Crappy parent = man

[Riftwolf]

Also, I’d argue that murdering Nale made Tarquin a bad parent to Nale, regardless of whether or not it was legal.

Only on this forum would this point need to be argued...

[Themrys]

Spoiler

Show

It's particularly interesting that Eugene apparently doesn't want Roy to know that he gave up adventuring to be with his family. He hid the fact that he chose to stay with them rather than go after Xykon. though he seems to have regretted it once he got shut out of the afterlife. The scene where he tells Roy it would've been more efficient not to have a family is particularly interesting in this respect. It makes me wonder if his callous attitude is sort of overcompensating because he doesn't want Roy to know that he actually chose his family over his revenge quest.

Perhaps he is angry at himself for making that decision, now that he has to deal with the consequences.

It is also possible that he sees it as a weakness to prioritize love over revenge. (Theoretically, he might not want Roy to feel it is somehow partly his fault for having existed, but with how overall bad he is, I can't really imagine that he'd be that considerate.)

He is very different from V in that respect - I don't think V would ever feel ashamed of choosing love, if V had had the strength of character to do it (before having to save the world became a thing, obviously). V has made it very clear that, when not distracted by V's greed for arcane power, V values Inky above all else. But then, V is not at all affected by gender stereotypes and societal expectations and doesn't ever seem to care what people in general think, only listening to Haley and Blackwing when they call V out on hurting people's feelings.

Off topic, but I really want to see V do that throwing Vself at Inky's feet and begging forgiveness thing.

[Peelee]

No, she doesn't.
Let's not be silly, please. This is a comic based on D&D. Real life logic only applies to some extent. She says she is high level enough to effectively protect her child, and there is absolutely zero reason to believe she's lying.

She doesn't have to be lying to be wrong or boneheaded. Wearing a baby on your chest as you fight vampires is a boneheaded move. Things you don't anticipate could happen. And, hey, she didn't anticipate getting dominated and her child being used as a human dwarven shield, but it happened, which is a pretty good reason to not take a baby into battle against an army of vampires.

[Schroeswald]

She doesn't have to be lying to be wrong or boneheaded. Wearing a baby on your chest as you fight vampires is a boneheaded move. Things you don't anticipate could happen. And, hey, she didn't anticipate getting dominated and her child being used as a human dwarven shield, but it happened, which is a pretty good reason to not take a baby into battle against an army of vampires.

Kudzu didn’t dieee! And that means it was a good idea!

[hroþila]

Also, I would say that V's callousness when assessing the wounds of their children was 100% meant to be interpreted as V being callous and a bad parent, not as "this is just a fun comic where the things people do are exaggerated for comedic effect!".

[CriticalFailure]

Perhaps he is angry at himself for making that decision, now that he has to deal with the consequences.

It is also possible that he sees it as a weakness to prioritize love over revenge. (Theoretically, he might not want Roy to feel it is somehow partly his fault for having existed, but with how overall bad he is, I can't really imagine that he'd be that considerate.)

He is very different from V in that respect - I don't think V would ever feel ashamed of choosing love, if V had had the strength of character to do it (before having to save the world became a thing, obviously). V has made it very clear that, when not distracted by V's greed for arcane power, V values Inky above all else. But then, V is not at all affected by gender stereotypes and societal expectations and doesn't ever seem to care what people in general think, only listening to Haley and Blackwing when they call V out on hurting people's feelings.

Off topic, but I really want to see V do that throwing Vself at Inky's feet and begging forgiveness thing.

Yeah I think he's regretting not prioritizing petty revenge over his family now that he is stuck on a cloud. I find Eugene to be quite interesting because I can't really understand how he ticks. He seems to have carried on his family history of dysfunctional father/son relationships, and he is callous and cruel to Roy about his life choices and family matters in general. The idea that he sees choosing love as a weakness is interesting. It seems to fit with his crotchety and closed off demeanor. I wonder if the whole accident with Eric changed his views on it and made him more regretful of settling down as well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe. We know from SoD that his meeting with Right-Eye was before Eric was born.

[Vinyadan]

I think that Eugene is trapped in a cycle of changing priorities. As Roy's Mum described him, he has his fixations, he follows them as long as he cares, and he is pretty good at them. Then he finds a new one, drops the old one, and doesn't care about it any more.

