Pokémon Thread XXX: Hot Skitty on Wailord Action!

[TaiLiu]

They do. Walling and stalling.

Do you know the difference between them? I thought they were the same thing. :O

Depends on if we're talking singles or doubles. In singles, full stall teams can be good, but individual defensive Pokémon generally don't do much. In doubles, on the other hand, single defensive Pokémon can be very strong, using support moves to buff and heal its ally or debuff and control the enemy. In fact, the most powerful Pokémon in VGC right now is support Incineroar.

I didn't know that. That's really cool. I just assumed defensive Pokémon buffed themselves and then Baton Pass'd the stat increases to another Pokémon. Or maybe they used Toxic.

[Spore]

Do you know the difference between them? I thought they were the same thing. :O

Semantics really. As I understand it you can switch in a pokemon with a formidable defense to take a huge hit (quad resistance or high def/spdef) that is otherwise not built for taking hits -> walling.

Stalling to me is having a defensive pokemon use healing moves/leftovers, protect and/or entry hazards/toxic to win a longer turn cycle over attrition -> stalling.

[TaiLiu]

Semantics really. As I understand it you can switch in a pokemon with a formidable defense to take a huge hit (quad resistance or high def/spdef) that is otherwise not built for taking hits -> walling.

Stalling to me is having a defensive pokemon use healing moves/leftovers, protect and/or entry hazards/toxic to win a longer turn cycle over attrition -> stalling.

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

[MCerberus]

TCG has 3 kinds of defensive mons, stall, wall, and mill

there are also some defensive supports which are different because they just sit on the bench with an active ability. and a lot of the stallers are actually quite squishy but can royally mess up common deck strategies so that the opponent can't attack or will hit against immunity doing nothing

[TaiLiu]

TCG has 3 kinds of defensive mons, stall, wall, and mill

there are also some defensive supports which are different because they just sit on the bench with an active ability. and a lot of the stallers are actually quite squishy but can royally mess up common deck strategies so that the opponent can't attack or will hit against immunity doing nothing

Could you explain a lil more? I looked at the cards, but it's not clear to me what the differences are. :O

[Fable Wright]

Could you explain a lil more? I looked at the cards, but it's not clear to me what the differences are. :O

Not a Pokemon TCG player, but my understanding from other games:

Snorlax: Block ability prevents the active pokemon from retreating, and acts as a 150 HP basic pokemon. It prevents the opponent from developing their game state, hence 'stall'.
Hisuian Goodra: Takes 80 less damage from attacks, and can full heal itself once during the game. If your opponent doesn't have attacks that hit for enough damage or ignore the damage reduction, they will never get through Hisuian Goodra. It is a wall.
Great Tusk: Puts cards from library into graveyard; if the opponent reaches 0 cards in library, they lose, even if you haven't taken all the prize cards or run them out of backline pokemon. Generally, your goal with mill is to last long enough to win via deck out. For example, milling them for a few turns with Great Tusk while you develop your Hisuian Goodra. It's a defensive strategy (your goal is not necessarily KO all your opponents' pokemon) but not necessarily involves unkillable pokemon. (For example, if you put out Great Tusk early, there's a good chance it'll get KO'd without too much issue, but you used it to get three turns of mill so the opponent will run out of cards nine turns before you do; then all you need to do is get a sufficiently large wall and to wait.)

[Bartmanhomer]

I never got into Pokemon TCG but it sounds very interesting with the 3 defensive strategies and tactics.

[OracleofWuffing]

I didn't know that. That's really cool. I just assumed defensive Pokémon buffed themselves and then Baton Pass'd the stat increases to another Pokémon. Or maybe they used Toxic.

Possibly the most famous example of walling without stat boosters or residual damage was the 2014 VGC World Championship, with Se Jun Park's Pachirisu. If your opponent can't hit your damage dealers, they're in for a bad time...

And to make myself look really old while I'm at it, one of the strategies back in the Base Set days of the Trading Card Game, was one Mewtwo and 59 Psychic Energy cards. In those days, if you didn't have a Basic Pokemon in your opening hand, your opponent got to see your hand and got to draw two cards before you shuffled and redrew, repeating until you got your Basic Pokemon and could then start the game. You'd then focus on using nothing but Barrier for the rest of the game. Even though you're almost guaranteeing your opponent a massive hand advantage, there weren't many options to put cards back into the deck at the time, so if your opponent couldn't work around your defenses, winning was a matter of turns due to decking out. It was far from a perfect strategy, but it didn't take long to change the "opponent draws 2 cards" to an optional step, and looking up the rules now it's knocked down to one card with judges suggested to intervene if it happens too much.

