Good Star Wars EU (old) books?

[Peelee]

The transparent copy of Han Solo was bad enough, but what was really frustrating was that he always died in the video game, no matter what you tried.

?

There was only one thing to try - fly out of the skyhook - and Dash lived.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The only place I remember finding much about Xizor and the Black Sun was in the Star Wars Adventure Journal back in the day. Amazing how many interesting nuggets were buried in those issues.

[DataNinja]

I still have a number of the plastic model kits of his custom fighter, the Virago, which came out in stores in the mid-90s. I’ve tried selling them at yard sales, but since the fighter never appeared on-screen no one knows what it is.

I know I only know what it looks like because of the Star Wars Vehicle Manual book. Pretty neat book, giving elaborations on a lot of lesser-known stuff. But it's a shame, since it looks cool.

[Daimbert]

I agreed with most of your post, but very much disagree on Legacy of the Force. In my opinion, LotF alone justifies Disney's decision to scrap the EU; it's really that bad. No redeeming features whatsoever.

Well, Caedus' fall has a better motivation and one that's more developed than either Anakin's or Kylo's. It also at least early on avoids the idea that Sith/Dark Siders are simple brutes who do evil for the lulz (although one negative is that at least Allston seems to forget about that later).

If you like Boba Fett and/or Mandalorians, Traviss' parts go into them in more detail than has been done pretty much anywhere else (at least before "The Mandalorian"). This might also be a detriment if you don't care for them, as she spends a lot of time on them and they don't really have any major impact on the plot.

I also thought the politics and the Jedi Council were done fairly well, and better than most books did.

Its biggest weakness is that each author did indeed love to focus on their own pet characters and themes, and if you don't like them then there are entire books that you won't like but can't skip. And I do think it's worse that NJO. But I still find it entertaining, and am pretty sure that others might as well.

And since the Dark Nest trilogy is A) written by Troy Denning who is among the worst authors to ever touch Star Wars, and B) effectively a prologue for Legacy of the Force, it's also terrible.

I agree, although I think it's terrible on its own merits, especially since the real set-up for Legacy of the Force is NJO. You can skip Dark Nest entirely and be not at all confused about any of the events on LotF.

Personally I like (parts of) the New Jedi Order series more than most here, but definitely acknowledge their flaws. However, if OP does decide to read NJO, I recommend they stop after that series because AFAIK there's not a single book set after it that's worth reading.

I liked "Millennium Falcon", although whether that's really set after that might be debatable.

[pendell]

In addition to the other recommendations (anything by Zahn), I have two:

1) Death Star, the novel. While it is non-canoned by Rogue 1, it was still a brilliantly well done story.
2) The Republic Commando novels (NOT her other work) by Karen Traviss.

The RC novels are pretty much straight military SF , especially "Triple Zero". I also like how the soldiers assigned to them develop compassion for the clones they are working with

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And eventually set up an escape route for them so they can have families and lives

which is a story very close to home for me.

Traviss ran into big trouble in some of her other works, because she OPd the Mandalorians and has Jedi taking combat instruction from them. Yeah, I agree, those stories are probably not her best work. But I'll stand up and say she did a fine job with the Republic Commando novels, again, especially the second in the series, Triple Zero.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'll also go on Nth the Thrawn trilogy and duology, as well as most of the X-Wing series.

The Courtship of Princess Leia can get a little silly at times, but it's still fun. What's funny is that some of the X-Wing books were written after it, but happen before it, and elaborate on a couple events referenced in it, which helps tie things together in a neat way. I'm sure there's a chronological reading to these books.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peelee
There was only one thing to try - fly out of the skyhook - and Dash lived.

My cousin and I could never manage it, no matter how hard we tried. It seemed like the game was coded that way so Dash would have a heroic death, and conveniently make room for Han Solo’s return.

Originally Posted by Pendell
The Republic Commando novels (NOT her other work) by Karen Traviss.

These are some of the best-written novels that I’ve read from the EU, mainly due to the author’s personal experience deploying with troops to combat zones. Can’t say more than that about her experiences here, but they're a welcome dose of relatively hard military SF into a franchise which had been lacking that.

