his own grand-daughter?

Speaking of Finn... I guess he and Rose aren't a thing? They suggest that he loves Rey and is waiting to tell her. That thread never goes anywhere of course. Then there's a thing between him and the other ex-First Order soldier. But nothing happens there either. This movie picks up on a thread that should have started in the first movie; Finn as a leader of First Order defectors. It would have been interesting to see him inspiring and helping other soldiers leave the First Order throughout the trilogy, but for some reason they added this bit at the end of this movie, where it served no purpose (those soldiers could have easily been written as Resistance fighters). Also, I thought they were setting Finn up to be a force user. He can just sense stuff now? Where did that thread go? Never explained; just lazy storytelling to add drama/suspense when needed.

It was obvious that Leia wasn't actually there unfortunately and the dialogue was very clipped. Despite the first two movies basically telling us that training isn't necessary, and that Leia has a war to lead, she has taken on the role of Rey's master. How else could they quickly establish some type of relationship between these two characters? Apart from this, they have shared nothing beyond that outlandish hug in TFA when Han dies. Now they are master and padawan. Sure, whatever lol. The storytelling here with Leia is weird; Maz Kanata can somehow intuit Leia's intentions and their consequences and narrates to the audience that she will go sacrifice her life to reach out to Kylo Ren telepathically while he fights Rey, seconds before it happens. Thank you Maz, top grade storytelling right there. Leia, who never gave up on Ben, uses her last remaining energy to distract him so Rey can murder him. I'll have to assume, since the movie doesn't set this up beyond Maz, that Leia had an idea of future events and knew this was necessary or something. Or maybe a line earlier in the movie where she says "Not just Han, Ben is lost too" would indicate that she's given up on her son and is willing to have a hand in his death. But whatever, this movie just does whatever it has to to get to the next scene. Leia, it seems, didn't actually die then, despite everyone grieving, because she doesn't vanish until the end of the movie lol. And I guess she couldn't stomach to see a wookie with a medal because she waited until after her death to finally give Chewie that long deserved reward. What a bizarre choice to make.

Kylo Ren finds himself under another master with more intentions of double-crossing him to gain his fleet and rule the empire. Cool. Glad to see we've made some progress. He's still tele-flirting with Rey. Neato. I actually didn't mind his redemption. I wish the trilogy would have gone in a million other directions as far as development for all characters, but I liked Han speaking with him and telling him it was okay and he could still "come home". Had it been done a little differently in the first two movies I could buy this. I think Kylo has the most egregious yo-yo nonsense in this movie; Rey kills him, then heals him and he lives. Palpatine throws him into a pit and he vanishes, but then he climbs out and lives. He brings Rey back to life and they kiss, then he dies lol. I can't speak for everyone but this type of sh*t is annoying to sit through. I mean, the pitch for every other scene in this movie must have been "this happens, but then the opposite happens!".

Rey being a Palpatine I actually didn't mind. I think Palpatine/Sidious is a great character, mostly due to the prequel trilogy, so someone coming from his lineage is cool. I don't have a problem with inheriting force powers like it seems many other people do, so I didn't hear a "message" in TLJ that anyone can have the Force. As far as I'm concerned, that has always been the case, as evidenced by every other character that isn't a Skywalker in the six movies before this trilogy. What I did think was strange is Rey taking on the Skywalker name at the end. Like... she finds out that her parents sacrificed themselves to save her life, and she forsakes their name and takes on the Skywalker name. Luke feared her and drove her away before he died and Leia... didn't know her (let's be honest), but somehow it makes sense for her to take their name. Meanwhile, redemption is a strong theme in Star Wars and I thought she'd feel like she could redeem the Palpatine name and honor the sacrifice her parents made. Also, it's just strange that she is burying the two Skywalker lightsabers, like this is the end of the Skywalker saga, but then proudly proclaims to be a Skywalker, as if this is a new beginning. (And where in the world did that yellow lightsaber come from? Did I miss a scene?) Rey's character was never redeemed in this movie. I still don't know why sitting on the throne ruling an empire beside Kylo Ren ever appealed to Rey, but whenever he asked her to do it she looked dumbfounded/awestruck as if she really wanted too but thought it wasn't the right thing to do. Which is to say, she never really received much in the way of character through the three movies.