Eugene had his "Fyron" time. Then he had his "revenge" time. Then he had his "wife" time. Then he had some other time, maybe "magic R&D". Then he died, and he had "entering heaven", whose prerequisite was fulfilling a vow he didn't care about any more.

Spoiler: SOD

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What we see in his meeting with Right Eye is that Eugene has already turned away from revenge, but also that he isn't really prioritising family. He does give some solid general advice to Right-Eye, but R-E is a stranger, a goblin, and a servant of evil. Eugene isn't opening up to him and sharing his priorities with him, he's just turning him away in a polite and reasoned (and LG) way.

Here though there also is another element, which is that Eugene wants Roy to be a wizard. So it's not just his priorities changing, even if he still had family on top he'd still have to choose between making Wife and Son happy, or trying to turn Roy into what he wants him to be.

[Themrys]

Also, I would say that V's callousness when assessing the wounds of their children was 100% meant to be interpreted as V being callous and a bad parent, not as "this is just a fun comic where the things people do are exaggerated for comedic effect!".

Nowhere but in a D&D based comic would it be possible to know immediately and without being a trained healer that your injuries (that bleed a lot!) are not life-threatening.

And when Elan and Belkar used Roy's incapacitation by the poisoned trap to ridicule him, I don't think that was meant to be read as them being the absolute monsters that would make them in a similar real life situation. (Okay, Belkar is an absolute monster, but I don't think we are supposed to see Elan that way.)

The characters are aware of their hit points, and how many they have and how much damage they can take before their life is in danger.

[deuterio12]

I think that Eugene is trapped in a cycle of changing priorities. As Roy's Mum described him, he has his fixations, he follows them as long as he cares, and he is pretty good at them. Then he finds a new one, drops the old one, and doesn't care about it any more.

Eugene had his "Fyron" time. Then he had his "revenge" time. Then he had his "wife" time. Then he had some other time, maybe "magic R&D". Then he died, and he had "entering heaven", whose prerequisite was fulfilling a vow he didn't care about any more.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

What we see in his meeting with Right Eye is that Eugene has already turned away from revenge, but also that he isn't really prioritising family. He does give some solid general advice to Right-Eye, but R-E is a stranger, a goblin, and a servant of evil. Eugene isn't opening up to him and sharing his priorities with him, he's just turning him away in a polite and reasoned (and LG) way.

Here though there also is another element, which is that Eugene wants Roy to be a wizard. So it's not just his priorities changing, even if he still had family on top he'd still have to choose between making Wife and Son happy, or trying to turn Roy into what he wants him to be.

But Eugene was right into wanting Roy to become a wizard instead of a fighter, since they're following 3rd edition rules.

A lot of lives would've been saved, a lot of suffering avoided, if Roy could just cast his own teleports/scrying/feather falls as he needed. Even with V in the party. Specially with V in the party since the elf keeps getting disabled, so an extra wizard would've been a nice redundancy.

Is it wrong for a father to want the best for his son and to be unhappy when said son instead goes learn the skills of of low-life glorified thug that ultimately gets said son killed?

[Quebbster]

But Eugene was right into wanting Roy to become a wizard instead of a fighter, since they're following 3rd edition rules.

A lot of lives would've been saved, a lot of suffering avoided, if Roy could just cast his own teleports/scrying/feather falls as he needed. Even with V in the party. Specially with V in the party since the elf keeps getting disabled, so an extra wizard would've been a nice redundancy.

Is it wrong for a father to want the best for his son and to be unhappy when said son instead goes learn the skills of of low-life glorified thug that ultimately gets said son killed?

There's a big difference between thinking your child could have made better life choices and mocking said child for those choices.

But let's say Roy was a spellcaster instead. How would the Order have gotten out of the Dungeon of Dorukan without Roy hulking out and taking Xykon out of the fight before he had a chance to react?

[hroþila]

Nowhere but in a D&D based comic would it be possible to know immediately and without being a trained healer that your injuries (that bleed a lot!) are not life-threatening.

