Erfworld 84: Parson's Klog Page 7

[Arkenputtyknife]

If the swordhilt was a lightsaber, Parson would probably have recognized it. We'll just have to wait and see what Bogroll's going to turn it into.

No, not necessarily. The Tenchiken from Tenchi Muyo was a lightsaber in all but name, but it looked nothing like the original. That goes double for Ryoko's sword from the same show, which was effectively a lightsaber without a hilt.

On the other hand, the Tenchiken did something that I've never seen a lightsaber do (caveat: I haven't seen the Star Wars prequel trilogy): it took over the fight, and battled Ryoko for Tenchi, effectively dragging him along behind: “This sword has a mind of its own, and if it were up to me, I wouldn't even fight a monster like you!”

This gives me pause for thought. Each of the Stupid Toys so far has granted Parson a small but significant power that he needed to do his job like any other warlord: the ability to see stats, the ability to compute probabilities of outcomes (I presume that as a gamer, he could already do that, but the wrist gizmo made it much faster and much more accurate). It's not beyond the bounds of reason to suppose that his new sword hilt simply gives him the ability to fight with a degree of effectiveness.

[Vox]

Heh....seeing the actual list of forces makes me realize how hopeless GK's position really is.....

The following is a table of odds (slightly subjective), from highest to lowest:

Chuck Norris is on your side
Empire vs. Rebellion (could still lose if they have Luke, but unlikely)
Waterloo ("The nearest run thing I ever saw", could go either way)
Battle of Marathon: Tougher, but still winnable
Enterprise vs. Borg Cube: Hope you've got Q with you....
Thermopylae ("300" to you newcomers): At least you'll die heroically...and fight in the shade
Peter Jackson is writing this script: You're screwed, man (Chance of a dramatic rescue for plot related reasons. That's your only hope)

I'd place GK's position at somwhere between 300 and PJ's odds (think Helm's Deep). They have almost no chance, especially with the Tool's running out with their strongest units, but at least the Jackson isn't writing this one....

P.S. I love Peter Jackson's work, especially LOTR, but I am certainly glad not to be the good guy in one of the battles he's shot. Odds are not good for those people.

[Delbert]

A possible bit of information in the Klog hasn't been mentioned yet, so I've de-lurked in pursuit of same:

In the list that came with Parson's StupidMeal, there was no "Overlord, Unbalanced" entry. While a Chief Warlord might not be allowed information on his Overlord, Stanley's absence from the list may be a declaration that he has officially abandoned his claim to Gobwin Knob.

Since most tactically "ept" wargamers tend to be students of history, Parson probably has a clue how the politics of coalitions can be devastating to their continued success. I believe he will attempt to parlay, if only to get a better handle on the personalities of his opponents in hope of finding a weakness to exploit (such as Sir Webinar's antipathy towards [Princess] Jillian) to break apart the coalition.

Stanley may very well attempt to raid the Arkenpliers from Prince Ansom, but I think he'll hole up elsewhere to attune them.

Referring to earlier speculation on "who's the Good Guy", the feel of Erfworld has reminded me of both the boardgame "Kings 'n' Things" and the computer TBS game series "Heroes of Might and Magic" more than the recently mentioned (but excellent) "Master of Magic". In HoMM, the various factions have themes to their forces, with some having a more or less dark feel to the theme, but there isn't properly a "Good Guy" per se. I feel that Parson's run-ins with How the World Works and the nature of Good and Evil will proceed accordingly.

Sorry for the length of the message...

Delbert

[Jumdor]

teratorn: "You call that a long post? "
(Tried to use the quote deal. Didn't work out. )

Well I didn't want to seem rude being the first time posting here.

[Caledonian]

Two words: 'Kobayashi Maru'.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

@ Delbert: The Stupid Meal only mentioned the forces left in Gobwin Knob. As Stanley has left Gobwin Knob, he is not on the roster. However, this does not (yet) mean that Stanley has fled or is no more the leader of his own realm. It only means that Stanley and the Dwagons are no longer in the city.

