OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread

[Finwe]

ROFL at the whole comic, but the Snow white comment definately takes the cake.


Definately the best since "Evilgasm"

[Pvednes]

The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.

[theKOT]

Besides, the only "evil" he has truly shown is a absolute disdain for humans...and that is not evil.

Blood mural, Kidney harvesting, Selling people into slavery, slitting throats, attempting to kill party members for XP... The Giant made a detailed list of reasons why Belkar is evil. I don't have the link, but I am sure someone else here does.

The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.

It's all deep-rooted emotional problems.

Still he spared her. Do you think Miko would have done the same thing? I doubt it.

See the post I just quoted.

[Galad]

The strip makes it pretty clear that Belkar wasn't doing it for mercy's sake, but was simply out to have fun. I still think it is stupid of him....

Still he spared her. Do you think Miko would have done the same thing? I doubt it.

[Devils_Advocate]

Some people are still criticizing Miko for violating the court order against Detecting Evil on Belkar? Look, the whole point there was that it wasn't within her rights as his captor to violate his privacy. Belkar isn't her prisoner at the moment, he's a fugitive. A law enforcement officer is entitled to do things to stop a fleeing killer that she isn't justified in doing to an accused criminal who goes with her willingly. Such as using lethal force, for example. Wouldn't it at least make more sense to first address whether it's OK for her to do that? Unless you're saying that determining someone's alignment is a greater violation of his rights than stabbing him with a sword. ::)

EDIT: And that's without even going into the fact that they're now under the jurisdiction of Azure City, not Somewhere. It strikes me as likely that Shojo would give his paladins a lot of leeway to use their powers as they see fit. Why wouldn't he? Out of fear that they'd be corrupted by too much unchecked authority? They're paladins.

Belkar really is the perfect opponent for Miko. Just as she is more Lawful than she is Good, he is obviously more Chaotic than he is Evil.

Quoted for insightfulness.

I guess I don't. I can understand maybe him tying her up and tormenting her, but I don't see why Belkar would want her to chase him unless...(Insert spoiler from fight thread here)... Because he can't have wanted her up and fighting fit because of honor or anything like that.

Belkar likes a challenge. He doesn't try to avoid tough battles; to him, they're an incentive. After all, it's no fun if there's no chance of failure. Of course, as Belkar points out, he's not suicidal, so he's willing to swing the odds in his favor. Which he did here by taking the healing potion, thereby both restoring himself and depriving his enemy of a valuable asset. He doesn't want to swing his odds of success all the way to 100%, though. A game you can only win isn't exciting, just as a game you can only lose is pointlessly frustrating. And to Belkar, life is a game. Probably Grand Theft Auto.

"Why would he risk his life just for fun?" (Sorry, forget who asked that.) Belkar would probably respond, "Why NOT risk my life if it means I get to have fun?"

Make sense now? See, Belkar isn't the sort of Chaotic Evil that goes around kicking puppies. He's the sort of Chaotic Evil that assaults professional wrestlers several times his size, tears out their internal organs with his bare hands, turns to the shocked onlookers and proclaims, "Awww yeah. I am one tough, bad-ass ************."

[Fillbert]

Not killing her fits in perfectly to his greater scheme of humiliating her and causing her fall from paladinship (or is it paladin-hood). Evil dosen't always just kill for killing's sake, misery, torture and cruelty are alot more fun when they are still alive to experience them. ;D

[PhoeKun]

Still he spared her. Do you think Miko would have done the same thing? I doubt it.

I know you weren't talking to me, but yes, I think Miko would have spared him in that situation.

I'm absolutely baffled by the response to this comic. Belkar performs the first honorable act in his life, and people are praising him, just not for doing the right thing. Instead, its because they are just that much more certain he has a clever plan to make her Fall. Of course, to listen to some people, a Paladin would Fall for breathing (thereby killing millions of innocent microorganisms).

Last time we saw Miko, people were saying she was terrible for smiling. Now Belkar gets praised because he might have a devious plan to strip a woman of her very livlihood? I don't get it. Are my ideals that much different from everyone else's?

[theKOT]

Belkar likes a challenge. He doesn't try to avoid tough battles; to him, they're an incentive. After all, it's no fun if there's no chance of failure. Of course, as Belkar points out, he's not suicidal, so he's willing to swing the odds in his favor. Which he did here by taking the healing potion, thereby both restoring himself and depriving his enemy of a valuable asset. He doesn't want to swing his odds of success all the way to 100%, though. A game you can only win isn't exciting, just as a game you can only lose is pointlessly frustrating. And to Belkar, life is a game. Probably Grand Theft Auto.

"Why would he risk his life just for fun?" (Sorry, forget who asked that.) Belkar would probably respond, "Why NOT risk my life if it means I get to have fun?"

