Frostweaver (Spheres in Review)

[SangoProduction]

Preamble: Going to be honest. I tried playing as a Frostweaver precisely once, when it released. Asked permission to retrain, since... well, the character died, and came back as an absolute abomination of nature and elfity. So it seemed like a cool way to accentuate the story change... immediately chose to not take this archetype, because even though I'm more than happy to multiclass out of incanter, a lot of the time... this really felt like I was giving up *so much* of the incanter, and tying myself into going almost monoclass.
So, I'm hoping that this changes that preconception.

And, as much as possible: I'm basically going to be reviewing it as its own separate class (that just happens to have a choice of a few bonus feats, or 2 incanter specializations (probably some kinda familiar, if I'm honest) ). I'm not going to go over what is being traded out, because it makes it clear: You trade out the "class features" of incanter, save for 2 specialization points. (And really, it gets you the +1 talent and CL for nature sphere. So basically gets your full spec load out, if you're going nature anyway.) It's a full-caster hull upon which they built up an entirely different class, and simply made it mutually exclusive to incanter.

Post-Review Analysis: It kind of exceeded my expectations. Not gonna lie. Sure, there are some definite dud abilities but... they aren't the focus of the level you get them all. They feel more like fluff abilities, than actual duds. It all comes together pretty nicely. Not a bad class. Save for being exclusive with Incanter. But Sphere wizard is literally the same thing as Incanter. But trades 2 specialization points for Scribe Scroll and a familiar. (Well, 1 specialization point, because 1 bonus magic feat per 5 wizard levels.)

Spoiler: Ratings

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(1) Superb: You always want this if it's relevant to you. And it probably is.
(1.5) Really Good: Particularly useful bits of kit, but aren't quite must-haves. (Kept it decimal, because spreading out Good so far from Superb felt unrepresentative. But I needed a step between)
(2) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds. Among your first picks.
(3) Meh: Doesn't hurt to have. Wouldn't go out of your way for it.

(4) No: It technically has a use, but the cost to take simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.
(5) Never: There’s no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.
(6+) Harmful: Taking/using this is actively detrimental to your character.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign you’re playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(?) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or it’s far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.

Note: I'll be referencing the element instead of cold, since there are explicit adaptations to make work with the other nature packages.

Spoiler: Class Features

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Skills (1): 2 more class skills for free. Including perception, the most used skill in the game.
Servant of Winter (1): +1 talent and CL for nature sphere. Simple as.

Incanter Specializations (1.5): Familiars are really good. And cute. But good. Also adorable.

Frost Motes (?): A new pool of resources to do class-specific things.

Frost Most Augmentation (?): This is primarily a method of delivering Spellrimes from Ice Charms. But adding the (element) descriptor to your spell is occasionally useful.

Ice Charm (?): The things to spend your pool of resources on.

Blessings of Winter (?): The pick-a-class feature so common to

Frozen (2): +2 CL to any (element)-descriptor spell. That's cool.

Spoiler: Frost Mote Recovery

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Daily Refresh (3): Pool of Motes refreshes each day to its max: your CAM. The most reliable method you have. Very long cool down timer. But also does not take any *additional* time, over and above your normal rest.

Saving Throw (1): Regain 1, when an enemy fails a save. Never more than 1 per spell. But still, AoE are your friend, for giving you more chances per spell.
Wintery Reclamation (1.5): Immediate action, regain 1 when a creature within 60 ft is dropped... while under the effects of an (element)-descriptor spell. Must have at least 1/2 your level as HD to count. Overall? You are probably going to spend more motes per enemy than you kill, unless you go for an intensely overkill alpha strike build. Or hoard your motes. (Becomes a non-action once per round, in Medium range, with Gelid Arcanum.)
Commune (3): Spend 1 hour to gain 1 mote. Reliable, and has no cool down. But has a 1 hour windup...as I said. And in most modern campaigns, if you've got that time, you're probably going to rest soon anyway. But for the rest of the time, you might have 1 extra mote before your next fight that day. Or you get interrupted 50 minutes in.