And when Elan and Belkar used Roy's incapacitation by the poisoned trap to ridicule him, I don't think that was meant to be read as them being the absolute monsters that would make them in a similar real life situation. (Okay, Belkar is an absolute monster, but I don't think we are supposed to see Elan that way.)

The characters are aware of their hit points, and how many they have and how much damage they can take before their life is in danger.

Sure, but the tone of those scenes was completely different - tone matters in a comedy comic strip. And regardless, V's children were visibly distressed, quite independently from their wounds, and V still chose to take disproportionate and cruel revenge on an already dead enemy rather than comfort them first. Roy was not distressed.

[Themrys]

There's a big difference between thinking your child could have made better life choices and mocking said child for those choices.

Very. Let's not forget that most real life parents who want their child to become something that pays well instead of an artist are right, from a pragmatic, money-earning point of view.

Most people would still agree that parents should prioritize their children's happiness over money.

Perhaps Roy is less efficient as a fighter than he could be as wizard. So what? If being a fighter is what makes him happy, and he earns enough money adventuring as fighter to make a living, where's the problem?

He didn't even know that Eugene had saddled him with that oath.


Leaving your child with a large, unpaid debt, but never telling him that that's what you did, instead trying to get him to change his career plans to something more effective at paying off that debt by mocking his dreams = pad parenting.

Eugene would have done less damage if he had sat Roy down and explained to him that he could easily end up having to fight Xykon and that in 3rd edition, a wizard might be better able to do so than a fighter.
Then he would still be to blame for making that oath, and not fulfilling it before starting a family, in the first place, but he wouldn't have added the damage to Roy's self esteem on top of it.

[deuterio12]

There's a big difference between thinking your child could have made better life choices and mocking said child for those choices.

But let's say Roy was a spellcaster instead. How would the Order have gotten out of the Dungeon of Dorukan without Roy hulking out and taking Xykon out of the fight before he had a chance to react?

Wizard Roy: YOU! (bull's Strength) BROKE! (polymorph self) MY! (mage's Transformation) SWORD! (Haste, go and reduce Xykon to pieces with his bare hands, then catch up with Redcloak and crush the phylactery for good measure, since being a Wizard Roy would know that about liches instead of being a dumb fighter with crappy knowledge skills).

That's the interesting thing with 3rd edition wizards, they can fight better than the Fighter class! (also clerics, Durkon's much better at hulking out than Fighter Roy).

Let's not forget that most real life parents who want their child to become something that pays well instead of an artist are right, from a pragmatic, money-earning point of view.

Being a Fighter in 3rd edition is not "screw being a doctor, I'll be an artist", it's "screw being a doctor, I'll be a hobo".

The wizard is not onlly better paid, he could also be a better artist, or a professor, or many things that the fighter can only dream of.

Any parent is right to want to prevent their children from becoming hobos.

Most people would still agree that parents should prioritize their children's happiness over money.

Perhaps Roy is less efficient as a fighter than he could be as wizard. So what? If being a fighter is what makes him happy, and he earns enough money adventuring as fighter to make a living, where's the problem?

That Roy not only got himself killed being a Fighter that can't even take a fall but also that the rest of the world if not the gods themselves may be destroyed along reality?

Kinda hard being happy when you're dead or there's no world/reality to be happy in.

He didn't even know that Eugene had saddled him with that oath.


Leaving your child with a large, unpaid debt, but never telling him that that's what you did, instead trying to get him to change his career plans to something more effective at paying off that debt by mocking his dreams = pad parenting.

Eugene would have done less damage if he had sat Roy down and explained to him that he could easily end up having to fight Xykon and that in 3rd edition, a wizard might be better able to do so than a fighter.
Then he would still be to blame for making that oath, and not fulfilling it before starting a family, in the first place, but he wouldn't have added the damage to Roy's self esteem on top of it.

Eugene didn't know the debt would pass on to his children until he himself was dead.

[Peelee]

Eugene didn't know the debt would pass on to his children until he himself was dead.

So after he died the first time, he knew, and could have explained to Roy at any point after that.

[factotum]

So after he died the first time, he knew, and could have explained to Roy at any point after that.