The first couple are very good, but she fell in love with her Mandos, and they gradually became the stars of the series, along with some other shenanigans:

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The last couple books became more about finding romantic interests for every major character, and then rescuing all of the happy couples plus a lot of random Jedi from Order 66 and its aftermath.

Order 66 in particular was especially disappointing, because I was expecting an up-close look at the final moments of many Jedi, and instead we had an almost soporific scene in a command room with Jedi kills reported remotely.

That was a waste of possibilities, but otherwise I still enjoyed the Traviss novels, because she did show us a grunt’s-eye view of the transition from the last days of the Old Republic to the new Empire, when Vader was a mysterious figure who had appeared out of nowhere and was suddenly leading Imperial commandos on secret missions around the galaxy. Not perfect, but enjoyable nonetheless.

[Peelee]

My cousin and I could never manage it, no matter how hard we tried. It seemed like the game was coded that way so Dash would have a heroic death, and conveniently make room for Han Solo’s return.

So y'all never beat the game? Or did you not watch the cutscene right after?

Like, this is actually confusing me.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Peelee
So y'all never beat the game?

Apparently not. I don’t recall any cutscene in which Dash survived.

Keep in mind this was twenty years ago, so I don’t recall the details—only watching Dash die over and over as he tried to fly out of the structure. I remember the frustration and the mounting conviction there was no way to save him.

[Dire_Flumph]

So y'all never beat the game? Or did you not watch the cutscene right after?

Like, this is actually confusing me.

It's been a long time since I played it, but my recollection is that I didn't see ICBinHS^TM survive at the end either. And yes I beat the game. From what I heard later, an extra cutscene is played on harder difficulties confirming he survived. I didn't like the game enough to confirm. So it could be that you're that much better at this game than we are.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or being a dragon he just has a better feel for flying.

[Thrawn4]

Yeah, I seem to remember that the Thrawn trilogy was really good

I am in agreement with the other statements, and would like to add that "Darth Plagues" is also a very good novel that features on Palpatine's apprenticeship as well as the polical intrigues that prepare the events around episode 1-3. A lot of fun to read!

On whether or not Dash survives Shadows of the Empire:

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In SotE, you get an alternative ending where Dash survives when you play the game on the appropriate difficulty. So yeah, he survives.

[dancrilis]

I would also recommend the Darth Bane novels.

On Dash - from Wookieepedia:

In the game the player is led to believe that Rendar perishes in the blast, with a secret ending on harder difficulties revealing he secretly survived;

...

If the player beats the game on medium difficulty or higher, the game reveals that Dash Rendar escaped the skyhook via a jump to hyperspace and decided to lay low for a while. He remarks that it is good to be known as a martyr while still being alive.

So seems the game denys you the true ending if it doesn't think you were able for it.

[Aotrs Commander]

?

There was only one thing to try - fly out of the skyhook - and Dash lived.

I recall reading that whether he survived or not was actully slaved to the difficulty rating you set the game at, so he only lived on the hardest difficulty or something. Which, if true, was kind of asshat move.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thrawn4
In SotE, you get an alternative ending where Dash survives when you play the game on the appropriate difficulty.

We definitely weren't playing at an advanced level, so that would explain it.

That's actually the only thing I remember about that particular game. I was more of an X-Wing/TIE fighter player, along with Aces Over the Pacific. I wouldn't even know how to get my computer to play those now.

[Dire_Flumph]

I was more of an X-Wing/TIE fighter player, along with Aces Over the Pacific. I wouldn't even know how to get my computer to play those now.

On your own with Aces over the Pacific, but GoG.com has the entire X-Wing/TIE fighter series for sale, with the games set up to automatically run in a DOSBox shell for newer computers. Works great with no fiddling, at least for me. Games are $10/each, but go on sale all the time. Also comes with all the released versions of X-Wing and TIE Fighter (original floppy version, Collectors CD version, and the Win 95 Collector's series version. Play the Collector's CD version, it's the best by far)

TIE Fighter is still one of my top 5 games of all time.

[Peelee]

Whoops, forgot about the difficulty mqttering. My bad!