The option to Parley is a rather risky move, what if Stanley finds out? He'll obviously see it as treachery and think "I Disband him/them", The End.

If Parson parleys and is so lucky as to keep Stanley from finding out, there's a lot of things a good parley could bring, false defection, false surrender, apple of discord.

In Romance of the Three Kingdoms (a Chinese Ming dynasty novel which is kind of an "art of war in practice" book) there are quite a few of such ploys, most notably during the naval Battle of the Red Cliffs (of which a movie will be released next year), which, looking at the difference in manpower on both sides is quite similar. The kingdom of Wei faced the kingdom of Wu aided by the soon to be kingdom of Shu. of Wei it was said they had a million men, Wu and Shu together had only about 70,000 men. The False Surrender/defection ploy was used more than once by both sides and there was spying and double spying. Most influental was Pang Tong's (false defector of Wu to Wei) advice to Wei's commander to chain his ships together so their northern troops unused to naval warfare would have a more stable battle platform and not get sick. The second influential false surrender/Defection by a Wu commander was Huang Gai's, who used his moment of defection to get flaming barges into contact with Wei's chained-together fleet, which ended the battle as a grave defeat for Wei's million strong army.
Wei's ploys to break up Shu's and Wu's coalition by stimulating Wu commander Zhou Yu's jealousy of Shu's commander Zhuge Liang was time and time again foiled by the latter's intelligence and tolerance of Zhou Yu's attempts of getting him killed, for the sake of the coalition...

[fendrin]

A possible bit of information in the Klog hasn't been mentioned yet, so I've de-lurked in pursuit of same:

In the list that came with Parson's StupidMeal, there was no "Overlord, Unbalanced" entry. While a Chief Warlord might not be allowed information on his Overlord, Stanley's absence from the list may be a declaration that he has officially abandoned his claim to Gobwin Knob.

Stanley isn't on the list for the same reason that the dwagons aren't on the list: The list is only forces IN the city.

Since most tactically "ept" wargamers tend to be students of history, Parson probably has a clue how the politics of coalitions can be devastating to their continued success. I believe he will attempt to parlay, if only to get a better handle on the personalities of his opponents in hope of finding a weakness to exploit (such as Sir Webinar's antipathy towards [Princess] Jillian) to break apart the coalition.

Stanley may very well attempt to raid the Arkenpliers from Prince Ansom, but I think he'll hole up elsewhere to attune them.

Possibly. We don't know what the attuning process entails. It may be instantaneous.

Two words: 'Kobayashi Maru'.

AH, but what does that mean in the context of Erfworld? Is Parson going th hack the rules? Somehow I doubt it. Godmode is more likely, and (in my opinion) equally as disappointing of an outcome.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Two words: 'Kobayashi Maru'.

I don't see how. Parson can't hack the computer.

On the other hand, I read a Star Trek novel about the K. Maru, and how some of the other officers faired. Some fought, some left the K. Maru to its fate. Mr. Scott also "cheated," by launching an array of torpedoes to overload the shields at overlap points, after he had proven in an engineering class that the theory was false.

That was many years ago, and I don't remember the details.

[Wadoka]

On the other hand, I read a Star Trek novel about the K. Maru...

That was one of the old Pocket Book trade paperbacks, and the title was, AFAICR, "The Kobayashi Maru".

Your details are fine. I remember Chekhov's "You don't have to win, but you do have to not lose" solution, also known as "It's okay to lose if the other guy loses too" gambit.

* * *

What's the thought here? Parson exploits another gap in the Rules? I remember the heated arguments I used to have with people about vague rules in the "Axis and Allies" and "Shogun" board games... the arguments almost turned violent at times. Would the Titans intervene?

[Delbert]

Ugh. In my pitiful attempt to save face after not remembering the list heading in boldface, I'll point out that troops are often listed by their city of origin in computer strategy games. However, "...in Gobwin Knob." (emphasis mine) seems pretty specific.