Another nasty wall was the non-Japanese print of Slowking, where some doofus forgot to include the line, "If this card is your active pokemon," in its Pokemon Power. So, when your opponent played a Trainer Card (uh, I think they're analogous to Spell Cards in other games), there'd be a 50/75/87.5/99.93% chance of that card going to the top of your opponent's deck with no other effect, depending on how many Slowkings were in play. They'd draw that card the following turn, so their options were to succeed against the odds or just not play any Trainers if they wanted to actually get cards into their hands. And for the most part, it's somewhat important to have cards in your hand when you're playing a card game...

[MCerberus]

I'm pretty sure that is the first official errata to exist for the TCG too, with the second being they buffed potion for the reprints. It also explains why there are no reactions/interrupts like that since... I think cleffa all the way back in gold/silver. Everything else is resolved after the action. Which is a shame, becausea card game equivalent of focus sash would be really spicy in the current meta.

[TaiLiu]

Not a Pokemon TCG player, but my understanding from other games:

Snorlax: Block ability prevents the active pokemon from retreating, and acts as a 150 HP basic pokemon. It prevents the opponent from developing their game state, hence 'stall'.
Hisuian Goodra: Takes 80 less damage from attacks, and can full heal itself once during the game. If your opponent doesn't have attacks that hit for enough damage or ignore the damage reduction, they will never get through Hisuian Goodra. It is a wall.
Great Tusk: Puts cards from library into graveyard; if the opponent reaches 0 cards in library, they lose, even if you haven't taken all the prize cards or run them out of backline pokemon. Generally, your goal with mill is to last long enough to win via deck out. For example, milling them for a few turns with Great Tusk while you develop your Hisuian Goodra. It's a defensive strategy (your goal is not necessarily KO all your opponents' pokemon) but not necessarily involves unkillable pokemon. (For example, if you put out Great Tusk early, there's a good chance it'll get KO'd without too much issue, but you used it to get three turns of mill so the opponent will run out of cards nine turns before you do; then all you need to do is get a sufficiently large wall and to wait.)

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.

Players each have sixty cards each, right? I wonder how long it'd take to win via deck out.

Possibly the most famous example of walling without stat boosters or residual damage was the 2014 VGC World Championship, with Se Jun Park's Pachirisu. If your opponent can't hit your damage dealers, they're in for a bad time...

And to make myself look really old while I'm at it, one of the strategies back in the Base Set days of the Trading Card Game, was one Mewtwo and 59 Psychic Energy cards. In those days, if you didn't have a Basic Pokemon in your opening hand, your opponent got to see your hand and got to draw two cards before you shuffled and redrew, repeating until you got your Basic Pokemon and could then start the game. You'd then focus on using nothing but Barrier for the rest of the game. Even though you're almost guaranteeing your opponent a massive hand advantage, there weren't many options to put cards back into the deck at the time, so if your opponent couldn't work around your defenses, winning was a matter of turns due to decking out. It was far from a perfect strategy, but it didn't take long to change the "opponent draws 2 cards" to an optional step, and looking up the rules now it's knocked down to one card with judges suggested to intervene if it happens too much.

Another nasty wall was the non-Japanese print of Slowking, where some doofus forgot to include the line, "If this card is your active pokemon," in its Pokemon Power. So, when your opponent played a Trainer Card (uh, I think they're analogous to Spell Cards in other games), there'd be a 50/75/87.5/99.93% chance of that card going to the top of your opponent's deck with no other effect, depending on how many Slowkings were in play. They'd draw that card the following turn, so their options were to succeed against the odds or just not play any Trainers if they wanted to actually get cards into their hands. And for the most part, it's somewhat important to have cards in your hand when you're playing a card game...

Oo, I remember learning about the Pachirisu. Park was just a teen back then. I wonder what makes a good e-sports player. Is it more like being a good chess player or more like being a good physical sports player?

That's pretty cool. Were you a TCG player then?

That's amazing. No wonder they banned it. The link mentions that Wormadam was later banned. Which I guess shows how different the TCG is from the video games, cuz it's hard to imagine that happening for the VGC.

I'm pretty sure that is the first official errata to exist for the TCG too, with the second being they buffed potion for the reprints. It also explains why there are no reactions/interrupts like that since... I think cleffa all the way back in gold/silver. Everything else is resolved after the action. Which is a shame, becausea card game equivalent of focus sash would be really spicy in the current meta.

Isn't there a Focus Sash card? :O

[Spore]

And to make myself look really old while I'm at it, one of the strategies back in the Base Set days of the Trading Card Game, was one Mewtwo and 59 Psychic Energy cards. In those days, if you didn't have a Basic Pokemon in your opening hand, your opponent got to see your hand and got to draw two cards before you shuffled and redrew, repeating until you got your Basic Pokemon and could then start the game. You'd then focus on using nothing but Barrier for the rest of the game.

Ah yes, the very early Pokemon TCG where balance was optional and you basically bought power, lol. I distinctly remember trying to get my Grass/Fire starter deck to work facing fully built meta decks and gawking in awe how powerful Charizard and Blastoise were - as either murdered my poor Charmanders and Weedles.

