The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Debatra]

If I'd been paying attention I could have done another joke entry, but I kinda did the obvious ones already and it's also just been too long since I did a proper one.

You know, I think I'm also going to throw my own vote in for +1. When I saw it was a Plant, I was expecting a pile of hot garbage, but this thing is actually kinda nice.

Any other thoughts/votes before we move on?

[Tzardok]

Meh, I've not voted for far too long. Let me throw my own +1 in.

[emulord]

Im going to disagree, it can't really cast magic, and its speed is far too low to be a martial, and it can't see to be a ranged attacker. Even if its stats are good, any reasonable enemy will keep their distance and pepper you with arrows+fireballs, have to say LA -0

[danielxcutter]

There are plenty of ways to increase speed or otherwise get around it. Haste is pretty common by that level, for one, as are Longstrider and Snowshoes. As mentioned earlier, psionics are still quite viable and it makes for a pretty good martial chassis as well.

[Remuko]

Im going to disagree, it can't really cast magic, and its speed is far too low to be a martial, and it can't see to be a ranged attacker. Even if its stats are good, any reasonable enemy will keep their distance and pepper you with arrows+fireballs, have to say LA -0

i mostly agree with this. I don't think its awful, which is surprising for what it is, but i think +0 is fine

[Metastachydium]

Im going to disagree, it can't really cast magic, and its speed is far too low to be a martial, and it can't see to be a ranged attacker. Even if its stats are good, any reasonable enemy will keep their distance and pepper you with arrows+fireballs, have to say

…assuming it's an enemy monster that tries to fight alone. No, it's not Wizard material, but so much better: you can have a Wizard in the party for, you know, that optimal BFC thing Wizards do so that kiting it becomes less viable a tactic. Not that it's surprisingly good stealth (doubled with soundless communication for the whole party) doesn't help on the same front. And at that point… It's +4 STR with four attacks that all deal STR and CON damage, with a save based on its +6 CON. At only 4 HD.

And hilariously enough, it's even a passable backup face in a pinch with +4 CHA and that discount Tongues on top of all that.

IWhen I saw it was a Plant, I was expecting a pile of hot garbage

While it's not even a plant Plant, if I had feet, I'd be kicking you now.

Anyhow, have another +1 for the weird munchkin Shrieker.

[Debatra]

-0 - emulord
+0 - loky1109, Remuko
+1 - Beni-Kujaku, Debatra, Tzardok, Metastachydium

+1 takes it. Next up is the Green Crusader... Uh oh. That one doesn't appear to be archived in the Wayback. Does anyone have a working link?

[Beni-Kujaku]

+1 takes it. Next up is the Green Crusader... Uh oh. That one doesn't appear to be archived in the Wayback. Does anyone have a working link?

Does this one work? It's a link to a drive with the original files for the Dreamblade monsters.

[Debatra]

Oh, it's Dreamblade again.

Actually, there are two in there that Thurbane missed in his MM6 thread. Nevermind, those are just normal creatures with existing templates.

[loky1109]

Does this one work? It's a link to a drive with the original files for the Dreamblade monsters.

Wow! You found this! I tried and I didn't success. Great!

[Debatra]

Green Crusader

Size & Type: Large Fey Extraplanar)
Space/Reach: 10'/10'
HD: 8
Speed: 40'
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +0, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +38, no penalties
Natural Armor: 8 (+ChaMod as Sacred to AC)
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Slams (1d6)
Skill List: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot (Listed out of order in the doc.)
Body Shape: Homanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Celestial, Sylvan)
CR: 12
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

Proficient with Greatclubs and Light Armor, and shields, resist 5 for all five of the "main" energy types, and DR 5/cold iron or Good. Its Nature's Grace also gives it ChaMod as a Sacred bonus to AC and Saves, as well as Nature's Strength adding its WisMod to attacks and damage, all making for a fairly strong chassis.

It also has quite a few SLAs, each usable "as a Druid of effective level equal to its HD". So Wisdom-based DCs, and scaling.

At-Will - Detect Evil, Detect Magic
3/Day - Calm Animals, Cure Light Wounds, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Speak With Animals
1/Day - Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease

So almost like a Druid-Paladin Hybrid?

[Tzardok]

It is kinda weird that a creature from the Upper Planes with a Good alignment and a focus on defending the good things in nature has a DR that can be overcome by Good weapons instead of Evil ones, like it usually would be the case.