This movie just seems like a train wreck. If you needed the physical dagger in the first place, why go through this whole "we have to wipe C3PO's memory" side quest? You could have literally replaced that with a quest to infiltrate an Imperial ship and rescue Chewie and retrieve the dagger. Instead we go to this smuggler planet and go through this quest just to find out they still need the actual dagger. Speaking of Chewie, why tell us he's dead just to show us he isn't in the next scene? Rey's feelings on this didn't even go anywhere. And not only is the side quest pointless in the end, they restore C3PO's memory too! What was the point of all of that? Then they blow that planet up to make you think Zorey is dead, but somehow she survived! This is like The Last Jedi all over again, where everything you are watching on the screen **DOES NOT MATTER** at all. You're literally just sitting there to observe frames passing by in the order some people chose to put them in. That's it.

That's all I can remember for now. The lighting effect on Exogal was annoying. Also, everything with Palpatine had this weird horror vibe that departed from the tone of the rest of the film. I don't mind horror, but it was strange here. And of course, no lightsaber duel between the Didacts in the Force and Emperor Palpatine Restored. Because... why would we want to see that? I have an idea... why not have Palpatine go down the same way he did when Mace Windu nearly defeated him? Yeah, that's good. Palpatine still hasn't learned how to defend himself from someone bouncing back his own lightning against him. The people behind this are so creative.

[Mechalich]

Interesting. I saw the numbers elsewhere, but don't have enough knowledge about the film industry to do that kind of analysis on what they actually mean for the film.

I'll say this: I don't know if this particular film deserves that or not, not having seen it. But insofar as its performance is inevitably influenced by audience satisfaction, or lack thereof, with its predecessor(s), I'm at least somewhat happy it's under-performing expectations. That might actually get Lucasfilm/Disney to take notice and think twice about what they're going to do for future films. I don't know how optimistic I can be at this time about whether that'll happen or what it might lead to, but it's something.

Kathleen Kennedy is slated to remain president of Lucasfilm until 2021. Unless this movie features some sort of massive uptick in performance, it is extremely likely that her contract will not be renewed at that time. It is also probable that no new Star Wars films will enter production until then. Most likely portions of the team behind The Mandalorian will be the ones tapped to take the reigns of the franchise going forward. Mandalorian has already been renewed up to Season 3 so obviously Disney is pleased with those streaming numbers and it has a season finale coming on Friday that has a real chance of changing the conversation around Star Wars assuming it sticks the landing.

Mandalorian has some serious people behind it, including Jon Favreau, Dave Filoni, and Taika Waititi, and has also highlighted Deborah Chow (who helmed episodes 3 and 7 and is slated to run the upcoming Obi-Wan series) as a rising directorial star. I strongly suspect Disney will back up the Brinks truck and beg Favreau to take the helm of Star Wars going forward. The question is whether or not Favreau, who already has a giant pile of Disney money and can live off Iron Man and Avengers residuals forever, actually wants to do that.

However, beyond management, there's also the question of China. Star Wars has minimal cultural penetration there. Consider that TLJ made only 42.5 million there, while Captain Marvel, a movie that made 200 million less globally, made 154 million in China. It's basically impossible to be a global juggernaut franchise without any presence in the world's second largest market (2019's current #10 and #11 highest earners are Ne Zha and The Wandering Earth, two films that each earned over 95% of their gross in China). Going forward, perhaps the most important financial question for Star Wars is how to earn at least 100 million per film in China. Casting Chinese actors may help - Rogue One managed ~70 million in China and had Donnie Yen in a prominent role - but I think Disney needs to rethink their approach on a deeper level.

That would be dissapointing. I still see Last Jedi as the best of the new Starwars stuff. And if this film's shortcomings affected their ability to do more creative things like that film I'd be upset.

TLJ has extremely serious financial issues of its own. Yes the film itself made a pile of money, but it still came in below expectations compared to TFA (it's multiple of 2.82 does not qualify as strong), and the movie also laid a massive egg in the merchandising market. TLJ related toys do not sell, and toys have always been an essential part of the Star Wars monetary equation.

Also, TLJ is directly responsible for several of the major problems of RoS. Bringing Palpatine back, and everything connected to it, is ridiculous and stupid plotline and everyone knows it, but there was no good option when intended BBEG Snoke got cut in half in the middle of TLJ. Likewise the reduction of General Hux to a joke character forced the introduction of new character General Pryde. And while Richard E. Grant makes an excellent Imperial, and Pryde might actually be the best pure villain in the ST, the role is massively underwritten and lacks impact because of his late-stage introduction.

