OOTS #281 - The Discussion Thread

[WNxArrakis]

level 12s can easily beat level 16s - if they know what they're doing. For example, a ranged person behind a porous barrier can easily do it - its all in the int score.

Arrakis

[Marller]

I guess the pro-Miko league has to be happy that she's still with us at all. However, I'm waiting for the dedicated "OMG lvl 12 char beats lvl 16 char Rich is fudging!!!" thread. There always was one when Miko was the one coming out on top.

I doubt it but you can always open one yourself ;)

Concerning lead, it's just too soft to be a good resonator. And it is poisonous anyway (hey, maybe that's where Belkar's low WIS is coming from). Iron or bronze are better suited for that task.
Of course, the "lead" sheet could always only be coated with lead (very thinly or it would act as dampener).

[humanpylon]

Maybe I came in late on this one, but...
I'm convinced Belkar is not evil. Though THE GIANT may never tell us... at most Belkar is Lawful Evil. CE or NE would've slain Miko while she sleeps.

the
Blue Wizard

Even disregarding what the Giant has said, Belkar himself said he's Chaotic http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=230

Also for anyone who has said that Miko should lose Paladin status for using Detect Evil: A paladin loses status for committing an evil act. While using Detect Evil is possibly chaotic given the restraining order, I would argue it is not evil.

A Paladin must adhere to a lawful code but it does not say that a paladin will lose status for a single chaotic act.

I will say that Miko may need to visit a cleric for an atonement or something.

If it was my campaign I MIGHT give a penalty saying the chaotic act means the paladin gains no experience until atonement.

[PhantomFox]

Belkar's got something planned. He's leading her on for a reason, otherwise he'd have escaped by now. I'm curious to see what he's up to...

What's another word for synonym?

Polyonym.

[Starbuck_II]

Even disregarding what the Giant has said, Belkar himself said he's Chaotic http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=230

Also for anyone who has said that Miko should lose Paladin status for using Detect Evil: A paladin loses status for committing an evil act. While using Detect Evil is possibly chaotic given the restraining order, I would argue it is not evil.

A Paladin must adhere to a lawful code but it does not say that a paladin will lose status for a single chaotic act.

I will say that Miko may need to visit a cleric for an atonement or something.

If it was my campaign I MIGHT give a penalty saying the chaotic act means the paladin gains no experience until atonement.

No, but a Paladin who lies breaks their oath. The Oath says you can't lie.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

1. Act with honor: she swore no healing from outside sources,. but broke honor by detecting evil.
2. She cheated therefore by detecting evil.../lying

Now, these are grevious charges. If she broke code: she stays LG, but loses powers. That is what it says.

Unless, she atones, but she would have to mean it.

[fwiffo]

You guys are arguing over nothing. When Belkar wanged her on the head, she fell down, right? Well, at that point the discussion about whether Miko is going to be a fallen paladin or not became moot.

[Denaes]

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

1. Act with honor: she swore no healing from outside sources,. but broke honor by detecting evil.
2. She cheated therefore by detecting evil.../lying

Now, these are grevious charges. If she broke code: she stays LG, but loses powers. That is what it says.

Unless, she atones, but she would have to mean it.

What are you talking about? The Quote you provided very explicity states that a Paladin looses all of their class abilities if they ever perform an evil act. It says nothing about not following their Code of Conduct.

The text would say:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act or violates their Code of Conduct.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

The Code of Conduct is in place to help guide as a moral compass to prevent the Paladin from performing evil/chaotic acts by accident. Evil is pretty cut & dry, but you can slide out of Lawful fairly easily if you care more about people and justice... and being good. It's easy to slip into NG or CG and it often makes perfect sense.

Now obviously if you continiously break your Code of Conduct, you're commiting chaotic acts (doubily so because you're breaking your oath) and are not going to remain lawful and will loose your abilities. That doesn't mean that you have to stick to it 100% of the time.

I'm not sure why people try to hold Paladins up on some sort of Pedistal like they have such greater abilities than clerics or fighters or monks that it requires people to play in a straight jacket with one toe over the line and you loose your abilities.