Given that Parson sees the coalition as the "good guys", I think he'll feel comfortable in offering parley. Treachery is much less likely without Stanley being involved (from either side's perspective), as the coalition is specifically against Stanley (wouldn't be worth it without him) and Stanley is after the Arkentools (which, while Ansom would probably take the meeting, wouldn't tempt Stanley unless Stanley knows about it). Parson has much to gain (gauging his opponents, forming wedges in their unity, possibly ending the conflict), while little to lose given how bleak GK's position is at present.

Ah, well...

Delbert

[teratorn]

Given that Parson sees the coalition as the "good guys", I think he'll feel comfortable in offering parley. Treachery is much less likely without Stanley being involved (from either side's perspective),

Well, they may think it's some sort of trap. They have no lookamancers, they don't know if Stanley isn't simply hiding (they know he has a foolamancer).

Parson may go for the alliance flyers. It's likely they are still with the cloth golems. Without warlords they would be forced to engage in fighting.

[SteveMB]

Parson may go for the alliance flyers. It's likely they are still with the cloth golems. Without warlords they would be forced to engage in fighting.

First, he would have to find them (he knows where they are this turn if he remembers from the Big Board display; after this turn, he'd have to re-locate them by sending out some of his copious supply of expendable units). Second, without flyers of his own he can only attack enemy fliers if his units have the approriate special abilities (archers or units specifically adapted to the terrain type). Third, the enemy flyers currently do have warlords -- the fastest ones are with Ansom, Jillian, and Vinnie; the rest are with Webinar and Dora.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Horrible parody under the spoiler tags:

Spoiler

Show

(To the tune of the Thundercats Opening Theme)

Gobwin... Gobwin... GOBWIN... GOBWIN KNOB! BOOOOOOOP!
Gobwin Knob has no moves
Gobwin Knob is booped!

Broken Magic
Bladeless Sword
Gobwin Knob is booped!

Gobwin... Gobwin... GOBWIN... GOBWIN KNOB! (x4)

GOBWIN KNOB!!!!

That was LOL (literally, and damn i'm at work :S)

[jindra34]

No, not necessarily. The Tenchiken from Tenchi Muyo was a lightsaber in all but name, but it looked nothing like the original. That goes double for Ryoko's sword from the same show, which was effectively a lightsaber without a hilt.

On the other hand, the Tenchiken did something that I've never seen a lightsaber do (caveat: I haven't seen the Star Wars prequel trilogy): it took over the fight, and battled Ryoko for Tenchi, effectively dragging him along behind: “This sword has a mind of its own, and if it were up to me, I wouldn't even fight a monster like you!”

I assume you understand the implications of a last minute gift similar to the Tenchiken (more in line with tenchi universe than muyo)...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, they may think it's some sort of trap. They have no lookamancers, they don't know if Stanley isn't simply hiding (they know he has a foolamancer).

Parson may go for the alliance flyers. It's likely they are still with the cloth golems. Without warlords they would be forced to engage in fighting.

That's the tricky part. There were quite a few marbits surrounding the battle bears and siege engines, and though they badly damaged the attackers, they didn't kill any of the dwagons. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html

(I really need to learn how to do that trick of linking to a word or phrase.)

I don't think Parson has enough archers or other shooters to stop more than Dora and Webinar, let alone take down three Archons backing up Jillian, Ansom and Vinny.

[SteveMB]

(I really need to learn how to do that trick of linking to a word or phrase.)

There should be an icon for "Insert Link" in the "Reply" window. Highlight the text you want to link, click on that, and enter the URL.

Links can be inserted manually by typing:

[URL="http://-insert URL here-"]linked text[/URL]

[teratorn]

I don't think Parson has enough archers or other shooters to stop more than Dora and Webinar, let alone take down three Archons backing up Jillian, Ansom and Vinny.

I'm not sure Jetstone is willing to pay the Archons now that they are not really needed.

If Parson finishes the "slow" gwiffons that were with Jillian before the hunt, that leaves only four mounts (+carpet). I'm not saying Parson should send archers to do that, just spidews and a few golems, maybe some knights. The gwiffons are forced to fight, no need for archers.

