OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread

[Ikkitosen]

Eh Don't know if this is to be considered a spoiler thing - if so then please moderate the text outta here asap...

Would it not be worse than death for Miko to loose her paladinhood ? Belkar once stated that such was his goal and according to Yoda, anger leads to the dark side ;) In Belkar's view it might be much better not to kill Miko at all, but let her live on ín shame as a fallen paladin ;)

I am sure Belkar would LOVE that ;D ;D ;D

[Marller]

On the other hand, I could post a comic with Miko standing still for 12 panels, and within 5 minutes there would be someone posting, "Miko should Fall for her inaction!" ::)

Quoted for truth.
Whatever Miko does, it's always the wrong thing in some peoples opinion. She could die for a good cause and people would demand she should fall post mortem and be kicked out of whatever heaven/hell she was in because could have helped so much more people if she hadn't died.

[Amalthea]

I was quoting someone who was talking about the use of a lead sheet in a tabletop D&D game, not a comic.
Just talking D&D rules and what bringing in a weapon that auto-KOed would do.

Dude, I never said a lead sheet (or any blunt instrument for that matter) to the head was a guaranteed KO. Just that it was realistic to allow the possibility. So I allow my players to try it (I never did give the criteria for them making a KO), and that the victim always gets a Fortitude save, because (like some people I could mention) the victim could have an extraordinarily thick skull.

However my house rules for more realistic (and usable) subdual damage and KOs are off topic for this forum. If you like, I'll post them in the d20 Gaming forum. I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that the rules were created to simulate the world, and if the rules don't successfully do that, then they are in error, not the world. Rules lawyers just have to deal with it. ::)

[Lady_Orc]

Quoted for truth.
Whatever Miko does, it's always the wrong thing in some peoples opinion. She could die for a good cause and people would demand she should fall post mortem and be kicked out of whatever heaven/hell she was in because could have helped so much more people if she hadn't died.

Oh, personally I'd be quite content with her if she died, preferably painfully.

[Jefepato]

However my house rules for more realistic (and usable) subdual damage and KOs are off topic for this forum. If you like, I'll post them in the d20 Gaming forum. I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that the rules were created to simulate the world, and if the rules don't successfully do that, then they are in error, not the world. Rules lawyers just have to deal with it. ::)

You think the rules were created to simulate the world? Are we reading the same book here?

"Realistic" knockouts do not fit the genre and are deliberately not a part of the game. I recommend GURPS if you want realism.

This isn't about being a rules lawyer. This is about the fact that high-level badasses aren't supposed to be KO'd by getting WANG'd with a lead sheet -- that's why the rules are set up the way they are. A 20th-level fighter can do a cannonball into a pool of lava and survive (for a round or two), so if a DM ruled that the same fighter got knocked out by a lead sheet (because he rolled a 1 on his Fortitude save), I would walk out as soon as I recovered from my laughter.

[Amalthea]

if a DM ruled that the same fighter got knocked out by a lead sheet (because he rolled a 1 on his Fortitude save), I would walk out as soon as I recovered from my laughter.

I like how people are complaining about the rules without actually knowing what they are. Especially since my players enjoy them. You guys can expect a d20 gaming forum post sometime later today or tomorrow. Sheesh.

[Adeptus]

You think the rules were created to simulate the world? Are we reading the same book here?

"Realistic" knockouts do not fit the genre and are deliberately not a part of the game. I recommend GURPS if you want realism.

This isn't about being a rules lawyer. This is about the fact that high-level badasses aren't supposed to be KO'd by getting WANG'd with a lead sheet -- that's why the rules are set up the way they are. A 20th-level fighter can do a cannonball into a pool of lava and survive (for a round or two), so if a DM ruled that the same fighter got knocked out by a lead sheet (because he rolled a 1 on his Fortitude save), I would walk out as soon as I recovered from my laughter.

D&D is a derivative of Chainmail, which comes from the wargaming tradition. The rules were created to simulate reality originally, they've just always done a very poor job at it.

These days the 3.5 D&D is a very, very complex and detailed system, that pretty much just models D&D.

I personally dislike the system a lot, largely because it is incapable of modelling such things (like getting knocked out as Belkar vs. Miko just now), and presents a very bizarre world in any case.

Tragically D&D is so influental that all the online RPG:s are going the same route. :(

The most bizarre paradigm in D&D is the "as long as you have HP, you are fighting fit and suffer no penalties. The moment your HP drops below zero, you are critical and will die in a minute or less." Blech... Heroic reality? More like D&D reality.