Spoiler: Ice Charms

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Charms have DC 10 + 1/2 class level + CAM, and has (element) descriptor.
You can activate a Spellrime as an additional effect, added to sphere effects, which you activate Frost Mote Augmentation on.

Level 1
Icesension (3): Creates a bridge or stairs, up to 10 ft / frostweaver level. It can also be walked through without impediment, and is easily destroyed. Specifically designed to be exclusively useful as travel utility. Useful when it's useful. It scales quicker than Creation, without talents... for this one and only purpose.

Ice Friend (1.5): Well shucks. You get a familiar, passively, from this. So long as you have 1 frost mote. And you care a lot less about it dying, due to it passively regenerating when you rest to regain spell points. What will you spend your 2 specialization points on now? Feats? Well, considering you probably want to mono-class this, maybe.

Winter's Kiss, Spellrime (2): Flexible healing or damage. To one creature you affect with your ability. At a rather reasonable rate of 1 / level, plus one per remaining mote. Which means you can technically trade a feat for +2 damage but... ew. But it's also more uses in addition to damage. So it could be considered a multiplier, up to a point. It's flexible, and useful. Even helps to wear down enemy on otherwise non-damaging abilities. Granted... not by a lot, if non-damaging abilities are your thing. But... pick up destruction sphere if you want to?

Level 4
Freeze Magic (F) Standard or immediate action to "freeze magic" (as though counterspelling it) that's either ongoing, or as it's created. Which basically just changes the spell into one whose effects are more in line with your element.
Even works against supernatural effects. Has some synergy with the other one you get at this level. Makes predicting which element you need to have resistance to easier.

Heart of Ice (F): +2 to saves vs (element) descriptor. Oh and 5 cold res, which is utterly insignificant. But hey, have fun. It's passive. And the save bonus is going to occasionally be useful.

Whiteout, spellrime (1.5): protect one affected creature with 20% concealment. +2% / (level-5). That's actually really rather significant. Lasts up to the minimum between: 1 min / level, or the duration of the augmented spell.

Level 8:
Crystalized Magic (1): Full round action and 1 mote (cost and reserved) to flex into any sphere or talent for as long as it's manifested. Which can be manifested for an indefinite duration. Though only 1 at a time until at least 13th level.

Icy Barrier (5): For most of the utility of Creation sphere, you want to just take that. But this lets you create (relatively weak) barriers as an *immediate* action.

Level 12
Cold Wave (1): Swift action. 30ft burst (unfriendly aoe). Fort save, or suffer -2 saves vs (element) descriptor, and gain (element) vulnerability for at least 6 rounds. So... that's incredibly potent. In addition to the fact that you also get a benefit from needing to do it an additional time, to get the rest of those who passed the save last time.

Hobbling Cold, spellrime (4):Each affected creature saves, or has half speed for at least 6 rounds. With multiple potential halvings. Speed is generally not a meaningful stat.

Frostwalker (2, F): Passively get to stand on air, including walking up and downwards at 45 degree angles. Sure, you've had potential flight for 12 levels at this point, as well as a bridge and flight of stairs up to 120 ft in length. But this is free and passive. Takes no preplanning either.

Level 16
Icy Crystal Step (1,5?): Depends severely upon what your specialized element is. But you can teleport up to 60 ft between patches of (element) as a move action. Which as you can imagine is a little easier for air than (well, anything else, for most campaigns). But it's got better range than Step Through Darkness, but areas of darkness can be really excessively large, and near indefinite, and mobile. So long as you don't pick an element that's just really difficult to generate, or to naturally have available, it should be just as good if not better. Water and frost, for example, generally is not abundantly available in combat, until you actively generate it. Similar to fire, although it at least has a way of self-perpetuating after you're done blasting.