That's assuming Eugene remembered his post-mortem interview when he was rezzed, which isn't necessarily the case. After Roy was rezzed he said he remembered his father, and the cloud, but he didn't mention the interview either, so we don't know for sure he remembered that part either.

[Quebbster]

Wizard Roy: YOU! (bull's Strength) BROKE! (polymorph self) MY! (mage's Transformation) SWORD! (Haste, go and reduce Xykon to pieces with his bare hands, then catch up with Redcloak and crush the phylactery for good measure, since being a Wizard Roy would know that about liches instead of being a dumb fighter with crappy knowledge skills).

That's the interesting thing with 3rd edition wizards, they can fight better than the Fighter class! (also clerics, Durkon's much better at hulking out than Fighter Roy).

I assume that Wizard Roy would not have the same Deep emotional Connection to the sword since the famly legacy was the main reason he wanted to become a fighter in the first Place. If you assume Wizard Roy is "like Fighter Roy but can also cast spells"... Well, Haley would probably be more effective if she could cast spells too. Or pretty much any non-spellcaster in the story. That's not the Point of this story though.

That Roy not only got himself killed being a Fighter that can't even take a fall but also that the rest of the world if not the gods themselves may be destroyed along reality?

Kinda hard being happy when you're dead or there's no world/reality to be happy in.

I must have missed the scene where Teen Roy was informed he would need to duel an Epic lich for the fate of the entire World Before deciding to become a fighter.

That's assuming Eugene remembered his post-mortem interview when he was rezzed, which isn't necessarily the case. After Roy was rezzed he said he remembered his father, and the cloud, but he didn't mention the interview either, so we don't know for sure he remembered that part either.

He remembers at least one thing he was told by the deva. Doesn't mean he remembers it all of course, but some details apparently stick at least.
On the other hand, we know the afterlife routines are subject to change, so maybe Eugene didn't get his interview until he met his final Death?

[hroþila]

Wizard Roy: YOU! (bull's Strength) BROKE! (polymorph self) MY! (mage's Transformation) SWORD! (Haste, go and reduce Xykon to pieces with his bare hands, then catch up with Redcloak and crush the phylactery for good measure, since being a Wizard Roy would know that about liches instead of being a dumb fighter with crappy knowledge skills).

Lots of rounds spent casting stuff while Xykon does nothing. Also, what sword?

[Emanick]

Lots of rounds spent casting stuff while Xykon does nothing. Also, what sword?

That's not even mentioning the fact that Mage's Transformation would be too high a level for Wizard!Roy to cast at that point in the story.

[Quebbster]

Imagine how different things would have been if Shojo had become a wizard instead of an Aristocrat though. He could have just blasted Miko instead of letting her kill him.

[Peelee]

That's assuming Eugene remembered his post-mortem interview when he was rezzed, which isn't necessarily the case. After Roy was rezzed he said he remembered his father, and the cloud, but he didn't mention the interview either, so we don't know for sure he remembered that part either.

IIRC the memories were fuzzy after he passed through the gates, not before.

[137beth]

So after he died the first time, he knew, and could have explained to Roy at any point after that.

He was told he couldn't get in after dying of old age. I don't think there is any indication that he knew after his first death. Either way, though, he could have told Roy during the first dungeon.

[Schroeswald]

He was told he couldn't get in after dying of old age. I don't think there is any indication that he knew after his first death. Either way, though, he could have told Roy during the first dungeon.

Spoiler: Vaguely SoD/OtOoPCs I guess

Show

He did know about the Blood Oath passing to his children before his final death, we know this because he told Roy it would pass on to him and Julia while he was alive, he didn't know everything, like that it had to go to Roy or that he couldn't get to the afterlife

[factotum]

I entirely managed to forget that conversation, Schroeswald--good point. OK, objection withdrawn, Eugene definitely knew he was passing on his Blood Oath before his final death. What he didn't seem to realise was that passing on the Blood Oath to his children didn't mean he would be able to get into Celestia...

[Jasdoif]

IIRC the memories were fuzzy after he passed through the gates, not before.

Pretty much.

He can remember anything from Clouds, including the dish of food he brought down the elevator with him.

Everything else is "fuzzy," not full amnesia. So he knows he saw his Mom, but not exactly what happened.