[Adeptus]

I like how people are complaining about the rules without actually knowing what they are. Especially since my players enjoy them. You guys can expect a d20 gaming forum post sometime later today or tomorrow. Sheesh.

You go girl! As a long time GM friend of mine once said "Every GM worth his/her salt fiddles with the rules"

When it's broken, fix it.

[Vampire_Boy]

On the other hand, I could post a comic with Miko standing still for 12 panels, and within 5 minutes there would be someone posting, "Miko should Fall for her inaction!" ::)

Someone might indeed say that, amidst those few hundred who'd say: "What a dreadfully boring comic that was!"

[fwiffo]

Miko role in comic is to be the antagonist, someone that the other characters play off. And unlike other opponents that OOTS faced, she is no fun. Xykon and his group are fun. Linear guild is fun. Even bandits in bandit camp are fun. That is why Giant can make strips focused on those other characters and not have any OOTS there at all and make them entertaining. They have humorous traits of their own. Miko doesn't. The only way she provides entertainment is by pushing other characters into entertaining situations.

The point of the comic is to be fun. And Miko provides none of it. Look at her actions. She has not done anything amusing, like ever. The characters provide amusement and likeablity by being against her - look at Hinjo who is instantly established as a likeable character because of his opposition to Miko's methods.

And that is why Belkar is winning new fans, even among those who are not normally inclined to like him. Belkar is fun. Miko isn't. In the current 3-strip Miko-Belkar confrontation, Belkar provided 100% of the fun. His sake trap was clever, his soup fall was amusing and his lead sheet was creatively offbeat. What did Miko do in this fight that was in any way, shape or form interesting?

[Denaes]

Dude, I never said a lead sheet (or any blunt instrument for that matter) to the head was a guaranteed KO. Just that it was realistic to allow the possibility. So I allow my players to try it (I never did give the criteria for them making a KO), and that the victim always gets a Fortitude save, because (like some people I could mention) the victim could have an extraordinarily thick skull.

Okay, I partially misread what you said, sorry.

I've been in a game where someone *realistically* used alternate KO rules which circumvented HP/Subdual and it really wanked the game into a KO fest. The rogue was always trying to KO opponents from behind, the warior was just KOing foes rather than worrying about their HP.

It really depends on the game you're running. You often can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have that amount of realism (which isn't that real because people don't KO that easily like they do in movies) for Knockouts and then a different set of realism for another thing like combat.

All I was ever doing was trying to point that out and possible effects by circumventing normal combat & damage by allowing a more effecient alternate way of disposing foes.

But you're right, most of this is game rules, not really pertinent to the comic strip :)

[Amalthea]

I've been in a game where someone *realistically* used alternate KO rules which circumvented HP/Subdual and it really wanked the game into a KO fest. The rogue was always trying to KO opponents from behind, the warior was just KOing foes rather than worrying about their HP.

It really depends on the game you're running. You often can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have that amount of realism (which isn't that real because people don't KO that easily like they do in movies) for Knockouts and then a different set of realism for another thing like combat.

All I was ever doing was trying to point that out and possible effects by circumventing normal combat & damage by allowing a more effecient alternate way of disposing foes.

Your concerns (and some of the additional ones mentioned) are all valid, but I think my KO rules takes care of most of them. I'm working on typing and tidying up my set of KO house rules for posting in the d20 forum (hopefully later today), and I'd appreciate your comments. I'll link the post when I have them up.

[Vampire_Boy]

Quoted for truth.
Whatever Miko does, it's always the wrong thing in some peoples opinion. She could die for a good cause and people would demand she should fall post mortem and be kicked out of whatever heaven/hell she was in because could have helped so much more people if she hadn't died.

Oh, I'll hapily cheer for her and promote her to a likable character status, as soon as she's six feet under. :D

[Finwe]

There's no such thing as a called shot in D&D, under either 3.0 or 3.5 rules, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Ever played real life? ;)

[Sebastian]

Quoted for truth.
Whatever Miko does, it's always the wrong thing in some peoples opinion. She could die for a good cause and people would demand she should fall post mortem and be kicked out of whatever heaven/hell she was in because could have helped so much more people if she hadn't died.

OTOH whatever Miko does it is all right in other peoples opinion. She could kill a child in cold blood and they would all be "nah, it's not an evil act. he could have grown up to be a serial killer, Miko just did a preemptive smiting" ;)

A quick question, if during her first fight with Roy with that last "Smite evil" Miko had rolled a critical and killed Roy with it, would have that been enough to lose her paladinhood even only temporarily?

