OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread

[Lady_Orc]

I love Belkar. *huggles halfling* And big YAY for the multipurpose lead sheet! ;D

[sniffles]

Oh, dear, I see a sudden spate of discussion on various D&D boards about the amount of damage a sheet of lead can do... :D

What a great comic! ;D

[DukeP]

Priceless. Simply.

The Giant is back. ;)

~~DukeP~~

[theKOT]

Y'know, on reflection, that concussion must have lasted rather longer than 2-3 rounds. You may be right.

On further further reflection, I have duly upgraded my hilarity estimate to 8.6.

What do you mean by that? That the Giant is letting Belkar win for comedic purposes or what?

That being said, I'm thinking that this fight now won't be resolved b a defeat/killing, but will be interupted somehow. Stupid anticlimax... grumblecakes,

[Alfryd]

What do you mean by that? That the Giant is letting Belkar win for comedic purposes or what?

Broadly speaking, yes. Frames 7-10 seem to be snapshots of activity at different time intervals, while Belkar is just standing there.

[RBloom0566]

All this talk about finishing Miko off while she was down from the lead sheet...not entirely accurate, I believe.

If I'm not mistaken, the most Belkar could've accomplished would've been a round or more of some wicked sneak attack damage for Miko being stunned and deprived of her Dex Bonus to AC.

A Coup de Grace' could not have been executed as "stunned" does not count as completely defenseless for purposes of finishing off a foe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will try.

GIANT -
In a word...EXCELLENT!

[theKOT]

All this talk about finishing Miko off while she was down from the lead sheet...not entirely accurate, I believe.

If I'm not mistaken, the most Belkar could've accomplished would've been a round or more of some wicked sneak attack damage for Miko being stunned and deprived of her Dex Bonus to AC.

A Coup de Grace' could not have been executed as "stunned" does not count as completely defenseless for purposes of finishing off a foe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will try.

It has been argued that she was unconcious, not simply stunned.

Broadly speaking, yes. Frames 7-10 seem to be snapshots of activity at different time intervals, while Belkar is just standing there.

Yeah, I thought that might be it. Oh well, I guess anticlimax is what the Giant had planned all along. By that I mean that now neither can be killed nor defeated but will be interupted somehow....

[Supagoof]

Simply perfect.

WANG! - had to add my two cents to the amount of WANG being displayed upon the YaBB.

Belkar has his multiple reasons, thought I suspect the giant could go many ways with this.

Spoiler

Show

If the breaking the "detect evil" law holds true, then Miko will lose her Paladin status, and probably have to do something grand to regain such a status, such as help the OoTS protect the other gates (which may come as a results of the trial.)

If Belkar runs into the courtroom, he'l likelyl be taken prisoner again, but it will be like a criminal going to jail rather than getting shot - a way of avoiding the penalty of death.

If the statement "one must commit many evil acts in a row without any good in order to be aligned as evil" holds true, then why not for the same for good. "One must commit many good acts in a row without any evil in order to be aligned as good." If Miko does one thing that is "questionably" wrong, everyone roots for "NO PALADIN STATUS", which given that this is the Giant's playground, is not something any of us can influence. We can nitpick all we want, but the definition of Good and Evil in this playground is entirely up to the Giant. Don't get me wrong, I love what Belkar is up too, but I'm not ready to jump on the Paladin must die, or even be tortured relentlessly, wagon yet.

Wang, steal, stabby, awaken - repeat cycle as needed.

WANG! ;D

[garylian]

My pet theory is that Miko's the DM's girlfriend who he JUST introduced to D&D. Originally she was only going to play his BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy) NPC, just to cut her teeth on the game, but she begins to take a liking to the character, bats her eyes just so and SHAZAM Miko is now a PC and subject to all rights & privelages thereof. Huzzah for useless theories AND run-on sentences!

OMG, I played with that chick. Flashbacks, and not to 'Nam!

[Freeman333]

Now THAT'S a great strip! And so totally in character with Belkar. It makes you wonder, does the cat get dissapointed when the mouse it's playing with stops moving?

Ever seen a cat play with a dead mouse? It sits and waits, waiting for the mouse to do something, and when nothing happens, it bats the dead body up into the air, swats it down again, knocks it across the floor and chases it down. Cats--like Belkar--are geniuses when it comes to manufacturing their own entertainment.

