The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[liquidformat]

pretty easy -0

[Debatra]

-0. Next is the Diamondback Viper... aberration.

[Debatra]

Diamondback Viper

Ah, I see. It's a pun. Yes, the gem is part of its body.

Size & Type: Tiny Aberration
Space/Reach: 2.5'/0'
HD: 1/2
Speed: 5', Fly 20' (Clumsy)
Ability Scores: Str -8, Dex +10, Con +0, Int +4, Wis +0, Cha +2 - Net +8, one penalty
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: Three Primary Bites (1d4 plus poison), one Secondary Tail Slap (1d6)
Skill List: Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble
Body Shape: Three-headed winged snake with a gemstone shell.
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Draconic, Terran)
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

Scent caps off the chassis. For a 1/2-HD creature, this is actually pretty nice. Interestingly, the wings are only for "minimal steering" during flight. There's a bladder full of lighter-than-air gasses in its shell.

Its poison bites have both initial and secondary damage of 1d6 Charisma damage, and for bonus points are flavored as hallucinogenic.

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.

The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. It's text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

Thanks, Tzardok.

[Thurbane]

Interesting one.

Such a sloppy, quickly written 3E monster, but it still has potential as a playable race, I guess:

• Tiny Aberration
• 1/2 RHD: so should be swapped out for class level
• 5 ft speed, fly 20 ft (clumsy), plus jet backwards at 80 (or 160) feet
• +4 natural AC
• 3 bites 1d4 + poison (1d6 Cha/1d6 Cha), tail slap 1d6
• Scent, darkvision 60 ft
• Str -8, Dex +10, Int +4, Cha +2: net +8.
• OKish racial skill list (not that this applies unless you advance by HD).
• Has Weapon Finesse and Multiattack listed as feats: may be safe to assume that Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat, as it often is for tiny creatures.

They rarely speak (which is not the same as unable to speak). Very nonstandard body shape, and no manipulative digits to speak of.

The ability mods alone make this fairly attractive, with no RHD looming over you once you start taking class levels. 4 natural attacks, 3 with poison, are also decent. Flight is nice, even though it's clumsy and not very fast (but jet seems to help). +4 natural AC plus size mod to AC, on top of +10 to Dex.

Not sure what your progression here would be? Maybe caster, maybe skillmonkey?

I'll give this a tentative LA +2 for the moment: lots of good stuff, offset mainly by body shape issues. I could be argued upwards, but I don't think I'd go below +2.

[danielxcutter]

Three bites means Rapidstrike is a thing, which is very nice.

[ciopo]

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.

With clumsy manouvrability, facing is still somewhat relevant

[Batcathat]

Diamondback Viper

Ah, I see. It's a pun. Yes, the gem is part of its body.

I must admit, when I first saw the image I thought "Why does this monster have a D20?".

And now I sort of wonder if there's some really rich roleplayer out there with diamond dice...

[Thurbane]

Am I correct in recalling that an attack must do damage to deliver poison?

1d4-4? Minimum is 1 damage on a successful hit, right?

[danielxcutter]

I think part of the "cats kill commoners" thing is that they still do 1 damage, so probably.

[H_H_F_F]

Tiny size, type, flight, and ability scores alone make this a very tempting choice for a sneak or a caster type (there's a Savage Species feat for multi-headed casters, IIRC)

Add in the natural armor, the cute disengage/chase with jet, and the truly excellent early-game poison spam... this is good.

The main downside is the lack of hands, which is significant. Slow, crappy movement plays a sidekick.

LA +2 seems solid, I think.

[Beni-Kujaku]

+10 dex and 4 natural armor is great at low level, and no HD makes this creature pretty good as a PC. The poison is also extremely good (1d6 Cha times 3 for the three bites? Count me in! That will disable a heck of a lot of enemies, even later on) That said, no manipulators will quickly become a problem, and for someone that wants to be a rogue (or a swordsage), Tiny size and 20ft clumsy flying is atrocious (no staying in place for flanking, no threatening the opponent, and provokes whenever it attacks). This prevents it from being absolutely broken, and you can't even take Prehensile Tail with such a low strength. LA+2 seems honestly a bit high to me. I'll vote for LA +1.