About rules for knockout, why don't use coup-de-grace? Fort save DC=subdual damage, but if you fail you fall unconscious.

[OzymandiasVolt]

I find everyone in the anti-Miko camp to be annoying.

I don't like her either, but I don't post fifty times about how she should hurry up and die. :P

I also don't start supporting psychopathic halflings just because they're hurting someone I dislike. He's still a little rat.


...and yeah, "WANG" is the greatest lead sheet sound effect ever.

[Denaes]

A quick question, if during her first fight with Roy with that last "Smite evil" Miko had rolled a critical and killed Roy with it, would have that been enough to lose her paladinhood even only temporarily?

No, not only did she think he was evil (you don't try to smite good guys), but she wasn't trying to kill him.

[theKOT]

I find everyone in the anti-Miko camp to be annoying.

You find everyone in the Anti-Miko camp annoying? How generalizing of you. People can hate Miko without posting a bunch about how much they want her to die(That is so annoying!), so don't lump them all together like that. But to continue on your point, you rarely hear a Mikoist saying how much they wish Belkar would die, so why do these Miko-haters have so much bloodlust? Oh right, Belkar fans... ;)

No, not only did she think he was evil (you don't try to smite good guys), but she wasn't trying to kill him.

Wait, how was she not trying to kill him?

OTOH whatever Miko does it is all right in other peoples opinion. She could kill a child in cold blood and they would all be "nah, it's not an evil act. he could have grown up to be a serial killer, Miko just did a preemptive smiting" ;)

When has Miko ever done something evil that any Mikoers have defended? Because you know that Miko has never commited an evil act, right?

[Denaes]

Wait, how was she not trying to kill him?

If her goal was to kill, she would have killed him rather than stopping to capture him. Her mission was to return them all for a trial.

[theKOT]

If her goal was to kill, she would have killed him rather than stopping to capture him. Her mission was to return them all for a trial.

Yes but once they had passed on their chance at surrendering, she was trying to kill them. "Carry out that sentence" and all.

[Jefepato]

As a long time GM friend of mine once said "Every GM worth his/her salt fiddles with the rules"

When it's broken, fix it.

Your friend is incorrect. Every GM worth his salt considers the rules carefully, but I resent the implication that every decent GM actually changes the rules. Sometimes the rules are just fine how they are, and frankly, the majority of house rules I've seen were ill-conceived at best.

Ever played real life? ;)

Why, yes, yes I have.

I'm not sure what that has to do with called shot rules, which were omitted from the D&D game for good reason. D&D isn't like real life, because frankly, real life isn't much fun. Even if you eliminated everything magical or supernatural from the game, the rules would still be so unlike a simulation of reality as to make any attempts at adding "realism" to the game absurd.

I'll read Amalthea's rules when she posts them. Maybe I'm wrong and they'll be a brilliant addition to the rules. It certainly sounds like she put more thought into them than most people who try to house-rule the game.

[garylian]

This is why its cool to have scientisits on message boards. I had honestly never really thought about just how heavy a sheet of lead like that would be. And given that a Greatsword sized for a Huge creature weighs a whopping 32 pounds... that sheet would hurt.

I feel it is safe to say that Miko's hit point total has no bearing on whether or not that big honking sheet of death... er... lead would knock her out. As such, all bets are off... again. Yay for uncertainty!

The problem with this is that often, English measurement pounds != DnD pounds. Especially if you play DDO!

[Amalthea]

People can hate Miko without posting a bunch about how much they want her to die(That is so annoying!)

QFT

[Denaes]

Yes but once they had passed on their chance at surrendering, she was trying to kill them. "Carry out that sentence" and all.

Then why isn't he dead? (aside from being a main character in the strip).

If she wanted him dead and defeated him, he would be dead.

[Finwe]

Why, yes, yes I have.

I'm not sure what that has to do with called shot rules, which were omitted from the D&D game for good reason. D&D isn't like real life, because frankly, real life isn't much fun. Even if you eliminated everything magical or supernatural from the game, the rules would still be so unlike a simulation of reality as to make any attempts at adding "realism" to the game absurd.

I'll read Amalthea's rules when she posts them. Maybe I'm wrong and they'll be a brilliant addition to the rules. It certainly sounds like she put more thought into them than most people who try to house-rule the game.

My point was that she was basing her KO argument on real life facts: in real life, a direct blow to the head with anything hard and 60+lbs will hurt, and most likely knock you out, or at least stun you for a bit.

[theKOT]

Then why isn't he dead? (aside from being a main character in the strip).