[Emberlily]

any hit to BAB from fey HD and size is mitigated by the net +5 to hit bonus compared to a water orc or other +4str medium LA0 chassis, and then there's the +10/+13 damage modifier from stats alone, even before size, the +12 AC, and the +7/+5/+7 to saves. the SLAs don't look deeply notable but they're a nice addition. you're behind on initiator levels or BAB for iteratives, which isn't ideal, and there's also Extraplanar... before I make a numerical call, what are all the implications Extraplanar has on a player character again, beyond "can be dismissed/banished"?

[danielxcutter]

Losing that much BAB isn't insignificant; even if you're not going all the way to level 20 that'll still delay getting more iterative attacks. Being able to add Wisdom on top of its already high strength is really good though. Swordsage, perhaps?

[liquidformat]

any hit to BAB from fey HD and size is mitigated by the net +5 to hit bonus compared to a water orc or other +4str medium LA0 chassis, and then there's the +10/+13 damage modifier from stats alone, even before size, the +12 AC, and the +7/+5/+7 to saves. the SLAs don't look deeply notable but they're a nice addition. you're behind on initiator levels or BAB for iteratives, which isn't ideal, and there's also Extraplanar... before I make a numerical call, what are all the implications Extraplanar has on a player character again, beyond "can be dismissed/banished"?

Banishment, Blasphemy, Dictum(maybe), Dismissal, and Word of Chaos(maybe) are the main ones there might be one or two more. While they are a headache Green Crusader does have good will save + high Wis + high Cha so it will be hard for it to fail those will saves. Entangle is a nice BFC though I wish it was at will.

Also don't sleep on the fact that you have 2 slam attacks plus weapon attack. I could see going with a mix of totemist and swordsage adding in shadow blade to make a nice natural weapon blender. Also you can pretty easily hop into things like war mind or other good PRCs. This seems like a pretty straight forward +0 LA. While it doesn't give you anything crazy it gives you enough to have a lot of good paths and no glaring downsides.

[Remuko]

Banishment, Blasphemy, Dictum(maybe), Dismissal, and Word of Chaos(maybe) are the main ones there might be one or two more. While they are a headache Green Crusader does have good will save + high Wis + high Cha so it will be hard for it to fail those will saves. Entangle is a nice BFC though I wish it was at will.

Also don't sleep on the fact that you have 2 slam attacks plus weapon attack. I could see going with a mix of totemist and swordsage adding in shadow blade to make a nice natural weapon blender. Also you can pretty easily hop into things like war mind or other good PRCs. This seems like a pretty straight forward +0 LA. While it doesn't give you anything crazy it gives you enough to have a lot of good paths and no glaring downsides.

i gotta say if this 8HD CR 12 is only worth +0 thats pretty damning. Usually stuff with HD > CR are -0 and HD < CR are often higher than +0, especially one with CR this much higher. in my experience at least.

As to your actual points, can they use both slams and a weapon? slams usually use up your arms. you cant make a weapon attack with an arm you make a slam attack with, iirc.

im still sitting on my personal thoughts on what to rate this thing. Its definitely not above +0 imo. its really really disappointing for its CR to HD ratio.

[loky1109]

+0 LA for Green Crusader sounds good.

[liquidformat]

i gotta say if this 8HD CR 12 is only worth +0 thats pretty damning. Usually stuff with HD > CR are -0 and HD < CR are often higher than +0, especially one with CR this much higher. in my experience at least.

As to your actual points, can they use both slams and a weapon? slams usually use up your arms. you cant make a weapon attack with an arm you make a slam attack with, iirc.

im still sitting on my personal thoughts on what to rate this thing. Its definitely not above +0 imo. its really really disappointing for its CR to HD ratio.

From my understanding slams have never been specifically tied to arms by RAW and I have never been at a table where slams come from arms has been a rule. That is also part of what people like about going warforged, you can slam and use your full attack and with a feat you get two slams and a full attack.

[Emberlily]

if it does get even one slam while two-handing, that can do a lot to fill the gap left by the -4 BAB (not perfectly, but a lot). if it gets that then it's definitely a +0 for me, and even without it I'll still lean that rating at the moment.

