OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread

[Faryn]

Belkar is my Hero

nough said! =P

Gogo Multipurpose Leadsheet ^^

[Rei_Jin]

I'm surprised something like this didn't happen sooner. Belkar's been in chains or locked up ever since the explosion at the inn. He HATES being restrained in any way, shape, or form. At the moment, he is free. He might be on the run from a crazed paladin, but he's on the run, and he's loving the challenge of it.

So let's do the Belkar checklist of things to do today.

1. Kill someone, and escape from prison: Check
2. Set Miko on fire: Check
3. Run around and annoy Miko: Check
4. Humiliate Miko: Check
5. Cause Miko to break the law: Check
6. Steal Miko's stuff: Check
7. Beat Miko with an audience: Not quite yet...

[Corolinth]

I read over Giant's rundown of the comic #251 fight and noticed something. Part of Miko's key to winning was Belkar failing his Will save against stunning fist due to having a crappy Will save modifier.

Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save, which Belkar has in abundance.

[Duskrider_Moogle]

I really don't get how the sheet knocked her out. Must be a house rule, getting hit with a lead wang knocks you out, and if you question it you have to make a saving throw vs. DUH.

[Midnight Son]

So just how big a Wang is it going to take to actually knock that stick out?

[Tetsusaiga]

hehehe, multipurpase lead sheet ^_^

[xrestassuredx]

Awesome comic! Belkar is evil, it's been established, but he's only evil because of his low wisdom. I don't think Belkar has any plans of killing Miko; he wants to see her humiliated and maybe lose her paladinhood, and to have fun while doing it.

... I'm not sure chasing Belkar around the roof until he made himself fall off the edge qualifies as "tactical superiority" ...

[Particle_Man]

This reminds me of that comic where the Joker spared an unconscious Batman because Batman fell unconscious due to someone else, and Joker wanted to beat Batman's intellect with his own madness.

[dragonfly83h]

Hooray for the lead sheet.

And go Belkar. Go!

Great comic, Giant. One of the best IMO.

[nick012000]

If I were in Belkar's shoes there (or lack thereof) I would have gone and either urinated or ejactulated onto Miko, simply to see her face when she wakes up. ::)

[Methuselah_Amakiir]

I wish my halfing thief could conceal a lead sheet like that, he'd be invincible. Or at least, un-evil-detectable.

[humanpylon]

OK, my first post, but I absolutely love this strip.

Not only does it show Belkar's obvious intelligence, perfect understanding of the gaming rules, and showcase his obvious chaotic nature, but it proves to me that he is definitely NOT evil.

Evil would have performed a coup de grace without a second thought.

Besides, the only "evil" he has truly shown is a absolute disdain for humans...and that is not evil.

Right because of course good characters NEVER coup de grace a fallen opponent. Belkar just wants to torment her some more.
And he's shown a lot more evil than disdain for humans:
1. killing enemies who had surrendered
2. suggested selling Samantha into slavery (which he admitted having contacts for)
3. suggested killing the dirt farmers

A lot of other actions could be open to debate, but those are pretty evil.

Crap! I promised myself i wouldn't get involved in the alignment debate again!

[Illsbane]

This was a great installment, but left me feeling a mite suspicious. Is it possible that Belkar's just found something he enjoys doing more than killing, i.e. tormenting and battling a foe he despises more than anyone else? If so, Miko has just entered Belkar's House of Pain ... for the rest of her life, if she gets added to the party, which I'm starting to suspect will happen.

[saraswati]

<trying to ignore above mental picture> ???

Loved this one! Don't know why people are speculating that Belkar is keeping Miko alive so that he can force her to do something to fall from Paladinhood in the future. My theory is that we just saw him do it in this strip.

Think about it, a paladin whose code of ethics includes hunting down those who remove the tags from mattresses? That's a code which requires you stick to the letter of the law. No excuses. ever. No matter what reasoning Miko can supply as to why she might feel justified in using detect evil in this fight, she clearly violated a court order that she knew was in place. No detect evil on Belkar. Period.

If Belkar has any wits he will : (spoiler protected) run immediately to the guards and report her. Sure, he gets taken back into custody. But he's just vengeful and evil enough to want it. Maybe he thinks he can escape again. If Belkar is supremely lucky, he will run her right into the trial room, where she can be judged by the BPLG. That will be evilly ironic!

Welll, that's one possibility. We will have to see what bizarre twist and turns the Giant throws at us. :D

I admit, I love Belkar as a character, and find myself pretty annoyed by Miko. But I really can't believe that Belkar spared Miko out of mercy, or guilt. No, he has a bad plan, even if that plan is just that he wants Miko to be concious to recognize her defeat.

I think he is due for some punishment for his evilness, but I hope he survives to entertain us in the future.

BTW. Loved him snarking her potion! LOL!

[Mordeus_Dire]

Belkar is evil. Accept it.

Still, his enjoyment of inflicting pain (physical and psychological) probably saved Miko's life, so she should be grateful for his chaotic evilness.

Hehe, "Stabby" the 8th dwarf, I love it!

It should be noted that these Miko vs Belkar strips seem to attract the biggest crowds from people posting.

[Valiena]

I do not think that letting Miko go is something Belkar would have done. He has shown his bloodthirstiness in the past, and fun or not, letting Miko live is not in his idiom. I was disappointed. It is rare, but disappointed with this strip I was.

[PhoeKun]

*snip*

*Ahem*

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin powers...