If she wanted him dead and defeated him, he would be dead.

Read strip #200
Her smite evil failed, showing that he was not evil, and durkon interrupted.

[Denaes]

My point was that she was basing her KO argument on real life facts: in real life, a direct blow to the head with anything hard and 60+lbs will hurt, and most likely knock you out, or at least stun you for a bit.

But the game doesn't have called shots, so how do you hit them in the head?

You declare an attack and if it's not enough to KO them, then it was a near miss, hitting them someplace else like the chest or back or shoulder, etc.

You describe what you *intend* to do prior to an attack. You describe what actually happens after the attack roll & damage are made to explain what happened and how it makes sense.

Remember, these rounds are awfully short (in time span) and you're both trying to avoid the hit and perform your own action (which may be attacking the other) so nothing is certain.

When you reach a point where the 60lb sheet of lead delivers enough damage to KO you, *that* is generally the point where it comes smashing down on your head. Not before.

Disclaimer: These are all D&D rules and don't reflect others houserules.

[Alfryd]

Regarding Miko.

It's not so much that Miko was magnificent as the fact that OotS is a distinctly unoptimized party...

And taking proper advantage of that makes her magnificent. The dice roll problems I mentioned.

I'm not a big fan of evil characters but Belkar is funny and Miko seems to be the "lawful stupid" stereotype that I detest in Paladins.

See under 'Lawful Smart' in the Miko FRC.

I guess the pro-Miko league has to be happy that she's still with us at all. However, I'm waiting for the dedicated "OMG lvl 12 char beats lvl 16 char Rich is fudging!!!" thread. There always was one when Miko was the one coming out on top.

You could, but I doubt Rich would take the bait this time 'round. The last fight description caused no end of trouble. Also, Belkar performing decently under controlled circumstances is rather more plausible.

You mean the way Miko killed the bandit sorceress and her dad and didn't bring them back to trial?

It wasn't really practical in that case.

I see, a paladin's priority is innocent life ... so long as it's convenient.

I'm sorry, we were talking about taking the manifestly guilty to trial? Who are these 'innocents' you refer to? Take a minute, please.

She's not doing it out of any sort of paladin code or rulebook of behavior.

Apart, presumably, from the bit that says 'respect your superiors in a morally legitimate chain of command.'

Regarding Morals.

"Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos."

Which is Retarded.

...that does not erase the fact that murder and torture are EVIL acts.

Yes, but he may believe the alternative was greater evil. There has to be a requirement of consent in addition to the objective standards of Good & Evil, or you run into manifest absurdities, such as Paladins losing their powers for rescuing helpless infants that, ubeknownst to them, grow up to be bloody dictators. Consequences and reality alone are not sufficient.

...that does not change the fact that she is committing a cosmically Lawful act by pursuing a criminal...

But she must be aware this is a cosmically good act, and this must be her primary motive, or it does not qualify as a good decision.
I don't have a problem with objective standards of morality, but these must overlap with willing consent for any sane standard of personal moral culpability to apply.

...vampire can murder and suck the blood of humans, but be truly good at heart or something.

It is theoretically possible, provided the character commits good deeds that more than counterbalance the evil.

[Paladins] lack any real power, need more feats to be any good for the most part. - Nobody seems to understand how the code works. For basic game concepts they are too hard and complicated.

I do think they should be restored as a prestige class, and a few extra class features would help considerably. Then again, I like 'jedi' paladins who believe that subterfuge and stealth are justifiable if it allows you to avoid bloodshed. 'These aren't the dryads you're looking for...' (I know, I'm filching from Blizzard. *sigh*)

Regarding Belkar.

Once the guy is dead, what more camage can you do to him? The same applies to cannibalism.

The damage isn't to the dead, but to the living. Please try to grasp this.

Belkar's not killing Miko was not a good act or an evil one, it was a classic neutral one...

But it *was* Lawful. He has an inhibition aginst killing without sport. A constraint on his behaviour, which *organises* his conduct = a Lawful tendency.

Wanting revenge on someone who has been as much of a pain as Miko has is not evil, just selfish and a bit stupid.

Killing someone purely for revenge is iffy in itself. Stretching out the act as long as possible to maximise suffering is fairly indisputably evil.

He even tried to kill Elan for exp.

I really doubt this was actually the case. Particularly since Elan was running away, therefore Belkar had already defeated him, and still got no XP. We may thus deduce that friendly fire/collateral damage grant no XP according to house rules. Thankfully.

Regarding Mechanics.

And given that a Greatsword sized for a Huge creature weighs a whopping 32 pounds...