There is a great deal of leeway and a GM call at some point if the player is leaning out of a Lawful alignment.

[Swashbuckler]

You guys are arguing over nothing. When Belkar wanged her on the head, she fell down, right? Well, at that point the discussion about whether Miko is going to be a fallen paladin or not became moot.

... totally agree. Who cares if Miko loses her paladin status? (oops, that's right ... silly Miko fans) We all have just today seen that Belkar pwned Miko - the only reason he didn't off her was that it wouldn't be any fun if she was helpless. He's got more honor than she ever will. :D

And as for those people still wonking about the "WANG!" sound ... have you ever been hit by a solid sheet of lead? No? Then how do you know what sound it would make? Who can say?

The Giant uses artistic and creative license so that we can enjoy his comic - leave it to some people to scrutinize it to death. ::)

Thank you, Rich, for the best darn comic out there. Keep 'em coming!

[BurntOfferings]

You know, it's funny. Originally, it was Roy who wanted to wang Miko. But in the end, it was Belkar that wanged her, and wanged her good. Who woulda thunk it? :o

[Amalthea]

1. Act with honor: she swore no healing from outside sources,. but broke honor by detecting evil.
2. She cheated therefore by detecting evil.../lying

Now, these are grevious charges. If she broke code: she stays LG, but loses powers. That is what it says.

Unless, she atones, but she would have to mean it.

This train of thought makes no sense. It's completely illogical, like the Abbut/Kosh exchange from the first season of B5: "A herring is just a herring, but a good cigar is a Cuban" "The the willow must scuttle carefully" "Does Saturn have rings?"
Gahh!

[PhoeKun]

You guys are arguing over nothing. When Belkar wanged her on the head, she fell down, right? Well, at that point the discussion about whether Miko is going to be a fallen paladin or not became moot.

There's nothing better (or rarer) than a well made pun.

Bravo!

[Starbuck_II]

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

She broke this code. The first sentence is unimportant about no evil. only the code itself is important because she broke it.

act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),

You know, it's funny. Originally, it was Roy who wanted to wang Miko. But in the end, it was Belkar that wanged her, and wanged her good. Who woulda thunk it?

Good one Simon.

[theKOT]

She broke this code. The first sentence is unimportant about no evil. only the code itself is important because she broke it.

How do you know that the Cease & Desist has jurisdiction in the southern lands? Also, he was a fugitive who had murdered a guard and was on the run, that might have negated it.

[Denaes]

She broke this code. The first sentence is unimportant about no evil. only the code itself is important because she broke it.

act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
Good one Simon.

And where does it say that breaking the Code of Conduct a single time causes a Paladin to loose their powers?

It says they must be LG to use their powers and it says that they loose their powers for an evil act. The text you quoted does not state that they loose their powers for a chaotic act or breaking their Code of Conduct.

[Sylian]

When did Miko promise that she wouldn't detect evil?

[kit]

But breaking the code does not cause a paladin to loose paladin status, only an evil act, or loosing LG alignment. Therefore, one evil (not neutral) action can cause her to fall, or a series of substantialy chaotic acts. Paladins are allowed a few chaotic and neutral acts here and there.

[Marller]

... totally agree. Who cares if Miko loses her paladin status? (oops, that's right ... silly Miko fans) We all have just today seen that Belkar pwned Miko - the only reason he didn't off her was that it wouldn't be any fun if she was helpless. He's got more honor than she ever will:D

Strangely it were not the miko fans who started all those threads that Miko should fall, trip, turn undead (pun intended). So i'm not sure what you are complaining about. That people reply, maybe?

And as for those people still wonking about the "WANG!" sound ... have you ever been hit by a solid sheet of lead? No? Then how do you know what sound it would make? Who can say?

Lead is still used in our age, believe it or not. If you ever get your hands on a lead sheet, just drop it to a solid ground (concrete for example) and listen to the dull "thud". It doesn't transport sound very good.