That said, I don't see Belkar as having much of a plan in this situation--at least not any "plan" that extends beyond the next few minutes. Belkar is oriented totally around doing what is most pleasing at the immediate moment, regardless of long-term consequences. Causing Miko to lose her class abilities would be a laff and a haff, sure, but in Belkar's mind the only laughs that matter are those coming in the immediate future, and why waste time and energy planning farther ahead than that when the immediate future is going to be so much fun? He just wants to extend the challenge as long as he can, further establishing his superiority in the most meaningful way. After all, as we've seen, Belkar's only drive besides visceral pleasures is to prove himself however he can. To do that effectively, you need A) an audience, and B) a meaningful challenge. Otherwise, how will anyone ever know how awesome you are?

And, on a completely different point, has the Giant secured the rights to the "Wang" property from the Penny Arcade people? I smell a lawsuit...

[Jefepato]

While here... Is/was Sojo a paladin? In 272, the lawyer states that "Azure City law clearly stipulates that telling anyone this secret is a criminal offense." Maybe I missed something... (like Sojo being an exception to that rule) but I believe he did tell the secret... or did he?

Shojo is the ruler of Azure City, in both a secular and religious context. Logically, the distribution of that secret is up to his personal discretion.

More to the point, he's presiding over the trial, and was forced to conclude that the defendants' right to know the charges against them overrode the necessity of keeping the secret...secret.

Presumably he is a paladin, but that wasn't an evil or even a chaotic act. It was exactly the correct thing to do.

[garylian]

I agree that Belkar doesn't have a set plan for exactly how he is taking down Miko. He's making it up as he goes along.

What he does have is a end goal, however. He wants Miko to suffer, and nothing can make a paladin player suffer more than losing their paladinhood. Especially when they have roleplayed the paladin to the penultimate "stick in the mud" level that Miko has been portrayed as. It is the most crushing thing that could happen to Miko, thus, the thing that Belkar would enjoy the most.

In the end, I think the railroad will get Belkar. The GM has taken great liberties (as they often have to) to get the OotS to Azure City. The storyline seems to be evolving into one where they quest to do something about these gates that hold back the snarl. And, I am sure that Miko will be sent along with them to make sure they follow through with whatever quest they are given by Lord Shojo.

The growth potential for Miko's character is immense, especially if she is forced by her lord to work with the party, and Roy is given authority over her.

If that happens, Belkar will continue to *want* to kill her for XP, but he will only say it as a matter of form, much like he does with Elan.

[Psiwave]

Just one point to those who say that Miko must be a vastly superior combatant to the OOTS, remember Roy's comment "Damn railroad plot!"
Miko could be a drunken care-bear with two levels in self humiliation and armed with only a cheese-grater of healing +3 and still kicked ass (esp off-screen) the DM (or narritive causality) knew that they must lose, so that was it for them. sad but true (and who can say we havn't all been there before).
my point is Miko and Belkar are probably evenly matched. and possably in love ::)
but then it is valentines day...

[theKOT]

Just one point to those who say that Miko must be a vastly superior combatant to the OOTS, remember Roy's comment "Damn railroad plot!"
Miko could be a drunken care-bear with two levels in self humiliation and armed with only a cheese-grater of healing +3 and still kicked ass (esp off-screen) the DM (or narritive causality) knew that they must lose, so that was it for them. sad but true (and who can say we havn't all been there before).
my point is Miko and Belkar are probably evenly matched. and possably in love ::)
but then it is valentines day...

Have you seen the second fight's rundown? Even without windstriker, Miko is fearsome.... But disadvantaged right now. I really, really hope that there is no romance there. It burns us!

I agree that Belkar doesn't have a set plan for exactly how he is taking down Miko. He's making it up as he goes along.

What he does have is a end goal, however. He wants Miko to suffer, and nothing can make a paladin player suffer more than losing their paladinhood. Especially when they have roleplayed the paladin to the penultimate "stick in the mud" level that Miko has been portrayed as. It is the most crushing thing that could happen to Miko, thus, the thing that Belkar would enjoy the most.

In the end, I think the railroad will get Belkar. The GM has taken great liberties (as they often have to) to get the OotS to Azure City. The storyline seems to be evolving into one where they quest to do something about these gates that hold back the snarl. And, I am sure that Miko will be sent along with them to make sure they follow through with whatever quest they are given by Lord Shojo.

The growth potential for Miko's character is immense, especially if she is forced by her lord to work with the party, and Roy is given authority over her.

If that happens, Belkar will continue to *want* to kill her for XP, but he will only say it as a matter of form, much like he does with Elan.

Ok, First off, I love the Avatar. Secondly, yes, that would be a good storyline, and could be integrated with the "Miko must die" thread's theory. Also, it allows for some climax to the fight with no one being defeated/killed. I guess I just forgot about that, heh.

