MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[LadyEowyn]

Energy Drain buffs undead. It does not harm them.

Well, darn.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know why you keep saying this, it literally can. What it struggles to do is trick people into thinking it is the thing it is assuming the shape of.

I keep saying that because the meaning behind the complaint is "the protean can be all other creatures, therefore it can fit all clues" is simply untrue. Protean can have as many body parts from other creatures as it wants, but that doesn't mean it can be any of those creatures. It cannot have their powers, it cannot have their lore or abilities. It cannot even pass for them. So no, the complaint "the Protean feels like it could fit any option presented. It feels like the catch-all" and every variation thereof is just not true and as long as it keeps being brought up as if it were a valid complaint, I will keep pointing out that no, it is not. And the assertion that "not one that fits the evidence especially well" is also blatantly incorrect.

GW

[Ruck]

The more I think about it, the less convinced I am there is anything to be learned from "audience expectations," considering Rich made the decision on what MitD was nearly twenty years ago, and any expectations have been set by the nearly twenty years of writing since.

Which may just be a different way of saying what I was trying to say before, and what Crusher said more clearly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The more I think about it, the less convinced I am there is anything to be learned from "audience expectations," considering Rich made the decision on what MitD was nearly twenty years ago, and any expectations have been set by the nearly twenty years of writing since.

Which may just be a different way of saying what I was trying to say before, and what Crusher said more clearly.

Honestly, as usual, Kish had the right answer. The whole premise seems to be the belief that Rich intends to please his entire audience. But we know he does not intend anything of the sort, because we have seen him tell readers who didn't like some of his other plot points (e.g. the presence of non-cis characters) that he wasn't going to change his plot points to please them, and that the best they could do was to read something else.

Given that, and the reality that we cannot possibly guess what segment of the audience will be pleased by the revelation (other than the most crucial part of the audience, of course: the reveal will please Rich, since he tells us he's been planning it for decades and definitely sounds like he's got a banger of a reveal coming, by his standards), the whole approach is just barren. You'll gain more insights out of hitting the random button in tvtropes and deciding that whatever trope you landed in was going to be the basis of the reveal.

Grey Wolf

[Sir_Norbert]

You'll gain more insights out of hitting the random button in tvtropes and deciding that whatever trope you landed in was going to be the basis of the reveal.

Just for fun, I did this, and actually got a trope relevant to the MitD: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComeToGawk

[Ruck]

Honestly, as usual, Kish had the right answer. The whole premise seems to be the belief that Rich intends to please his entire audience. But we know he does not intend anything of the sort, because we have seen him tell readers who didn't like some of his other plot points (e.g. the presence of non-cis characters) that he wasn't going to change his plot points to please them, and that the best they could do was to read something else.

Yeah, this sort of plays into my point, in that, the longer the timeframe, the greater percentage of the audience is composed of people who are entirely interested in the story Rich is telling, wherever it goes. When something like what you describe happens, the people who want something from the story more than they want the story Rich is going to tell are going to peel off, and on and on, and now that process has been going on for twenty-plus years.

[Tubercular Ox]

Ox, if you just want to talk about the plot without actually trying to figure out what the MITD is (you know, the purpose of this thread), is there some reason you can't just do so directly in the pinned thread specifically for talking about the comic? I suspect you would find more people interested in speculating about the story with you there.

I asked once if I could start a thread to talk about the Monster in the Dark's future without mentioning any candidates, and I was told that it would be closed as a duplicate of this one. At the time that felt unfair, but if times have changed then the new problem is I've had doubts that it's what I really want. Since I started talking like this several people have brought up candidates and what, to me, feel like new reasons to pick a candidate. In a thread where people can't talk about candidates, those tangents can't happen, and that would make me sad.

And if that isn't what you want, then how does this list help us figure out what the MITD is? I promise I'm not saying this just to try and get you to go away or anything, I just genuinely cannot tell what you want out of this.

Thank you for the promise. I promise in return that I am trying to lay this out without trying to needle anyone. Twice now I've been accused of secretly shilling the Hunting Horror, and I promised that I was not interested in talking about any particular candidate. There is no way I am going to go back on that promise, even if I'm the only one who cares about it. I'm even afraid to say how this could be used to help find a candidate just in case anyone goes on a steeplechase looking for how I might be shilling the Hunting Horror this time.

But people are doing fine talking about candidates without me talking about candidates. Maybe it's better if anything there is to learn comes from them.

I think what Tibercular Ox means is: how could the plot be affected by MITD being Creature X rather than Creature Y, and how can that inform our theories on what kind of creature he is?

My first reaction was no, I'm not interested in candidates, but I think I can feed this without mentioning a candidate myself.

the nightmare beast appears to have Energy Drain (?), and after Xykon having deployed that to such effect on multiple ccasions, having it turned against him would be amusing.

Once upon a time I took very seriously the idea that the Monster in the Dark could crush Xykon, and asked myself how that can fit into the story, given that defeating Xykon is Roy's blood oath.

The Monster in the Dark could not crush Xykon, and do something else for the plot instead.