[evileeyore]

But breaking the code does not cause a paladin to loose paladin status, only an evil act, or loosing LG alignment. Therefore, one evil (not neutral) action can cause her to fall, or a series of substantialy chaotic acts. Paladins are allowed a few chaotic and neutral acts here and there.

Ahem.

SRD (D&D RUles)
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

For the last time. Violating the Code will cause a fal. However as I have underlined and italicized it must be a gross violation.

Ignoring one Cease and Desist order which hasn't even gone to trail is not, I repeat not, a gross violation.

Thank you, good night.

[Sonofapreacherman]

Holy cazoodles. There's already 16 pages of replies for this strip? Okay, fair enough, OotS is popular, I get it. Still, I'm not going to read 16 pages of replies to see whether of not my comments are redundant. Instead, I will merely heap my comments into the "presumed" replies already made about the strip...

...specifically that OotS punch-lines would be a lot funnier if the characters used correct grammar!

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Not...

"I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Ah-hem. Thank you.

Editorial P.S. By the way, saying "Oh man, it was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..." sounds less awkward than "Oh man, that was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..."

Okay, now I'm done.

[FreeloadingSausage]

You couldn't be more wrong. Alignment in D&D is and always has been about personal philosophy. The fact that most players have lost sight of this is the source of most misconceptions about alignment.

The only time actions come into play is when a particularly heavy-handed DM doesn't realize that people are not perfectly consistent in regards to alignment and decides that a perceived punishment is easier than attempting to understand.

I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken here. I quote the book: (D&D PHB pg. 103)

"Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos."

You could possibly get away with this "My personal philosophy is what REALLY defines my alignment." thingie in a world without specific deities devoted to specific alignments. In the world of D&D, you have none of this wishy washy grey area stuff. You have a god of evil, slaughter, murder, pain, burning death and acid--and a god of good, mittens and kittens.

I also quote the book (D&D PHB pg. 103) as saying (for those of you "making Miko fall-ers out there"):

"Alignment is a tool for developing your characters identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types...a good character can lose his temper, a neutral character can be inspired to perform a noble act, and so on."

Looking back, I realize I should not have said that alignment is based off of actions. I should have said that it is based MORE off of actions than personal philosophy.

A goodnatured cannibal would be evil because he (presumably) kills and eats people. Kobolds are usually lawful evil, not because they wake up in the morning and think "How can I make someone's life miserable today, while also maintaining the societal structure we, as a people group, adhere to?" The kobolds tend to be LE because they act in that way. If a kobold ACTS in a specifically different way, he is not evil.

Saying that a GM is heavy-handed if he relies on judging people's actions sounds to me like a guilty man trying to excuse his behavior by saying that the ends justify the means. If an absolutely devout man kills another man in cold blood because he believes that this act will somehow save that man (inquisitorial style) or even if he tortures that man to purify his soul or what not, that does not erase the fact that murder and torture are EVIL acts.

Miko might be trying to stop Belkar in a violent way, she may even relish the chase. She may even actually hate the little halfling, but that does not change the fact that she is committing a cosmically Lawful act by pursuing a criminal, and committing a cosmically Good act by trying to protect the populace of Azure City from a known murderer.

You can argue all you like, but the fact is, in a world of D&D, where alignments are spelled out, and Good and Evil are definitive ideals, there is little wiggle room for "personal philosophy."

The Giant pokes fun at this in comic #267 where the being of pure law and good makes his rant about ultimate justice. There are no questions as to intent on the part of the OotS, only there actions. Which is why Celia must defend them utilizing the fact that they kept an evil lich from using the gate.

If you want a game where personal philosophies rule alignment and not actions, then play another game where your BAMF vampire can murder and suck the blood of humans, but be truly good at heart or something. But a game based around the idea of killing monsters and taking their stuff--and where entire species of monsters are classified together by a single alignment--is hardly grounds for philosophical debate.

In the world of D&D if you spend your life saving peasants, and vaporizing gobbos, you'll go hang with Pelor when you die. If you kill peasants and help gobbos take over the world, you'll be toasting with a baatezu when you kick it. That's just how it works, regardless of whether those silly gobbos truly needed that land or whatnot.