Winter's Prison, spellrime (1.5): Spent on casting a sphere effect that targets only one creature, and, has a saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is chained... paralyzing it. As a rider effect. But they get a save every round.

Level 20
Servant of Eternal Winter (1+): 1 minute, and 3 frost motes. Clone another creature with no more than your levels in CR. Only one at a time. But now you control 2 characters, even including non-playable characters. Now this is a capstone worthy of the name.

Spoiler: Blessings of Winter

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Gelid Arcanum (1): You take the extra range, if you need the extra range. What's being rated is getting a no-action Wintery Reclaim, once per round. Which means you can freely use your swift action, and not worry about missing out on resoruces, in all but the most swarmy of fights. And during swarmy fights, you get to positively spam out your frost motes.

Glacial Mysteries (1.5): In general? Nothing much to really get here. But there is Freezing Spells, which adds a passive Slow (aka, a more punishing stagger) to all cold spells. Probably the single best one of the lot. Not going to check out the oracle mysteries of the other elements. They are just really depressingly uninteresting.

Extra Frost Motes (2): +2 frost motes. Can be selected multiple times. Gets a ratings bump due to being a nice, acceptable, repeatable option when there's so little else to pick.

Primordial Cold, level 6 (F): Half of your specialized element is irresistible. Your *specialized element.* Granted... 9 times out of 10? You probably just want to swap to a different blast type. -50% damage tends to be more reduction than losing a couple caster levels. And if the resistance/immunity doesn't come to 50% of your damage? Then you gain literally nothing out of this. But it's really fun to make a fire elemental feel the heat.

The Cold Never Bothered You Anyway, level 10 (??): Dude, this is unironically a really complex effect (to fully evaluate). You totally ignore (weather type) for all purposes, and all your mantles assume that your (weather type) is maxed, regardless of current conditions. The first part? Very campaign specific for it even mattering, unless you go hard on Weather sphere and make active use of it. Air and Plant are the best elements for that part. For the mantles? Go have a look for yourself, I reviewed them all. But... I definitely did not assume you get to max out the effects (for your given capability).


Frosted Mana, Spellrime, level 10 (5): Spends +1 frost mote. Spell point cost reduced by 1 (min 0). Considering you are required to be level 10... and spell points scale with levels... and frost motes don't...
Whispers of Frost (5): 1 shaman hex from the frost spirit. Not a single useful hex out of the bunch, due to taking a standard action to use

Spoiler: Elements

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You get to choose which elemental option to specialize in. Here's the 10,000 foot overview over each option.

Cloud Spinner: Reliable damage type. Excessively reliable teleports. Great weather option.
Stone Speaker: Very reliable, if... gruesome... damage type. Very reliable teleport. Disturbing Winter's Prison. Very disturbing.
Frost Weaver: Semi-reliable damage type. Unreliable teleports (barring specific campaigns in the frigid north). A useful Glacial Mystery
Flame Kindler: Unreliable damage. Unreliable teleport (unless you are literally in hell). Speaking of hell... Winter's Prison is somehow. OK, let's not pretend like even its normal version isn't disturbing. But... Yeah. Fluffy weather immunity.
Bloom Tender: Physical (Least reliable) damage. Typically reliable teleport. Most useful weather immunity for scouting in particular.
Ingot Shaper: The single worst nature package, with almost no redeeming qualities. Least reliable damage. Probably reliable teleport (depending on the DM's interpretation/setting).

(I held out hope for Ingot Shaper. But its one redeeming quality was done better by Stone)

[Kitsuneymg]

I hate this class with a passion. Because if the “open ended” freeze effect. It’s my opinion that such effects should stay in rules-lite collaborative story telling games and not in a rules heavy game like pathfinder. I consider it incompetent, actually. And need to find the author so I can avoid any further “products” from them.

[SangoProduction]

I hate this class with a passion. Because of the “open ended” freeze effect. It’s my opinion that such effects should stay in rules-lite collaborative story telling games and not in a rules heavy game like pathfinder. I consider it incompetent, actually. And need to find the author so I can avoid any further “products” from them.