Note the emphasis. Paladin codes have some room for leeway, and one chaotic act (even if this was one) does not shift you out of Lawful Good.

No. Loss. Of. Paladin. Powers. Period.

... Sorry, I'm more than slightly frustrated at this point by the various fallacies regarding Paladins, and I don't remember the Miko FRC thread covering this new event.

EDIT: Darn thing posted before I typed anything. Go figure.

EDIT 2: Improper elipsis. I'm ashamed of myself

[warmachine]

If Miko can be knocked out with one hit, she must be down to her last few hit points as she hasn't taken subdual damage so far. Miko is on the brink of losing.

Unless, of course, the author is using artistic license again.

[kerberos]

it proves to me that he is definitely NOT evil.

Nonsense. Belkar is Evil, he's not showing mercy simply entertaining himself. Immediately rescind this vile slander or I will be forced to harvest your kidneys.

[Sebastian]

A minor nitpick: Cure Critical Wounds is a 4th level spell. In 3.5 potions can usually only be made of spells up to 3rd level*. So, usually, there's no such thing as a potion of Cure Critical Wounds.

I guess Belkar just failed a spellcraft check. ;D

*(There are exceptions like the Master Alchemist prestige class from Magic of Faerun.)

it was an old potion from the second edition, ( he say that Miko was saving it, didn't he?)

[Yehomer]

Be careful when you look into the abyss: the abyss doesn't look back.
Or something like that (forget how quote goes)

When one is fighting with monsters, one should look that he himself doesn't become a monster. When you gaze long in the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Loved the strip. Seeing Belkar humiliating Miko is much better than just seeing him cutting her throat.

Opposed to what people say, coup de gracing your enemies is not something a paladin should do. A paladin shouldn't kill her enemies when they're down, because then she would be no better then them. She should take them to trail, thus enforcing law and not performing an evil act (killing defenseless enemies when you have other choises is evil, or at the very least neutral)

[Kingrat]

I cannot believe this!

Belkar actually has some sort of plan!! I didn't think he would be one to think that far ahead!!!!

[iltharanos]

Opposed to what people say, coup de gracing your enemies is not something a paladin should do. A paladin shouldn't kill her enemies when they're down, because then she would be no better then them. She should take them to trail, thus enforcing law and not performing an evil act (killing defenseless enemies when you have other choises is evil, or at the very least neutral)

So if a paladin comes across a pillaging ogre that she reduces to unconsciousness she should take the ogre back to a court of law for trial?

What about evil outsiders invading through a portal from the Abyss?

Rampaging goblin hordes?

Does the paladin take all of these back to trial if she has the option to?

[Sebastian]

My theroy on why Belkar didn't off her (and I don't think it count as spoilers)

we have an anomaly here, Belkar is a chaotic evil ranger/barbarian played by a good(not alignement-wise but as in quality) player. he is trying to play his character as CE but without disrupt the game too much, we could even say that Belkar is played by a True Roleplayer (you can see it in other situation as his sub-par choice of classes/race, but that make are appropriate for his character to take, or when Miko joined the group when he tried to find a reason for why his halfling wanted to stay around a stuck up paladin) while Miko is played by a munchkin (playing to the letter rather than the spirit of the paladin, she don't care if she ruin the other players's game, well, unless she is a DMPC, that's it).
So that's why Belkar didn't killed Miko today. He knew (maybe metagaming) that this would have ruined the game, so he found a reason for his character to not kill her.

[Aeek]

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow..."

ROFLMAO

as cover for the muttered "See, this is more like it now."
Most people would say them the other way round.

[AtomicKitKat]

Heh. I would have rearranged her armour. Maybe put it back on her upside down, and then when she wakes up, she'll be thinking "Oh crap, what did that sick little freak do to me?!" ::)

[Piedmon_Sama]

My pet theory is that Miko's the DM's girlfriend who he JUST introduced to D&D. Originally she was only going to play his BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy) NPC, just to cut her teeth on the game, but she begins to take a liking to the character, bats her eyes just so and SHAZAM Miko is now a PC and subject to all rights & privelages thereof. Huzzah for useless theories AND run-on sentences!

[Kish]

When it comes to theories on the Order's (+Miko's) hypothetical players, I liked Lily's version best.

[Reaver225]

Couldn't the WANG have stunning damage? Instead of subdual?

On further testing, being hit on the head sounds more like 'WHANG' rather than 'WANG'
(actually 'WHANGingringringringring')

My personal feeling is that the most evil thing for Belkar to do is to NOT kill Miko, but escape back to the courtroom where he is ordered to rejoin the rest of the OOTS to fix the RIFTSworld campaign... Leaving Miko to fume in rage...

[Yehomer]

So if a paladin comes across a pillaging ogre that she reduces to unconsciousness she should take the ogre back to a court of law for trial?

What about evil outsiders invading through a portal from the Abyss?

Rampaging goblin hordes?

Does the paladin take all of these back to trial if she has the option to?

All you did was show a bunch of cases where a paladin is most likely unable to take them back to trail. Theoretically, if he had an option to take the above to trial and imprisonment without risking himself or anyone else, then yes, he should have done that. The fact that it is nearly impossible to do that does make it legitimite to kill them. However, in this case, if Miko had Belkar unconcious, and in a castle full of guards, she doesn't have any problem doing that.

A paladin's priority is innocent life, then her life and then the criminal's life. She shouldn't go out of her way not to kill the criminal, but if she has a choise with little to no risk to herself than it would be non good to kill him.