With only four gwiffons raiding the walls becomes to risky. The archers just need to concentrate on a gwiffon at a time. It all depends on much damage the gwiffons can take.

[SteveMB]

If Parson finishes the "slow" gwiffons that were with Jillian before the hunt, that leaves only four mounts (+carpet). I'm not saying Parson should send archers to do that, just spidews and a few golems, maybe some knights. The gwiffons are forced to fight, no need for archers.

Again, why would they be forced to fight? The slower fliers were accompanied by Webinar and Dora when last seen.

[discnerd]

At the mention of a bladeless hilt I was reminded of Starchaser: The Legend of Orin . Maybe Parson is a chosen warrior to prevent the diabolical schemes of some evil being.

[Occasional Sage]

I think that that sword, whatever it does, it's a VERY powerfull tool. All the other stupid stuff were.

How were the other items "VERY powerful"? I've seen this opinion several times in the thread, and only Arkenputtyknife stands out in me memory as disagreeing (apologies to other people I may have forgotten, I just read through the entire thread), and I don't understand it.

The "3-D glasses" mimic a basic ability all native-Erf leader- and caster-units possess intrinsically. They don't give Parson the ability to DO anything with the stats that he sees; they simply plug a gap caused by summoning, rather than popping, a warlord.

The Bracer of Calculation, or whatever it's really called, are a shortcut. The calculation of odds can be done longhand with paper and pencil, a process with which I'm sure Parson is familiar. The only thing that can make such calculations wonky is the concept of exploding dice, and even that isn't too tough a formula to apply once you work it out. Being able to do the calculations quickly would be INCREDIBLY useful in a real-time game, but in a turn-based environment he can theoretically take all the time he needs to work out his plan, unless there is a built-in time limit on the turn.

Of course, that really leaves me to admit that I don't have the vaguest clue either. Based on my interpretation of the previous toys, though, I'm looking elsewhere for the solution to Parson's troubles.

[Jasdoif]

Of course, that really leaves me to admit that I don't have the vaguest clue either. Based on my interpretation of the previous toys, though, I'm looking elsewhere for the solution to Parson's troubles.

Why, though? By your own interpretation, all the toys enhance Parson's ability to properly interact with the world with his preexisting capability. That may be precisely what he needs, a proper focus towards some aspect of the game that he hasn't yet contemplated (or even been aware of).

[Caledonian]

Possible Kobayashi Maru scenario:

Spoiler

Show

Parson offers to surrender, with terms. During the extraordinarily long negotiations with the alliance committee, the rest of Gobwin Knob escapes through a new tunnel that Sizemore constructs.

The key will be to recognize that any victory condition is defined by an external set of factors that can themselves be altered.

[Caledonian]

Additional:

Someone added the Erfworld reference to the Wikipedia entry on the Kobayashi Maru.

[Occasional Sage]

Why, though? By your own interpretation, all the toys enhance Parson's ability to properly interact with the world with his preexisting capability. That may be precisely what he needs, a proper focus towards some aspect of the game that he hasn't yet contemplated (or even been aware of).

While the new toy might show him the solution, I don't think it will be the solution. I was responding more to the several (or more than several!) folks who seem to be anticipating a lightsaber-esque toy, which is very different than we've seen from the meals so far.

I personally hope that there is a loophole that solves this, which makes us all say "What?! Oh, they set this up with panels x, y, and z over the course of 27 pages, why didn't we put those together before now?!" I'm anticipating something brilliant, obscure, and retrospectively obvious. Where the inspiration comes from is really just flavor; nice, and enjoyable, but not the substance of the matter.

Frankly, though, I hope they give us both.

[Wender]

How were the other items "VERY powerful"? I've seen this opinion several times in the thread, and only Arkenputtyknife stands out in me memory as disagreeing (apologies to other people I may have forgotten, I just read through the entire thread), and I don't understand it.

The "3-D glasses" mimic a basic ability all native-Erf leader- and caster-units possess intrinsically. They don't give Parson the ability to DO anything with the stats that he sees; they simply plug a gap caused by summoning, rather than popping, a warlord.