[unlit.candle]

Lets use the greatest fact of all: Who plays Paladins?
Nobody.

They lack any real power, need more feats to be any good for the most part. - Nobody seems to understand how the code works. For basic game concepts they are too hard and complicated.

They will never leave the D&D series, but we can do our best to forget them.

Go Belkar -

[WeaponMasterLDO]

Great comic giant, it really shows Belkar's sensitive side.

[humanpylon]

Question about good natured cannibals: If cannibalism is an accepted part of society, and a cannibal eats someone who has died from some non-evil means (war, falling out of a tree etc) is cannibalism still evil? After all, a guy's gotta eat!

[jackal59]

Belkar is, in a description I once heard for Kevin Kline's character in "A Fish Called Wanda," an id with feet. Hairy feet in this case (though Kevin Kline's not that far off....)

[humanpylon]

Belkar's got something planned. He's leading her on for a reason, otherwise he'd have escaped by now. I'm curious to see what he's up to...


Polyonym.

*tips hat to Phantom Fox* I didn't actually think someone would come up with an answer. Actually I didn't even know there was an answer, I was just being a cheeky smartass. Very nice!

Back to the comic, if I remember correctly a lead blocking sheet doesn't have to be very thick. Given that Belkar's sheet is probaby 2-3 feet tall, anyone happen to know how much it would weigh?

[Fhaolan]

and a god of good, mittens and kittens.

Not that I want to get into the alignment discussion, but this bit had to be quoted. God of mittens. My player shall curse you for giving me ideas.

[Dark_Stalion]

Holy cazoodles. There's already 16 pages of replies for this strip? Okay, fair enough, OotS is popular, I get it. Still, I'm not going to read 16 pages of replies to see whether of not my comments are redundant. Instead, I will merely heap my comments into the "presumed" replies already made about the strip...

...specifically that OotS punch-lines would be a lot funnier if the characters used correct grammar!

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Not...

"I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Ah-hem. Thank you.

Editorial P.S. By the way, saying "Oh man, it was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..." sounds less awkward than "Oh man, that was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..."

Okay, now I'm done.

Personally I read it as looking even when it said look, but that may be a result of me being dyslexic. It is a bit like where a sign says...

Don't cross the
the road! Deer!

Or something similar. A lot of people will not notice hte repetition as it is insignificant and the mind sort of eddits it out.

[Sylvius]

Question about good natured cannibals: If cannibalism is an accepted part of society, and a cannibal eats someone who has died from some non-evil means (war, falling out of a tree etc) is cannibalism still evil? After all, a guy's gotta eat!

I would say no. In fact, I would argue that the cannibalism itself is never evil - it's the killing of the meal that matters.

This was the crux of my argument regarding Belkar's blood mural. Once the guy is dead, what more camage can you do to him? The same applies to cannibalism.

[CatPeeler]

Forgive me if someone has already tossed this out there...but given that Belkar is deliberately provoking Miko as much as humanly (halflingly?) possible, I'm wondering whether his ultimate aim is to get her to lose her Paladin status. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he make some comment to the effect that association with him might do this? Obviously, he could have killed her quite easily....but he seems much more interested in having her fail than having her die...

[Grey Watcher]

...specifically that OotS punch-lines would be a lot funnier if the characters used correct grammar!

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Not...

"I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Ah-hem. Thank you.

One word: tpyo!

Seriously, he probably did what I do all the time. He was simultaneously thinking of wording it "I look forward..." and "I'm looking forward..." and the result was a weird amalgam of the two. After all, the Giant doesn't have time to proofread because people are always screaming about how late it is....

Editorial P.S. By the way, saying "Oh man, it was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..." sounds less awkward than "Oh man, that was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..."

They sound the same to me. And besides, "that" is appropriate here, since he's referring to a specifing thing that just happened. Besides, the wording as is just feels more Belkar to me... :P Hooray, subjectivity!

Anyway, it's hardly the first typo that's appeared in the Comic, and, it will, I imagine mysteriously vanish at some point or other. Or, be completely forgotten about.