I couldn't say, but greatswords for *humans* in excess of 10 pounds were virtually unheard of in medieval times. The average sword weighed under 1.5 kilos.

...it's realistic that someone hit in the head with a lead sheet would be either stunned or knocked completely unconscious...

It's also realistic that a single blow to the throat would result in more or less instant death. D&D specifically avoids going into this kind of detail because then everyone starts to snicker when you mention 'Hit Points.' Bloody Gygax.

100 hp (a good amount for a 10th level Fighter) is that it's a measure of luck, skill & toughness. So you can't just get a single punch and KO someone who is that skilled.

Skill should be covered by *skills* that deflect, evade, or reduce a blow. Toughness should be measured by quasi-random damage reduction or AC boni. Luck should be measured by the ability to tweak dice rolls. *Most of which already exist.* Mashing all these factors into a single undifferentiated attribute is neccesarily grossly unrealistic. It's survived purely as the embedded relic of an earlier, cruder, far more rudimentary RP system. Accept it, and you'll sleep better.

You'd want a game that was less "heroic" and more "grim/gritty"...

There is no neccesary confilct between the two if you actually leverage Plot and Role-Play over mass carnage. Not that I have a fundamental objection to mass carnage, but it should carry certain risks. Heroism is about displaying courage and insight, neither of which are required when risks are negligible. The Hero is the guy running up the stairs in a burning building when everybody else is running down, not the Hulk smashing howitzers because his near-infinite HP-regen make them roughly as hazardous as mosquitoes.

Heroic? Definetly not. It's Roadrunner vs Coyote stuff... ...
I look for a happy medium.

Bingo.

I recommend GURPS if you want realism.

No, GURPS is closer to the happy medium.

the character falls off a cliff and on the way down starts to grab at roots and rocks, acheiving nothing more than scraping his hands.

That is the 'Slow Fall' ability of Monks. Strike 1.

The character notices the rocky base of the cliff and knows it spells certain doom, so in a last ditch effort he pushes off the cliff away from the rody base area going into a tumble and crashing into the ground at a 40 degree angle reducing the damage by quite a bit.

That is the 'Tumble' skill, stretched to it's limits. Strike 2.

Suddenly a booming sound erupts from it's cannon and the barbarian throws himself to the ground to get raked over with a wave of heat and shards of broken rock & metal.

That is the Evasion ability, which he can't get. Strike 3.

Bit by bit the barbarian finds softer areas to tear apart as his Axe starts to break apart under the strain...

That is a Critical Hit description, to which constructs are immune. Strike 4.

Bad descrption making the rules look really stupid.

No, stupid rules neccesitate bad descriptions. You're just stretching the bounds of probability to the point where HP mean 'the bizarrely fortuitous always occurs,' which is utterly meaningless. Rules and stats exist to quantify and apply consistency to the DM's decisions, rather than making things up all the time, which you are effectively doing. There's nothing wrong with this per se, it's just pointless to lug around a bunch of mechanics-related baggage with you for such purposes. Go get onto IRC and Freestyle.

A 20th-level fighter can do a cannonball into a pool of lava and survive (for a round or two)

And there, we have final, incontrovertible proof that HP, as stated, are insane.

[Lady_Orc]

You find everyone in the Anti-Miko camp annoying? How generalizing of you. People can hate Miko without posting a bunch about how much they want her to die(That is so annoying!), so don't lump them all together like that. But to continue on your point, you rarely hear a Mikoist saying how much they wish Belkar would die, so why do these Miko-haters have so much bloodlust? Oh right, Belkar fans... ;)
Wait, how was she not trying to kill him?
When has Miko ever done something evil that any Mikoers have defended? Because you know that Miko has never commited an evil act, right?

Funny thing, I remember quite a few people posting about how Belkar surely must die/deserved to die back when he set Miko on fire.

Can't say that really annoyed me, though. Miko's continued existance annoys me however, and I hope to see Belkar skipping rope with her upper intestine in the near future.

[theKOT]

Funny thing, I remember quite a few people posting about how Belkar surely must die/deserved to die back when he set Miko on fire.

Can't say that really annoyed me, though. Miko's continued existance annoys me however, and I hope to see Belkar skipping rope with her upper intestine in the near future.

Exactly. The number of people who said that was very low, and it's not regular to see "I hope to see Belkar on the end of miko's sword soon!" posts, now is it? However, I'd say the majority of Belkar fans either want them in love(ew), or her dead. Your post does little to disprove the bloodlust theory though.... Upper intestine.... It's called the small inestine.