Also, can I just say that I love that they work with Xorns? A lone gem is really the best way to attract desperate, hungry Xorns so that they work with you.

[loky1109]

I'm vote for +1, too.

[Debatra]

+10 dex and 4 natural armor is great at low level, and no HD makes this creature pretty good as a PC. The poison is also extremely good (1d6 Cha times 3 for the three bites? Count me in! That will disable a heck of a lot of enemies, even later on) That said, no manipulators will quickly become a problem, and for someone that wants to be a rogue (or a swordsage), Tiny size and 20ft clumsy flying is atrocious (no staying in place for flanking, no threatening the opponent, and provokes whenever it attacks). This prevents it from being absolutely broken, and you can't even take Prehensile Tail with such a low strength. LA+2 seems honestly a bit high to me. I'll vote for LA +1.


Also, can I just say that I love that they work with Xorns? A lone gem is really the best way to attract desperate, hungry Xorns so that they work with you.

It doesn't provoke just by attacking, and it has Tumble as a class skill to mitigate the potential AoOs from needing to move into enemy spaces.

On the other hand, it's also not just no staying in place to flank, but no flanking period.

[Caelestion]

I think LA +2 is solid here, yes. You're only going to play this creature with specific builds, but what you get out of it is very good.

[Tzardok]

It has a "Jet" ability that lets it move "backward" 80' through the air once per round as a full-round action. Good thing 3.5 doesn't have rules for what direction you're facing. Or maybe 160'. Depends on how exactly "a double move action, at a speed of 80 feet" works in 3.0. Double-moving with 80' speed in 3.5 means you're moving 160', but I'm not sure of the minutia of 3.0. Either way it's useful.

The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. Its text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

[liquidformat]

I really like this punny snake and think the best path forward is Druid, between venomfire and fangshield druid giving you hands its hard to argue with it and maybe Avenger druid for a bit extra speed and to scrap the animal companion. I would probably take a level of barbarian to snag pounce and maybe take Ferocity in place of rage, if you have a generous DM you could probably trade your avenger druid rage for Ferocity too. Maybe swordsage dip and shadow blade to over come your horrible str penalty. Seems like Surrogate Spellcasting and eschew materials will be a feat tax if you want to do any casting, on the plus side with Surrogate spellcasting you don't need nature spell. Psionics will be a good choice too and the little snake makes a good Psion as well. Being tiny makes the Aberration subtype not very useful since you can't leverage it very well for alter self and you already have a pretty good form.

You can't flank so without leveraging invisibility and flatfooted opponents your going to find sneak attacking to be a headache so SA isn't such a great choice for you. A better choice would probably Invisible Fist Monk/Ninja, and most DMs do allow Ninja to take place for Ascetic Rogue feat so you could have a pretty solid build there with a few dips into unarmed swordsage + shadow blade feat and maybe warblade for good measure. The other option there is probably barbarian/scout/mystic ranger build for a pouncing charger build picking up venomfire for good measure, focusing your feats around fly by attack and things like Improved Flight and air heritage to increase your flying capabilities.

Anyways, the big glaring downsides of the snake is that it is slow, has no hands, str penalty, 1 to 2 feat tax if you want to be a caster (Surrogate spellcasting and eschew materials), and will probably be missing some item slots (I think you will have 3 neck slots, 1 ring/belt, one body/armor slot, and maybe a cape/clock?). On the upside no RHD, good ability scores, flying and great AC. Though you have four natural attacks you will either be ignoring them completely in favor of casting or you will have to put some decent resources in to shoring up your -8 str one way or another. The jet ability also seems pretty useless except as a panic button. I think +1 LA might be right here, you have some nice things but whether you go caster or melee you have some issues that have to be overcome the largest being no hands and that one can't be dealt with for at least 5 levels so you will be ECL 6 + before you can do things like open doors...