[OracleofWuffing]

Players each have sixty cards each, right? I wonder how long it'd take to win via deck out.

Each deck has 60 cards, your opening hand is 7 cards, and you set aside 6 cards at the start of the game that you draw each time you knock out an opponent's pokemon. You must draw a card at the start of every turn, so you're looking at about 47 turns. But even from day one, you had staples to discard your hand and draw seven or draw two cards, nowadays there are cards that are comparable to those as well as a lot more options, including discard pile manipulation. It's heavily dependent on individual deck builds. I've heard a Magic the Gathering player describe Pokemon's meta as closer to Rocket Tag, noting that decks actively include options to replenish themselves specifically because of how fast you'll draw cards.

--- Edit- Looks like the official rules for Regional Championships enforce a 50 minute + 3 turns time limit in best-of-three rounds. I don't know how frequently those requirements come up in actual play.

Oo, I remember learning about the Pachirisu. Park was just a teen back then. I wonder what makes a good e-sports player. Is it more like being a good chess player or more like being a good physical sports player?

Of the two options? I guess it'd be more like a good chess player, but I mean both of them are a lot of work into preparation and research, with a significant amount of improvisation and luck. I don't think it's worth it to draw a line between the two, you're playing a game either way. Sure, one's much more physical, but that's like 95% of the difference.

That's pretty cool. Were you a TCG player then?

I bought more decks and booster packs than I should have, I read magazines and online things, but Pokemon never caught on in my area. Most of my games were against myself. The Game Boy Color TCG title (which incidentally doesn't have people draw cards at all if their opponent has no basic pokemon in their opening hand, I wonder why) also helped, but I'm certain it is not the first video game in the world to adequately prepare someone for playing against a human opponent.

[TaiLiu]

Each deck has 60 cards, your opening hand is 7 cards, and you set aside 6 cards at the start of the game that you draw each time you knock out an opponent's pokemon. You must draw a card at the start of every turn, so you're looking at about 47 turns. But even from day one, you had staples to discard your hand and draw seven or draw two cards, nowadays there are cards that are comparable to those as well as a lot more options, including discard pile manipulation. It's heavily dependent on individual deck builds. I've heard a Magic the Gathering player describe Pokemon's meta as closer to Rocket Tag, noting that decks actively include options to replenish themselves specifically because of how fast you'll draw cards.

--- Edit- Looks like the official rules for Regional Championships enforce a 50 minute + 3 turns time limit in best-of-three rounds. I don't know how frequently those requirements come up in actual play.


Of the two options? I guess it'd be more like a good chess player, but I mean both of them are a lot of work into preparation and research, with a significant amount of improvisation and luck. I don't think it's worth it to draw a line between the two, you're playing a game either way. Sure, one's much more physical, but that's like 95% of the difference.


I bought more decks and booster packs than I should have, I read magazines and online things, but Pokemon never caught on in my area. Most of my games were against myself. The Game Boy Color TCG title (which incidentally doesn't have people draw cards at all if their opponent has no basic pokemon in their opening hand, I wonder why) also helped, but I'm certain it is not the first video game in the world to adequately prepare someone for playing against a human opponent.

Oh neat. That explains how people keep their decks and playtimes under control. Cuz learning about the sixty card thing really put me off the game.

That makes sense.

Oh, cool. Sorry that Pokémon never really caught on.

[MCerberus]

--- Edit- Looks like the official rules for Regional Championships enforce a 50 minute + 3 turns time limit in best-of-three rounds. I don't know how frequently those requirements come up in actual play.

The clock is ever-present. Some matchups will handshake the draws if the first two games are 1-1. I have personally stalled the clock after winning the first game while playing a deck that doesn't take long turns (the opponent's did but it was a matchup thing) at, I think that one was Knoxville.

To say the least control/stall deck players are not the most popular folks. Especially since scoring is 3 for win 1 for draw in a match. There is a rather brutal requirement for going into day 2 and after x rounds it takes the top 8 regardless of points. A draw is often a loss.

[Qwertystop]

I still want the spin-off game where mad scientist kidnaps a kid and fuses them with a Pokemon or otherwise turns them into some kind of hybrid with endings based on whether you stay fused, separate, or fail to escape from the bad guys.

There are a lot of concepts in Pokemon that are only around for one or two generations and never get fleshed out despite being super cool. We get a human accidentally fusing with a Pokemon in gen one and multiple pokemon being fused together in SwSH, so clearly, this kind of thing is plausible in the lore.

The bot post that brought this to my attention in a notification email was gone by the time I checked the thread - but you might want to check this fic, Mercury: http://archiveofourown.org/works/44996500

[Bartmanhomer]

There are a lot of strategies, tactics, and styles in Pokemon.