[Melnor]

Haha, YES!
Everybody loves OoTS's resident bastard...the eighth dwarf Stabby!!! ;D

[Alfryd]

Just one point to those who say that Miko must be a vastly superior combatant to the OOTS, remember Roy's comment "Damn railroad plot!"

Come now. Even with the errata on Rich's part during the second fight description, a few tweaks here and there (paricularly WRT Durkon) and some fudged rolls would keep the outcome at least plausible. She's not vastly superior in terms of raw stats, she's just magnificent. Now, something like this twinking is happening in Belkar's favour. Fair's fair.
I'm still slightly worried that, left to themselves, one or both could end up dead, but as things are turning out, all bets are off.

[theKOT]

Come now. Even with the errata on Rich's part during the second fight description, a few tweaks here and there (paricularly WRT Durkon) and some fudged rolls would keep the outcome at least plausible. She's not vastly superior in terms of raw stats, she's just magnificent. Now, something like this twinking is happening in Belkar's favour. Fair's fair.
I'm still slightly worried that, left to themselves, one or both could end up dead, but as things are turning out, all bets are off.

As I've said before, I think that if Belkar was going to kill Miko, he would have done it in this strip. Miko may kill Belkar, but if so it would be in a way that would make her fall. I don't think either is going to happen, really.

[Karellen]

Come now. Even with the errata on Rich's part during the second fight description, a few tweaks here and there (paricularly WRT Durkon) and some fudged rolls would keep the outcome at least plausible. She's not vastly superior in terms of raw stats, she's just magnificent. Now, something like this twinking is happening in Belkar's favour. Fair's fair.
I'm still slightly worried that, left to themselves, one or both could end up dead, but as things are turning out, all bets are off.

It's not so much that Miko was magnificent as the fact that OotS is a distinctly unoptimized party for their level whose ability to fight together, in that fight at least, was close to zero. Together with the way the DM apparently fudged throws (Miko pretty much always hits with every single attack while TWFing? Very likely) and reinterpreted some rules to her advantage, it was pretty easy for Miko to capitalize on their weaknesses and beat on them.

[Arachnophile]

First off, Great comic!

Anyway... If Miko was knocked out would Belkar get experience for "defeating" her? If so and he knocked her out again would he get the experience again? I smell extra levels! ;D

Point of reference: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=124

[Amalthea]

I'd just like to make a couple of notes:

1. I would require a fortitude save for the victim of a successful called shot to the head, with DC's to beat against being stunned or knocked completely unconscious. Blows to the head do this sort of damage, it is not unreasonable.

2. It IS unreasonable to expect someone recovering from being knocked unconscious to know how long they were out, or that they were out for more than the briefest period of time.
For Miko, working with what information about Belkar that she has, it is reasonable for her to believe herself to have only been momentarily stunned/unconscious, because she's still alive. Belkar hasn't given her the slightest bit of reason to believe he would be altrusistic if she was at his mercy, and her line of reasoning is that if she is still alive after being knocked out, then he must not have had the opportunity to finish her.

3. I can conclusively say that lead does not go "WANG" even if struck with with a variety of different metals. It's too dense, and makes a variety of dull sounding clicks. (I tested this, much to the amusement of a student, on one of the lead bricks here at work.) It cannot be Miko's head making the sound, because she is similarly dense.
However "WANG" is funnier, so I'm willing to allow for artistic liscense. ;D

[theKOT]

3. I can conclusively say that lead does not go "WANG" even if struck with with a variety of different metals. It's too dense, and makes a variety of dull sounding clicks. (I tested this, much to the amusement of a student, on one of the lead bricks here at work.) It cannot be Miko's head making the sound, because she is similarly dense.
However "WANG" is funnier, so I'm willing to allow for artistic liscense. ;D

Even if it was somewhat thin? A brick certainly is thicker than a metal sheet...

To everybody out there saying, "Dude, don't worry about it, just sit back and enjoy the comic", debating trivialities is a big part of how I enjoy the comic

[BlueWizard]

Maybe I came in late on this one, but...
I'm convinced Belkar is not evil. Though THE GIANT may never tell us... at most Belkar is Lawful Evil. CE or NE would've slain Miko while she sleeps.
As to the lead sheet, anyone have stats for this weapon?
d6 + stun chance DC 14? Weighs 30 lbs.

I'm sure I'm late on this discussion...

the
Blue Wizard

[Sylvius]

He thinks fighting and tormenting Miko is FUN. There's nothing in his behaviour that tells us he's not CE.