In any case, Disney has giant piles of money. They can afford continued experimentation with Star Wars. Even as the ST has hit diminishing returns there have been bright spots. Jedi: Fallen Order seems to have righted the games department for now, and The Mandalorian has proven that not only can Star Wars work in live action TV, but that it can be great. The seventh season TCW is coming too. If anything, the choice to abandon the ST-era, best revealed through the axing of The Resistance animated show, ought to lead to more flexibility going forward. I actually think it would be far better if Disney went forward with smaller, more character-driven Star Wars films rather than trying to launch another set of galaxy-saving epics.

[Zevox]

Yeah, there's a divide that is going to be hard to mend. Making stuff like This is what would make me lose interest. Last Jedi is what revitalized my interest. This was just not as well made a movie, it felt like the worst of the EU stuff.

I can't speak to Rise of Skywalker, not having seen it. As far as the Disney films go, what I'd most want to see more films like is Rogue One, personally - that one left me the happiest and with the greatest optimism for future films. The Force Awakens was okay, but too rehashy, and already left me unhappy with Kylo as the villain. Solo was fine but forgettable. The Last Jedi I can legitimately only think of two things I liked about it: Rey's parents being revealed to be nobodies, and Snoke telling off Kylo at the start for his failure in TFA. And that last is only because I agreed with him.

Though, really, I don't think I want future films to follow the specific formula of any of those. I just want fun stories with characters I can enjoy watching. I just feel like I got that out of Rogue One, and a little of it out of Solo at times. In contrast the Last Jedi just did the opposite, giving me no enjoyment, just various levels of disappointment and anger at almost everything about it.

[The Glyphstone]

Wait, that wasn't General Hux leading the Final Order? I legitimately didn't realize it was a new character.

[Seerow]

Wait, that wasn't General Hux leading the Final Order? I legitimately didn't realize it was a new character.

Spoiler

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Hux died in the second act, immediately after saving Poe/Finn. Some new character took over after that

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

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Hux died in the second act, immediately after saving Poe/Finn. Some new character took over after that

Spoiler

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...Hux was the mole? Gawt Doom, I thought that was the new character, because I thought the new leader was Hux.

[Devonix]

Spoiler

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...Hux was the mole? Gawt Doom, I thought that was the new character, because I thought the new leader was Hux.

Spoiler: It literally says Spoilers ahoy, why are we hiding things?

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Hux undermining the First Order out of Spite was something I liked. Though could have been handled a lot better. I'd have actually preferred open division between the Military and Kylo Ren's followers, as I saw that as another good thing in Last Jedi that was actually set up well in Force Awakens.

[zinycor]

Spoiler: It literally says Spoilers ahoy, why are we hiding things?

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Hux undermining the First Order out of Spite was something I liked. Though could have been handled a lot better. I'd have actually preferred open division between the Military and Kylo Ren's followers, as I saw that as another good thing in Last Jedi that was actually set up well in Force Awakens.

Spoiler: Hiding, hiding, hiding

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I agree, that was a good idea, with a very bad execution. if they didn't try to make it a mystery, and showed to us the hardships Hux went to to betray the frt order it would have been much mor entertaining. Bonus points if he were to interact meaningfully with the rest of the cast.

At last,is was only a good idea. One they wasted.

[Peelee]

It literally says Spoilers ahoy, why are we hiding things?

It says a lot of stuff![/Hermes Conrad]

The Mod Ogre: Speaking as both a Mod and someone who has not seen this yet, bear in mind that spoilers CAN be discussed here, so if you haven't seen it yet, be aware of that. HOWEVER, if you HAVE seen it, be polite and use the spoiler tag. It's not the law; it's just polite.

[ImperiousLeader]

Also, TLJ is directly responsible for several of the major problems of RoS. Bringing Palpatine back, and everything connected to it, is ridiculous and stupid plotline and everyone knows it, but there was no good option when intended BBEG Snoke got cut in half in the middle of TLJ. Likewise the reduction of General Hux to a joke character forced the introduction of new character General Pryde. And while Richard E. Grant makes an excellent Imperial, and Pryde might actually be the best pure villain in the ST, the role is massively underwritten and lacks impact because of his late-stage introduction.

I have to disagree with this assertion. The problem wasn't TLJ, it was the decision to spend half of Rise retconning TLJ.

I try to imagine what would happen if the Original Trilogy had happened now. Imagine the Twitter explosion after ESB came out, and people going nuts that it is such BS to make Darth Vader Luke's Father, how it destroys Obi-wan's character. And imagine RotJ decided to "fix" that "mistake" and now ... oops, no Vader was just lying to get in Luke's head, they're not related at all!