[Remuko]

I think this is clearly better than +0 and seems everyone so far agrees. I don't think its quite +2 like everyone else says. My vote is +1 for now. I'll leave the possibility for revision if someone brings up something convincing but atm I don't expect to change my mind.

[Troacctid]

I think this is an easy +2. Very high stats and a couple strong abilities.

[remetagross]

It's definitely an LA+2 for a Rogue chassis. for the +10 Dex alone, but the +4 Int does not hurt, as do three natural attacks and an extraordinary flight speed.

[AsuraKyoko]

Yeah, I think this is a pretty clear +2, it gets a lot, and its stat boosts are pretty high.

[Dimers]

No hips/shoulders/hands basically means it can't carry anything, including a bag of holding or handy haversack which is a typical workaround for a low-Strength character. Lack of hands interferes with some things adventurers do often -- manipulate rope, dig (whether with shovel or adamantine dagger), open doors, pull levers, direct horses, that kind of thing. The unusual form makes you easily identifiable and causes some social problems. Reach 0 is a serious disadvantage in melee combat -- where it needs to be if it wants to apply that very nice poison -- and obviously this critter won't be using projectile or thrown weapons. And body slots are disadvantaged.

With all that said, the Dexterity is good for any class at all, the size is a nice defense and helps with stealth, having any fly speed at all is a big advantage in the early game, the poison is great because few creatures have lots of Cha, the natural armor excels for that size and lack of RHD, and scent is useful.

Being one spell level behind as a full caster hurts, especially when you're pressed hard toward being a full caster by your inherent restrictions. And having one hit die in a 3rd-level game is super rough. I have to vote LA +1.

[Thurbane]

The text of Jet is copied from the kraken. It's text said in 3.0: "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a double move action, at a speed of 280 feet." This was changed in 3.5 to "A kraken can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 280 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting."

That makes it a lot clearer, thank you for finding that.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Multivoice is the Savage Species feat that lets you cast an extra spell/SLA in a round (in addition to your normal SLA, spell, or other special attack done with head, e.g. breath weapon) if you have multiple heads. Which is amazing, but it's got a lot of prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Multiattack, and Quicken Spell. Those last two are probably worth taking anyway, but a typical Diamondback won't be getting much use out of the TWF line.

[Tzardok]

That makes it a lot clearer, thank you for finding that.

No problem. The ability sounded familiar, so I went straight to the kraken to see wether it was actually the same. And lo and behold, it was the same.

[Caelestion]

And having one hit die in a 3rd-level game is super rough. I have to vote LA +1.

Well, yeah, that is the side-effect of having +2 LA. That's not a weakness: that's literally part of the point.

[Remuko]

Well, yeah, that is the side-effect of having +2 LA. That's not a weakness: that's literally part of the point.

the point of LA is to balance things. if it makes them so weak as to be unplayable thats not balanced. i think they were implying with +2 its too frail to be used at all therefore its not a balanced LA.

[Troacctid]

the point of LA is to balance things. if it makes them so weak as to be unplayable thats not balanced. i think they were implying with +2 its too frail to be used at all therefore its not a balanced LA.

It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

[Remuko]

It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

Yup I'm not necessarily saying its right but that's what I read at the intent behind their comment which seemed to be misunderstood by the person I was replying to.

[liquidformat]

It's definitely not so weak as to be unplayable at +2. I mean, the stats alone are well above any existing +1 LA options short of half-minotaur, and as for frailness, its racial stats give it +11 AC and +5 Reflex. It's not like it has a Con penalty.

Yeah, however, the half-Minotaur has hands, the ability to flank, can cast spells without feat taxes, can carry items, and isn't missing over half the item slots. This thing isn't all positives and it has some decently large negatives to deal with.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, however, the half-Minotaur has hands, the ability to flank, can cast spells without feat taxes, can carry items, and isn't missing over half the item slots. This thing isn't all positives and it has some decently large negatives to deal with.

Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.