Make sense now? See, Belkar isn't the sort of Chaotic Evil that goes around kicking puppies. He's the sort of Chaotic Evil that assaults professional wrestlers several times his size, tears out their internal organs with his bare hands, turns to the shocked onlookers and proclaims, "Awww yeah. I am one tough, bad-ass ************."

Thank you. I guess the Giant was wrong, because whereas I didn't understand that then, I do understand Belkar now. Very good points throughout your post. Also, I was the also the person who posted the other comment.

I get it now. However, I am still unhappy because a fully healed Belkar vs a badly hurt Miko seems to be way off-balanced given the way he handled a fully healed Miko. Still, she could have beaten him if she wasn't so idiotic as to simply stop talking and start drinking that potion/attacking. I think that Miko is pretty much beat now, Although I can't see how Belkar simply defeating her then running away will further the plot, unless Miko was never intended to be anything other than an annoying character who remained static throughout her time in Oots, which I doubt. So I think that something is in store for these two, but I have no clue what.

[AmoDman]

The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.

Ahem. I believe you mean lasers and sharks. No bad guy execution plan is ever complete w/o the suffix, and sharks.

[Devils_Advocate]

Last time we saw Miko, people were saying she was terrible for smiling. Now Belkar gets praised because he might have a devious plan to strip a woman of her very livlihood? I don't get it. Are my ideals that much different from everyone else's?

It's not a matter of ideals. I think that very few people here, if any, regard Belkar as a better person than Miko. They just like him more. The fact that these are fictional characters has a lot to do with it, as does the fact that they resemble characters people have seen played in actual gaming sessions. (Who do you like more, the player with the charming, surprisingly cooperative Chaotic Evil character, or the player with the obnoxious, overbearing Lawful Good character?) I don't think a lot of people would be rooting for the "Belkar" in a showdown between similar people in real life.

[jmucchiello]

Ahem. I believe you mean lasers and sharks. No bad guy execution plan is ever complete w/o the suffix, and sharks.

Are they evil sharks?

[Maxymiuk]

I know you weren't talking to me, but yes, I think Miko would have spared him in that situation.

I'm absolutely baffled by the response to this comic. Belkar performs the first honorable act in his life, and people are praising him, just not for doing the right thing. Instead, its because they are just that much more certain he has a clever plan to make her Fall. Of course, to listen to some people, a Paladin would Fall for breathing (thereby killing millions of innocent microorganisms).

Last time we saw Miko, people were saying she was terrible for smiling. Now Belkar gets praised because he might have a devious plan to strip a woman of her very livlihood? I don't get it. Are my ideals that much different from everyone else's?

a) As was already established, Belkar spared her for fun, not for honor. And we're not praising him (or at least I'm not). We're enjoying his egotistic ways.

b) Did you mean smiling or smiting? In any case, lighten up. This isn't real life. Miko isn't a real person, and neither is Belkar. It's a comic strip. It's supposed to be funny. And it's no one's fault that 95% of all humor is cruelty.

Having said that.... WANG!

[Flak_Razorwill]

The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.

I always figured that the villains did it in Bond movies partly out of the sadism of beating the best agent M16 had, and partly out of killing him. Belkar seems to just go for the sadistic angle without much need to kill her: she's a plaything to him now. As to how who dies, who knows?

I'd enjoy tormenting someone like this in a game, too. I just don't have the patience to pull it off in a D&D setting. It's kind of like camping with a railgun or repeatedly hitting someone with the tranq gun in Perfect Dark 1: they may eventually they'll get you, but it's fun as hell to see them bitch and moan about your incredibly cheap tactics while helpless. (On the other hand, I also like being chased by the Perfect Dark "Slayer" guided missile. I'm such a masochist. ;) )

He could have done a lot more than just take a potion from her when she was out. He could have drawn on her face, tied her laces together, or taken her money. But the chase goes on!

[somatic]

I'm absolutely baffled by the response to this comic. Belkar performs the first honorable act in his life, and people are praising him, just not for doing the right thing. Instead, its because they are just that much more certain he has a clever plan to make her Fall.

Exactly!

Er, wait... I'm not sure I understand :P

...where was I? Oh yeah. GO BELKAR!

[Mike_G]

Dude.

Belkar rocks.

He didn't coup de grace because that would be no fun. He yells "BORED!" when she won't fight any more.

This battle is cool. He's the guy who went ot fight the ogres because he loves the "thud" they make when they hit the ground.

Fighting Miko is a blast. He'll kill her if he can, but only if it's any fun. He in no way acted out of honor or mercy. He wants to keep playing.

It's like when a cat catches a mouse, then lets it go so it can catch it again. Once you break the mouse, where's the joy?

Go, little buddy!!