[Raimun]

There have been good suggestions for books already. Can't think of any other books to recommend.

So, I'd like to note that the story of EU was told in not just books but in other media as well.

Someone already mentioned Star Wars: Legacy-comic books. Kudos for that.

The Clone Wars-animation series is also a part of EU-canon, even though it's also part of the so called "canon" that Disney pushed forward. If you haven't watched it, it's one of the best Star Wars-things ever. Don't be fooled into thinking it's just a saturday morning cartoon. However, Rebels-animation is not part of EU. And I'm kind of curious if the last season of The Clone Wars counts as EU-canon or not.

As for videogames, there's obviously Knights of the Old Republic I&II and everything that followed but that's ancient history of Star Wars.

However, the Jedi Knight-series of games are set (mostly) after the Return of the Jedi. This game-series tells the tale that everything else that is of Star Wars, in all of its entirety, including the six movies, is ultimately merely setting up: The adventures of the one and only Kyle Katarn!

[Gnoman]

Seconding the recommendation of the Darth Bane trilogy. Bane and his apprentice Zannah are both really great and complex characters even despite (or maybe because of) their unabashed evilness, and the series goes really deep into the lore of the Sith and the Dark Side in ways few other novels do.

The MedStar duology, set during the Clone Wars and starring Barriss Offee, is another of my personal favorites. It's very character-driven and has exactly zero lightsaber fights (and only one Jedi present at all, for that matter), but if you like the more mundane side of the SW universe it's a lot of fun.

This series can best be described as M*A*S*H in space, or at least I thought so. It really felt like they were deliberately drawing on the characters from that show.



I actually liked the Vong books, albeit more for what they tried to do than for the execution.



One I haven't seen mentioned in this thread so far is Death Star, which focuses on several of the "little people" who were associated with the station during construction and operation. It pretty much exists only to explain three "plot holes" from the original, but it is pretty good as a character piece.

[Velaryon]

Daimbert, I'm going to spoiler most of my reply to you because it's probably on the lengthy side, and also because it's something of a thread derailment and I don't want to drag things too far off the topic of recommending good SW novels. Anyway, here goes:

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Well, Caedus' fall has a better motivation and one that's more developed than either Anakin's or Kylo's. It also at least early on avoids the idea that Sith/Dark Siders are simple brutes who do evil for the lulz (although one negative is that at least Allston seems to forget about that later).

That's very much not how I remember it. Admittedly it has been more than a decade since I read them, but his fall seemed highly arbitrary to me, like it happened because the authors constructed a Force-based gotcha situation for him. Anakin's fall was poorly told due to George Lucas's limitations as a screenwriter, but at least had a logical progression and understandable motivation. Kylo Ren... well, I'm not gonna try and defend that, even if I do actually hate him less than I do Darth Caedus.

If you like Boba Fett and/or Mandalorians, Traviss' parts go into them in more detail than has been done pretty much anywhere else (at least before "The Mandalorian"). This might also be a detriment if you don't care for them, as she spends a lot of time on them and they don't really have any major impact on the plot.

I don't have strong opinions one way or the other about Mandalorians, except that I found Karen Traviss's obsession with them to be highly irritating. She forcibly injected them into a story where they didn't really belong, and actively tried to rewrite Star Wars canon to make Jedi the bad guys on multiple occasions. I could maybe buy that Jaina could learn some anti-Jedi techniques from Mandalorians that Caedus wouldn't be prepared for, but Traviss's portrayal of Jaina as a "spoiled Jedi princess" (which if it's not an actual quote, is pretty darn close) when she was by that time a decorated war hero and a veteran starfighter squadron leader, was absolutely absurd.

I also thought the politics and the Jedi Council were done fairly well, and better than most books did.

I can't say I remember much of the Jedi Council's portrayal from these books. What was it that you liked?

Its biggest weakness is that each author did indeed love to focus on their own pet characters and themes, and if you don't like them then there are entire books that you won't like but can't skip. And I do think it's worse that NJO. But I still find it entertaining, and am pretty sure that others might as well.