OK, I'm not going to lie, I think the effect is really...lacking, and rather poorly formatted for what it is. But you are simultaneously complaining about, and accusing the ability of, two opposites simultaneously. You are saying it's open ended. But also that it's not rules-lite.
These are mutually exclusive accusations. Unless you're saying that it's got a lot of rules that don't close any ends.

1) Execution: Standard or Immediate action
1.5) Conditions: When a magic effect is being cast within 60 ft
2) Attempt: MSB check
3) Effect: a) change descriptor to cold
3b) change damage to cold
3c) potentially change other effects as deemed appropriate by the DM.

And then it goes on to list examples. So... it is explicitly calling for adjuration and collaboration on effect and functionality changes, as appropriate.
I'm not seeing an exceptionally long, nor entangled, list of rules. An awful lot of words to express it, but not really a lot of rules.

[Seerow]

OK, I'm not going to lie, I think the effect is really...lacking, and rather poorly formatted for what it is. But you are simultaneously complaining about, and accusing the ability of, two opposites simultaneously. You are saying it's open ended. But also that it's not rules-lite.
These are mutually exclusive accusations. Unless you're saying that it's got a lot of rules that don't close any ends.

1) Execution: Standard or Immediate action
1.5) Conditions: When a magic effect is being cast within 60 ft
2) Attempt: MSB check
3) Effect: a) change descriptor to cold
3b) change damage to cold
3c) potentially change other effects as deemed appropriate by the DM.

And then it goes on to list examples. So... it is explicitly calling for adjuration and collaboration on effect and functionality changes, as appropriate.
I'm not seeing an exceptionally long, nor entangled, list of rules. An awful lot of words to express it, but not really a lot of rules.

3C is the issue with the ability. Instead of having a mechanically distinct effect, it's "Yeah we want you to be able to do cool ice-themed things with it besides damage, but don't want to codify any of those things so talk to your DM and make it work".

Which is exactly how you would expect the ability to work in a rules light game. But not what you generally expect out of Pathfinder or Spheres. Say we run into a wall of force. Can I use Freeze Magic to turn that into a wall of ice that we can now punch through? I'd argue yes, a DM might argue no. The actual ability that allows it throws its hands up and says "Who knows?"


That said completely ignoring that part and using it just for changing descriptor and damage is potentially handy. And I really love pretty much everything else in the class. One of my first spheres characters was a Frostweaver with a Necromancy bent, combining Elementalist nonsense with Frostfallen Undead Minions, and it was pretty great.

[SangoProduction]

OK, there. Nailed down the complaint. And I agree with it, for the most part.

[Ady]

Having played a Frostweaver recently, I found Icy Barrier to be far more effective than you give it credit for - it's a drain on your resources to be sure, but the fact it takes your Immediate Action makes it infinitely more useful. Creation/Protection barriers are definitely more powerful, but being able to blast with your standard action and disrupt enemy turns with your barrier is great. Besides, it's an extra barrier you can deploy once your other barrier breaks.

[SangoProduction]

Having played a Frostweaver recently, I found Icy Barrier to be far more effective than you give it credit for - it's a drain on your resources to be sure, but the fact it takes your Immediate Action makes it infinitely more useful. Creation/Protection barriers are definitely more powerful, but being able to blast with your standard action and disrupt enemy turns with your barrier is great. Besides, it's an extra barrier you can deploy once your other barrier breaks.

I 100% missed that it was an immediate action. Thanks for keeping me honest.

[AsuraKyoko]

Icy Barrier being an Immediate action makes it pretty great, actually. It's kinda like Wings of Cover, but with some unusual caveats. I have a character with a similar ability in another game, and it is a great way of blanking a single attack, blocking movement, stopping a charge, etc.

[Ramza00]

wait, we recreated wings of cover? aka nope for 1 effect as an immediate action

cool / not-cool

[SangoProduction]

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