[Piedmon_Sama]

Observation: Belkar is a lot like Wolverine. He multiplies his badass factor by 1.5 when fighting on his own. The difference is that, unlike Logan, the Belkster demands an audience. =D

[ElfLad]

Belkar is in no way being merciful here. When it comes down to torture vs. painless killing, torture is more evil.

It would have been funny (in a juvenile, sophomoric way) to see Belkar draw a mustache on Miko before waking her up.

[Lianae]

You gotta love Belkar! ;D ;D ;D

[retnuhytnuob]

Still, she could have beaten him if she wasn't so idiotic as to simply stop talking and start drinking that potion/attacking.

I don't know why people keep saying this... The comic has already established that talking is a free action and takes no time. (except when it is particularly verbose, as in 186)

While here... Is/was Sojo a paladin? In 272, the lawyer states that "Azure City law clearly stipulates that telling anyone this secret is a criminal offense." Maybe I missed something... (like Sojo being an exception to that rule) but I believe he did tell the secret... or did he?

[theKOT]

She could't have taken that potion while walking? I'm unfamiliar with D&D rules....

[Annalia]

It would have been funny (in a juvenile, sophomoric way) to see Belkar draw a mustache on Miko before waking her up.

:o . I definitly have to agree on this. The simple idea makes me laugh out loud. Imagine the drawing!

[Quixote]

Wait, did Belkar just hit Miko with his enormous 'wang'?

???

Anyway, there's definitely a correlation between how evil someone is and how easily they get bored. I blame television for short attention spans, and I blame evil for television, so it's all kind of circular.

[PhoeKun]

She could't have taken that potion while walking? I'm unfamiliar with D&D rules....

She could have quaffed that potion at any time. Why she didn't is a mystery only the Giant can solve... or not, at his leisure.

[Devoured_Dude]

This is no time to be lying around, Miko! You've got a psycho halfling to chase, get the lead out!

[redmind0]

Belkar w/ commpasion/mercy
Miko w/ hate/rage

[theKOT]

Belkar w/ commpasion/mercy
Miko w/ hate/rage

That is completely accurate and shows that you have read the other posts in this thread. I bow to your skills of reasoning and comprehension.

She could have quaffed that potion at any time. Why she didn't is a mystery only the Giant can solve... or not, at his leisure.

Aha! Thanks. Actually, he has already answered it in his FAQ. Characters make stupid choices for humor/the plot's sake.

[Liquid]

Belkar FTW!!!

:)

Great Strip...maybe number 2 since Miko came. (Number 1 would be "If in doubt set it on fire").

[Vengeful_Hand]

I haven't laughed out loud (but merely chuckled) at this strip since the infamous flaming sake incident. Belkar has just won this duel in my mind. He is trashing Miko, healed himself, and is no worse than he began. She is STILL talking too much. He was right. Less talk, more standing up.

See? Belkar is a many-faceted personality. He not only enjoys ruthless killing, but he's also a sadist who hates to kill a worthy foe because it means no more tormenting fun. :)

[Bakta]

One trusty bonking throwing knife : 1gp*
One multi-purpose lead sheet : 3gp*
The way an uptight paladin looked lying on the ground wanged : PRICELESS





* prices subject ot change without notice

[Karkadinn]

I got a serious Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote vibe off of this one.
It was sadly predictable that Belkar would get the ultimate upper hand... as another poster said, even if Miko wins now, it'll be a tainted victory.
But it was worth it, I think, because it did a good job of rebalancing Belkar back towards being a fun, entertaining character, instead of just a cold-blooded psychopath.
This page also showcases the lack of Wisdom on the parts of BOTH characters, which is why they make perfect foils for each other. Miko is intelligent, but she lacks the empathy with others to visualize Belkar's thought process and see the lead sheet attack coming. (I personally think it was a crit.) Likewise her inability to understand who and what Belkar is prevented her from realizing that he had spared her life... it goes against her view of him, and so she has to rationalize it as not having happened. It's also possible that she feels overconfident in this matchup because she took Belkar out so easily in their previous fight.
I found it really interesting that Belkar didn't kill her. Obviously it was unwise, and thus in character, to spare her life (and especially to wake her up), but more importantly, it indicates that Belkar has a special grudge or other kind of feeling towards Miko. She's more than just a chunk of xp to him now, which isn't something that we can say about any of the other antagonists save her mount, which is pretty much an extension of her anyway. I don't think he really has an explicit plan for her, though, other than taking every opportunity possible to piss her off. Planning to make her fall from paladinhood is a bit more intricate thinking than I think Belkar makes use of on a regular basis. He doesn't seem to hate her enough to really want to try something that dastardly, either... he's just in it for cheap laughs.
Unless I'm forgetting some pages, the fight has gone like this... Belkar sets her aflame, Miko makes him fall into soup, Belkar knocks her out with lead sheet. Thus, Miko is arguably due for her turn of tactical superiority for the next page of the fight. Time will tell if I'm right or not.