And anyway, he's CE. The Giant has said so on numerous occasions.

Am I the only person who actually reads the whole thread?

[Amalthea]

Even if it was somewhat thin? A brick certainly is thicker than a metal sheet...

Yep. Lead has more of the consistency of stone than what we think of when we think of metal. There's no resonance to it at all, as opposed to say, a solid hunk of brass.

I am impressed that Belkar can carry a lead sheet though, our bricks are about 4"x3"x9" and they are HEAVY. I can carry two of them at once (one in each hand), but only with extreme caution, because you do NOT want to drop one of those.

[Steward]

Maybe I came in late on this one, but...
I'm convinced Belkar is not evil. Though THE GIANT may never tell us... at most Belkar is Lawful Evil. CE or NE would've slain Miko while she sleeps.
As to the lead sheet, anyone have stats for this weapon?
d6 + stun chance DC 14? Weighs 30 lbs.

I'm sure I'm late on this discussion...

the
Blue Wizard

The Giant already told us that he was Chaotic Evil. The only reason he didn't kill Miko now is because that would be boring.

[Todd]

Back in 270 Miko tells Belkar that the temple is filled with clerics. What are the odds that at least one of them has Raise Dead or some such? Pretty good IMO.

Belkar will not get much out of killing her ... she would just come back madder than ever. However if he makes her fall ... well then that's something much worse.

Belkar is CE and his plan from the start has been to get Miko to fall. He may have an idea or two to that effect but mostly right now he is ad-libbing to make her mad for the setup.

I'm not a big fan of evil characters but Belkar is funny and Miko seems to be the "lawful stupid" stereotype that I detest in Paladins. I'm waiting with baited breath to see how this ends.

[Frozen_Northman]

With various people wondering why an evil person wouldn't just slit Miko's throat, the following quote from Terry Pratchett's Men At Arms would seem to be in order:

"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm, they'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell you captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

[Ignatius_the_Monk]

OK - part of me says "No Coup de Grace? BOOOOO!!!"

But then the other part of me says "Buwahahaha! Chaotic!"

Nuff said.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I guess the pro-Miko league has to be happy that she's still with us at all. However, I'm waiting for the dedicated "OMG lvl 12 char beats lvl 16 char Rich is fudging!!!" thread. There always was one when Miko was the one coming out on top.

Having Miko as a semi-permanent addition to the party would be awesome, with plenty of spiteful repartee potential between her and Belkar. I remember when the possibility came up a while back, someone suggested a Geas be cast on Miko to make her get along better with the party. Makes sense, doesn't it - you're Good, you have a Good and an Evil character and need to have them working together... brainwash the Good one!

[iltharanos]

All you did was show a bunch of cases where a paladin is most likely unable to take them back to trail.

No I didn't. I specifically posited the paladin being able to bring all the creatures back to trial.

Even if I had not, a paladin that just knocked a single ogre into unconsciousness should be more than able to bring that single ogre back to trial.

Theoretically, if he had an option to take the above to trial and imprisonment without risking himself or anyone else, then yes, he should have done that.

You mean the way Miko killed the bandit sorceress and her dad and didn't bring them back to trial?

The fact that it is nearly impossible to do that does make it legitimite to kill them.

I see, a paladin's priority is innocent life ... so long as it's convenient.

However, in this case, if Miko had Belkar unconcious, and in a castle full of guards, she doesn't have any problem doing that.

The only reason Miko would even spare the life of the evil Belkar is because she was specifically told by her Lord Shojo to bring them (the OotS) all back to be tried. She's not doing it out of any sort of paladin code or rulebook of behavior.

A paladin's priority is innocent life, then her life and then the criminal's life. She shouldn't go out of her way not to kill the criminal, but if she has a choise with little to no risk to herself than it would be non good to kill him.

You forgot something. A paladin's priority is to smite/smash/kill evil mercilessly and protect innocent life.

From the PH:

Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil [glow=red,2,300]without mercy[/glow] and protects the innocent without hesitation ...

Again, given a choice any paladin would kill the evil before bringing it back to trial. Miko and Belkar are a special case, since Miko is following a direct command of her Lord Shojo. Otherwise Miko would just have killed Belkar at the earliest opportunity.

The way you describe paladins seems colored by reality, as in, that is how a paladin would operate in real life. This is a fantasy comic based on a fantasy game operating under fantasy rules. Paladins don't subdue evil creatures for trial, they kill them (Miko & Belkar being an exception).