Oh yeah, definitely. With Allston it was hyper-competent Wedge. With Traviss it was super amazing Boba Fett. With Denning it was that obnoxious cockroach of a fallen Jedi named Alema Rar. If any one of the three authors could have put aside their personal Mary Sue characters and actually worked together, maybe the series wouldn't have been such an incoherent mess.

I agree, although I think it's terrible on its own merits, especially since the real set-up for Legacy of the Force is NJO. You can skip Dark Nest entirely and be not at all confused about any of the events on LotF.

While the majority of the events of Dark Nest don't really have many ramifications afterward, it did introduce Alema Rar, as well as further isolate Jacen from the other Jedi. I'll agree that they're crummy all on their own.

I liked "Millennium Falcon", although whether that's really set after that might be debatable.

I don't remember whether I've read this one, so I can't really comment.

I recall reading that whether he survived or not was actully slaved to the difficulty rating you set the game at, so he only lived on the hardest difficulty or something. Which, if true, was kind of asshat move.

As annoying as that is, it's not the only time I've seen something like that nor even the worst example. This makes me think of Streets of Rage 3 on the Sega Genesis, where you could not play past the 5th stage on easy difficulty. You'd get a fake ending in which one of the characters literally says "I guess we'll have to try harder," and the only way to reach later stages was to play on higher difficulties.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Anything by Zahn, especially the Thrawn books, is a good choice.

The New Jedi Order series is a pretty good way to figure out how much of the EU you want to read. A lot of the authors have other stuff in the EU you can go to if you like them in NJO, and NJO as a whole is a good microcosm of the quality of the EU, with a continuous plot to motivate you to keep reading them all. I wouldn't START with it*, but if you've got some time, it's not a bad option.

The first couple of Traviss' Republic Commando books are very good and highly recommended, but when you read one and go "eh, that wasn't really as good", stop there. They won't get any better after that.

For something no one has mentioned yet, I'm a big fan of Shatterpoint. Set between Eps 2 and 3, it's Mace Windu being badass and trying to understand what the Jedi pacifism actually means in an all-out war. And I really enjoy that sort of introspection.

The various movie novelizations are also worth a look. I don't remember them all that well, but the Revenge of the Sith one was at least an improvement on the movie. They tend to actually add stuff that matters and eliminate stuff that doesn't, even if there's only so much that can be done with the base materials.

*and it wouldn't hurt to listen to people who remember them better than me to help you dodge the real stinkers, no need to read all 19

[KatsOfLoathing]

For something no one has mentioned yet, I'm a big fan of Shatterpoint. Set between Eps 2 and 3, it's Mace Windu being badass and trying to understand what the Jedi pacifism actually means in an all-out war. And I really enjoy that sort of introspection.

The various movie novelizations are also worth a look. I don't remember them all that well, but the Revenge of the Sith one was at least an improvement on the movie. They tend to actually add stuff that matters and eliminate stuff that doesn't, even if there's only so much that can be done with the base materials.

I'd forgotten about Shatterpoint, that one's a good read, though the psychedelic/mind-screwy elements of it can be a little weird at first, and the ending felt kind of rushed for me. The RotS novelization was also pretty good, and I'd add in Labyrinth of Evil, another Clone Wars novel which takes place immediately prior to Episode 3 (and kinda-sorta adapts one episode of the original Clone Wars cartoon, among other things).

[Dire_Flumph]

I remember the OT trilogy novelizations had some neat lore tidbits here and there, but the RotS novelization is the only one I've recommended people read. Stover took the story and just nailed the execution. The weaker points in the script were minimized, the dialogue made better, characters were fleshed out. It's a great look at how much better the prequel movies could have been if Lucas had managed to find a good collaborator he could work with to help him iron things out more. The other two prequel novelizations were just terrible though. I will admit I'm tempted to read the Rise of Skywalker novelization when it comes out just to see what they can do to work with that mess.

[Caledonian]

I'd actually like to offer a defense of The Crystal Star - it's not that it's a bad novel, and Vonda McIntyre has quite a few excellent SF novels under her belt. It's not all that thematically consistent with Star Wars, and so it's not a great SW novel.