[Dion]

Has anything good ever come from a blood oath?

Maybe Eugene was from 2nd edition when bards didn’t really exist, so nobody was around to tell him that a blood oath was a really terrible idea.

Or maybe Eugene listened to his party’s bard as often as V listens to Elan.

Roger the Bard: No Eugene! The rule of stories says Blood Oaths always destroy the person who makes them! Ask Christopher Tolkien!

Eugene the Wizard: Did anyone hear a pretty dude with a lute talking? He sounds like “blah blah blah. Im a stupid bard!”

[Quizatzhaderac]

Plus Loki/Hel were always full fledged gods, so their moms are had to be godlike too otherwise they would just be puny demigods, not sitting at the top of the divine power chain.

"demigod" as referring to somebody of mixed divine an mortal blood doesn't really apply here; that's a term form a specific religion that was big on genealogies. As I understand it, a "demigod" in D&D rules is just a categorization of power.

Also, it's not really possible for most of the OOTS northern gods to have two parents in the pantheon, unless Rich invented a bunch of incestuous relationships out of whole cloth.

Come to think of it, I'm not 100% any OOTSverse gods were born or have any biological relationships, maybe they just have these relationships projected onto them by mortals.

That's not really how it went, though. Tarquin offered Nale a position as pawn, and Nale refused, so he killed him in cold blood and without a warning. So, even if Tarquin had been interested in justice, it still would have been behind his power, his plans, or his legacy, depending on what he was exactly aiming for.

Sure, Justice wasn't really Tarquin's first (or third) concern. But the decision between letting Nale go and killing him was still based off justice (or at least the appearance before his vector legion comrades).

A lot of lives would've been saved, a lot of suffering avoided, if Roy could just cast his own teleports/scrying/feather falls as he needed. Even with V in the party. Specially with V in the party since the elf keeps getting disabled, so an extra wizard would've been a nice redundancy.

I'm of the impression that in the OOTSverse (regardless of actual 3/3.5 rules) any wizard is going to spend half their time disabled like V, and that any attempts to get by without a PC tanking isn't going to be sustainable in the long term.

also clerics, Durkon's much better at hulking out than Fighter Roy

Actually, hulked out Roy beat hulked out, vamped out Durkon.

[KorvinStarmast]

Most people would still agree that parents should prioritize their children's happiness over money.

My parents would find that sentence laughable. Eugene, I suspect, was keenly aware of "Linear Fighter / Quadratic wizard" and seemed to have difficulty making clear why it was a better choice. But there were other issues, like standard "son rebels versus father" such as Eugene did with his dad.

As to the happiness line, I take a more nuanced view, in that happiness (as I see it) is a by product of a life well lived, and some luck, and the kindness of both friends and strangers: not an entitlement. My other comment on that thought is that you pose a false dichotomy, but I don't think it was intentional. (Either happiness or money has also a problem of "the excluded middle" but let's not go there).

And for me, as a parent, I wanted my kids to be well prepared for life, and if along the way in their pursuit of happiness, and any other life goals, they end up happy: good. Great. Greatest. They are both out of the house and pursuing their dreams/vocations, neither of which are the ones their parents expected. but they are doing fine and living life ... how happy they are is beyond our control. We are always there, and it just takes a phone call if anything we can do is needed.

What's that got to do with Roy and his parents?
Mombalaya, that's what.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Has anything good ever come from a blood oath?

Maybe Eugene was from 2nd edition when bards didn’t really exist, so nobody was around to tell him that a blood oath was a really terrible idea.

Or maybe Eugene listened to his party’s bard as often as V listens to Elan.

Roger the Bard: No Eugene! The rule of stories says Blood Oaths always destroy the person who makes them! Ask Christopher Tolkien!

Eugene the Wizard: Did anyone hear a pretty dude with a lute talking? He sounds like “blah blah blah. Im a stupid bard!”

The circumstances surrounding the blood oath are recounted in Start of Darkness.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Eugene decided to get the oath while in a drunken stupor, and this happened before he joined an adventuring party. (The guy administering the oath *did* tell him it was a bad idea, but he was too drunk/stubborn to care.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Like Eugene listens to anyone besides wizards and rarely his family.