Maybe the sword gives Parson a basic ability all native Erf leader units possess intrinsically: Combat capability. At his given level of 2.

[fendrin]

Maybe the sword gives Parson a basic ability all native Erf leader units possess intrinsically: Combat capability. At his given level of 2.

So you're saying that sometimes a sword is just a sword?

[Jumdor]

I'm anticipating something brilliant, obscure, and retrospectively obvious.

I hope for something that clicks real well to round everything off as well. Simple is good...

[Arkenputtyknife]

Two words: 'Kobayashi Maru'.

Am I the only person who can't help sniggering whenever “Kobayashi Maru” is mentioned? I don't think Star Trek, I think Puni Puni Poemi.

In Japan, “maru” is also a common suffix for the names of pet dogs.

The option to Parley is a rather risky move, what if Stanley finds out? He'll obviously see it as treachery and think "I Disband him/them", The End.

Doubtful. Stanley appears to have abandoned his city (that's how it looks to me, anyway), and he didn't disband Parson when he was mad as boop and had a long list of reasons to do so, so I don't see him doing it now. He's stopped expecting loyalty from Parson, so why would he accuse him of treachery?

Given that Parson sees the coalition as the "good guys"…

Yes, but he's also stated that he enjoys playing the bad guys.

I assume you understand the implications of a last minute gift similar to the Tenchiken (more in line with tenchi universe than muyo)...

I fink so, Brain, but where is Parson going to find a second at this time of night?

With only four gwiffons raiding the walls becomes to risky. The archers just need to concentrate on a gwiffon at a time. It all depends on much damage the gwiffons can take.

Although GK is described as the most heavily fortified place in Erfworld, I'm not so impressed. The trouble is that it's essentially a two-level motte and bailey, with the the crater wall acting as the outer bailey. The weakness of the motte and bailey is that it gives you an awful lot of wall to defend; it only takes one breach anywhere and you're pretty much done for. Parson apparently only has 32 archers, not nearly enough to effectively defend a wall of that length. The gwiffons can just fly around and pick a spot where the archers aren't.

But then, I'm thinking medieval siege warfare, rather than wargame. The principles may not apply here.

Edit: Out of curiosity, I went back to page 16 to get an estimate of the size of GK. Frame 6 gives a fair idea of the proportions in Parson's game. Assuming that hexes in Erfworld are comparable to those in the game (a big, though not unreasonable, assumption), it looks like the citadel, including its outer wall, is slightly larger than 1 hex, and is 2 hexes from the crater wall. By my reckoning, that means the wall is 18 hexes long—short enough for at least 1 archer per hex, but that's awfully thinly spread out. The wall may be shorter, but I can't see it being less than 12 hexes absolute minimum.

On the other hand, we don't know what GK has by way of defensive artillery. Trebuchets? Scorpions? We haven't been shown anything. I kind of suspect that Stanley may have relied a little too heavily on his dwagons in that role.

(Kudos to KeiranHalcyon for the much-needed and much-used Descriptive Table of Contents.)

[Occasional Sage]

Yes, but he's also stated that he enjoys playing the bad guys.

Yeah, and I wonder how long that will last. Enjoying the "bad guys" is all well and good in a game, but Parson is showing signs that he's no longer thinking of this as a game.

At least, not quite as much anyway.

I would like to think it takes a special kind of messed-up brain to want to live around, eat beside, and kick it with twolls, uncroaked, et cetera. I like playing them as much as the next guy, but my tolerance for knights in shining armor goes up dramatically when deciding who I want to pass in a narrow hallway around midnight....

[Vreejack]

Probably. They would probably qualify as archer units. That may be why he wanted to take out the bears first. Their rocks would probably do a bit more than the marbit's bolts. Also, given the game basis of Erfworld, I doubt friendly fire is much of an issue.

Only true for tactical games that are played out in an abstract fashion. It's not certain in Erfworld, but every computer game I have ever played that had a RTS tactical component permitted friendly fire. Some abstract ones did as well if it involved splash damage from explosions or boiling oil.