Definitely read the Thrawn novels. Timothy Zahn is a great writer of SF pageturners, with the occasional bit of truly memorable literature, but he outdid himself with the Thrawn Cycle. The character of Thrawn is still used in writing classes of an example of how to write a believable and compelling antagonist and make them seem to be a serious threat without either giving them magic omnicompetency or relying on deus ex machina.

[Peelee]

I'd actually like to offer a defense of The Crystal Star - it's not that it's a bad novel, and Vonda McIntyre has quite a few excellent SF novels under her belt. It's not all that thematically consistent with Star Wars, and so it's not a great SW novel.

Given that the book was supposed to be a SW novel, I'd say that qualifies it to be a bad novel.

[Daimbert]

Haven't been back for a bit, so responding a bit late ...

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That's very much not how I remember it. Admittedly it has been more than a decade since I read them, but his fall seemed highly arbitrary to me, like it happened because the authors constructed a Force-based gotcha situation for him. Anakin's fall was poorly told due to George Lucas's limitations as a T, but at least had a logical progression and understandable motivation. Kylo Ren... well, I'm not gonna try and defend that, even if I do actually hate him less than I do Darth Caedus.

Caedus has a few motivations. What drives him at first is the political, with the problems over Corellia that he has some personal attachments to. Finding people who respected Vader/Anakin for taking on such concerns helps. Then he has the personal issue with his daughter and that settling these issues is going to matter to her survival, as per his Force visions. Then there's the training he's getting and the explicit arguments over that. For the most part, he has reasons for thinking that the Dark Side might be the way that are believable, and you can see that it's a progression and that he's led that way by one action and justification leading to the next, which is missing in the other works. He starts down the path for reasons that could at least be called good and once he starts down it finds it impossible to get off.

I don't have strong opinions one way or the other about Mandalorians, except that I found Karen Traviss's obsession with them to be highly irritating. She forcibly injected them into a story where they didn't really belong, and actively tried to rewrite Star Wars canon to make Jedi the bad guys on multiple occasions. I could maybe buy that Jaina could learn some anti-Jedi techniques from Mandalorians that Caedus wouldn't be prepared for, but Traviss's portrayal of Jaina as a "spoiled Jedi princess" (which if it's not an actual quote, is pretty darn close) when she was by that time a decorated war hero and a veteran starfighter squadron leader, was absolutely absurd.

My recollection of the line was that that was Fett's and perhaps other Mandalorians' comment on her, and they were probably trying to get her goat doing that. And yes, that's pretty much a direct quote. And I do recall that part of that was less that she's never suffered and more that she always had a prominent place in the galaxy and, to some extent, always got to do what she thought best because of that.

I can't say I remember much of the Jedi Council's portrayal from these books. What was it that you liked?

I like political discussions and debates that reflect different viewpoints, and the Council gets a lot of that in the series, and more than we'd seen elsewhere.

Oh yeah, definitely. With Allston it was hyper-competent Wedge. With Traviss it was super amazing Boba Fett. With Denning it was that obnoxious cockroach of a fallen Jedi named Alema Rar. If any one of the three authors could have put aside their personal Mary Sue characters and actually worked together, maybe the series wouldn't have been such an incoherent mess.

I like Wedge and Fett, and so could tolerate that part, but Alema Rar really did irritate me a ton. I can also see how Fett would be annoying. Wedge I'm not so sure about because if you've read the other EU books that's pretty much his character at that point, but the other two weren't as prominent and so these sections are an introduction/reintroduction to the characters.

[Olinser]

I recall reading that whether he survived or not was actully slaved to the difficulty rating you set the game at, so he only lived on the hardest difficulty or something. Which, if true, was kind of asshat move.

Only by today's standards.

By 90's video games it was completely typical. Plenty of other games did it in the 90's and early 2000's. Heck a lot of modern games did it too.

You only got the True Ending or the Golden Ending if you beat it on highest difficulty, or in games without difficulty, by defeating all bonus bosses, 100% exploring, beating it within a specific amount of time, or by completing specific tasks before beating the game. The new ending was the reward for actually beating it.