That's what Rise did, and it really sucks. By exerting so much effort resetting the board, it did a disservice to all the characters, it made this fetch-quest of a movie plot and just was so jumbled and jumpy. And it wasn't necessary, if you'd leaned into what TLJ did, you could've had a far better movie.

[Mechalich]

I have to disagree with this assertion. The problem wasn't TLJ, it was the decision to spend half of Rise retconning TLJ.

There were things in TLJ that had to be written around and/or retconned in order to make Episode IX possible. Star Wars is an epic melodrama. It has to have a villain. At the end of TLJ there was no functional villain. Snoke was dead, Hux was reduced to a joke, and Kylo Ren was stumbling towards some kind of redemption and had also lost to the heroine twice. RoS had to invent a villain for the final movie and it had to be a villain who was somehow worthy of representing a conclusion to what was supposed to be a single 9-movie saga (that was a bad idea to begin with, but it was the announced intent). Abrams chose to bring Palpatine back from the dead. That was not a good decision, but there were no good options available. Likewise there's a really dumb line fairly late in Rise that says the 'Holdo Maneuver' is 'one-in-million.' It's an incredibly terrible bit of dialogue that's absolutely out of place and hurts to hear, but at the same time it's absolutely necessary, because if you allow the Holdo Maneuver to stand as a viable tactical option, then you can't stage a space battle.

TLJ makes a large number of writing choices that, while they would be defensible in a stand-alone film, are absolutely incompatible with having a follow-up movie that acts as a conclusion to the story. JJ Abrams did his best to work around those issues. I'm certainly not saying all his solutions are good ones, because they aren't, but there were several burdens placed on RoS by TLJ that had no business existing.

I try to imagine what would happen if the Original Trilogy had happened now. Imagine the Twitter explosion after ESB came out, and people going nuts that it is such BS to make Darth Vader Luke's Father, how it destroys Obi-wan's character. And imagine RotJ decided to "fix" that "mistake" and now ... oops, no Vader was just lying to get in Luke's head, they're not related at all!

Um, in RotJ Obi-Wan's force ghost shows up and, extremely famously gives his 'certain point of view' explanation for a retcon. That solution proved to be a particularly elegant way to get around Obi-Wan blatantly lying to Luke about who his father actually was, and Alec Guinness, because he was awesome, sold it perfectly.

That's what Rise did, and it really sucks. By exerting so much effort resetting the board, it did a disservice to all the characters, it made this fetch-quest of a movie plot and just was so jumbled and jumpy. And it wasn't necessary, if you'd leaned into what TLJ did, you could've had a far better movie.

The fetch-quest plot is indeed bad. It's also a problem that has nothing to do with TLJ, that one's all on Abrams. Rise of Skywalker has problems that are inherited from TLJ, problems that inherited TFA, and problems that are entirely of its own making. Having to bring Palpatine back to fill a giant villain-shaped hole in the plot is a problem inherited from TLJ. If you replace all references to Palpatine with Snoke RoS is a better movie even if you change nothing else. By contrast, Palpatine's giant fleet and all the ridiculousness associated with it is an problem entirely of this movie's own making. And of course the

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incredibly weak ending montage where the galaxy just spontaneously liberates itself from the First Order after the victory at Exogel is a failure that traces back to lack of appropriate world-building all the way back in TFA

.

Also, this idea that you could 'lean into what TLJ did' that I've seen floating around the internet is ridiculous. TLJ leaves nowhere to go. TLJ ends with literally a dozen resistance survivors with no resources and no allies facing an ascendant First Order that was embarrassed by Luke Skywalker but not strategically halted in any way whatsoever. TLJ ends with the shot of broom kid, someone who could maybe join a rebellion in ten or twenty years, not in the next movie. What sort of movie do you get by leaning into TLJ? Where's the conclusion? Explain this to me someone. How does that end in a way that isn't 'Kylo Ren rules an unstable and chaotic galaxy?'

[Serenity]

You could have just made Kylo Ren the big bad on his own, easily. I was only ever interested in anything about Snoke insofar as it relates to Kylo Ren, anyway, which is why the decision to have Kylo supplant him was the right one. If you want to give him redemption, that's not precluded by him being the central villain, and if you dont, he's rather violently rejected the possibility twice now.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think Kylo could ever have been taken seriously as a villain. I said it way back in TFA that Abrams made a brilliant decision there because any Sith character created for Ep7 would be unfavorably compared to Darth Vader by the fans, so Abrams just bought into the inevitability and created a literal in-universe Darth Vader wannabe.