[Remuko]

From my understanding slams have never been specifically tied to arms by RAW and I have never been at a table where slams come from arms has been a rule. That is also part of what people like about going warforged, you can slam and use your full attack and with a feat you get two slams and a full attack.

The srd says this

The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make ... or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm).

and if slams are used with arms, afaik they would then fall under the rule of you cant use a weapon attack with that arm that turn.

[danielxcutter]

Starmetal also does 2d6 damage to extraplanar creatures I think.

[Emberlily]

considering they get to add WIS to damage, which presumably doesn't get the x1.5 modifier from two-handing, does that open up much room for other setups besides "one two-handed weapon" being notably viable, by any chance?

[InvisibleBison]

I decided to compare how much damage a green crusader barbarian 2 could do to how much a LA+0 race barbarian 10 could do. The full analysis is in the spoiler, but the conclusion is that the green crusader does about as much as damage as the barbarian at higher but not extreme levels of optimization, and significantly more at lower optimization levels. Given the green crusader's better defenses and utility abilities, these damage estimates, and the policy of judging based on moderate optimization, I think LA +1 is reasonable.

Spoiler: Damage analysis

Show

Less optimized 10th level barbarian:

22 Strength (16 start, +2 racial, +2 advancement, +2 item)

+2 greatsword, power attacking for +3

+15/+10 to hit, 2d6+17 damage (average 24)

More optimized 10th level barbarian:

26 Strength (18 start, +4 racial, +2 advancement, +2 item)

+2 greatsword, using leap attack and shock trooper, power attacking for +10

+22/+17 to hit, 2d6+44 damage (average 51)

Less optimized Green Crusader Barbarian 2

34 Strength, 18 Wisdom

+2 greatsword, power attacking for +6

+18/+15 to hit, 2d6+36 damage (average 43)

More optimized Green Crusader Barbarian 2

34 Strength, 20 Wisdom

+2 greatsword, using shock trooper, power attacking for +6

+21/+16 to hit, 2d6+37 damage (average 44)

[danielxcutter]

Not sure if Barbarian is the best comparison, since its actual BAB is crud but it has a lot of other things instead. Wisdom or Charisma-based classes might give the most bang for its buck. The low BAB compared to to-hit and Wisdom to attack and damage makes me think Swordsage in particular since it focuses a lot more on strikes and has high Wis synergy.

[InvisibleBison]

That's a fair point. I mostly went with barbarian because it's pretty simple to do; it's a lot trickier to get a sense of a swordsage's average damage, given how disparate in effect maneuvers can be. But looking at a couple of swordsage stat blocks I have lying around, one 8th level and one 10th level, I think the green crusader does better as a swordsage compared to an LA+0 race than it does as a barbarian, so I think if anything using swordsage as a base of comparison might argue for a higher LA. But I'm sticking with +1 for now; I don't trust myself to do detailed game analysis at this time of night.

[danielxcutter]

Whether it makes it a better swordsage more than the general Wisdom synergy is up for debate, but having high Strength and being Large means it can afford to build differently from the average Dex-based swordsage. There are some nice Setting Sun and Stone Dragon maneuvers that would benefit greatly from those.

[Beni-Kujaku]

First, let's agree that this is in no way even close to CR 12. Still, X to Y bonuses are always really good, and the Green Crusader is just brimming with them. Already an effective +20 to Str, and more thanks to rolled stats. The problem is of course that it does not have good special attacks, and its SLAs are really not that good (though still good to have, especially restoration and at will detects. There are definitely things to do as a barbarian, or swordsage, or even as a Paladin. LA+0

[danielxcutter]

Swordsage probably is the best pick for this since it gets high damage bonuses but lacks in the iterative angle.

[emulord]

Holy moly thats a lot of bonuses, it feels like actual class features! The fey type and losing iteratives feels bad, but I think one big hit might be a good strategy, going Dungeoncrasher Fighter seems like it'd be pretty good. Knockdown, improved trip/bull rush, just being a utility fighter who has good resists, damage, and some crowd control
Because it has scaling, and seems strong at lower optimization, I think LA +1 would be fair.

[zlefin]

I'm going to go with +1; it feels like there's too many bonuses for a mere +0, all those stat synergies really add up to a very solid beatstick type and help it keep scaling well at higher levels. I haven't been on these threads much in a long while, so I don't know if standards have evolved much since I was last on;