The Monster in the Dark could crush Xykon, and Roy gets a soliloquy about how it's more important that Xykon is defeated.

Roy and the Monster in the Dark could team up and destroy Xykon together, sharing credit.

Xykon could drop a nuke, or turn red, and the Monster in the Dark could face-tank it, making way for the party to continue the fight on fairer terms.

There could be two fights. The Monster in the Dark could complete its growth by besting Xykon, Xykon could escape, and then after some additional plot to cleanse the palate, Roy could take responsibility for finally destroying him.

Or Roy could complete his growth by besting Xykon, Xykon could try to escape, and the Monster in the Dark could stop him, in the process destroying him, while it's still obvious that Roy is primarily responsible.

And then there's the phylactery. One party could destroy Xykon, the other party could secure and destroy the phylactery. I put some thought into which would happen first, but the bottom line is I don't know.

Off the top of my head, it seems like any ability Xykon is immune to could still be used to best Xykon either when Xykon drops a nuke, and the nuke is a nigh-invulnerable monster that happens to be weak to the ability in question, or when the ability is key to securing and/or destroying the phylactery.

Is Rich signaling one of these opportunities more than the others? I ask the people with 1300 strips' experience reading Rich.

[Metastachydium]

No, it really really doesn't. The protean is not Sabine. It cannot shape change into whatever it wants. It can't copy anything but Ex powers.

That's a very funny thing to say, by the by, given that as a Succubus, Sabine is far worse at what you claim she excels at than a Protean. She can assume the form of Medium or Small Humanoids, and gain their movement modes (usually far inferior to her own) and Ex special attacks (but not special qualities), if any (again, we're talking Humanoids here). And that's really it.

[Tubercular Ox]

He just wants to be remembered for supporting the Protean he envisions, not the Protean envisioned for him.

[Ruck]

He just wants to be remembered for supporting the Protean he envisions, not the Protean envisioned for him.

What is the point of this comment, beyond trying to take a dig at Grey Wolf?

His description of Sabine and a succubus' powers may not have been accurate, but his description of a Protean's powers is.

[Tubercular Ox]

Why is this a dig? Is he supposed to enjoy it when people say he believes something he doesn't about the Protean?

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Let's keep discussion on the topic and not on other users.

[Ruck]

Why is this a dig? Is he supposed to enjoy it when people say he believes something he doesn't about the Protean?

Well, maybe you didn't mean it that way, but "envisions" just came off to me like "a different one than the one described in the sourcebooks."

Not a big deal, though. Main point is that his description of why the Protean can't "do anything" or "be anything" is, in fact, correct.

[Tubercular Ox]

When people walk into the thread and announce that the Protean is a terrible candidate because it can turn into anything, it’s natural to believe that they think Protean fans think it’s okay if the Monster in the Dark can turn into anything.

This sucks for Protean fans if they think that’s not okay. It’s natural to point out where they disagree, so Protean fans say the Protean can’t turn into anything.

There is pushback. I don’t care who is actually right here, I worry about what the prize for winning the argument is.

It’s not deciding whether or not it’s okay if the Monster in the Dark can turn into anything, everyone agrees that it’s not.

It should be about whether or not the Protean can turn into anything, but sometimes it feels like if Protean fans lose this argument they’re going to be assigned the opinion that it’s okay if the Monster in the Dark can turn into anything, even though that’s not something they believed at any point.

I mean, Rich himself could come out of the shadows to announce he considered the Protean and dismissed it because he thinks it can turn into anything. That still doesn’t mean Protean fans are okay with a Monster in the Dark that can turn into anything, because their own understanding of the Protean was and is that it’s a monster that can’t turn into anything.

[Sir_Norbert]

There is pushback. I don’t care who is actually right here, I worry about what the prize for winning the argument is.

Spoiler alert: Outside of formal debate competitions, it's not possible to win an argument.

[Kish]

Opinions on what is insulting to Rich apparently differ.

From where I'm standing, Rich can reasonably be assumed to understand the capabilities of the creature in the darkness--such that "who is right here" does actually matter: since the book spells out specific shapeshifting abilities for the protean that's what the protean has. And if someone comes into the thread thinking otherwise...the appropriate response to them is "one of your premises is wrong, fix it," not, "my opinion which is exactly equal in validity to yours disagrees with yours, let's roll dice" or anything that doesn't hinge on factual accuracy.

(I also am not co-signing an assertion that it's not okay if the creature in the darkness can turn into anything, if someone proposes an actual means by which a Star Trek changeling* could have teleported O-Chul and that random elf.)

*Do not attempt to tell me they can't turn into anything. Laas turned into fire and into a form that could travel through space. Odo turned into mist. What the writers sometimes say when they're ineffectually trying to pretend their "science fiction" show didn't actually feature a race of creatures of pure magic is unimportant.

[Joerg]

since the book spells out specific shapeshifting abilities for the protean that's what the protean has. And if someone comes into the thread thinking otherwise...the appropriate response to them is "one of your premises is wrong, fix it,"

But there seems to be some disagreement on how to interpret what the book says, at least between Grey Wolf and Keltest.

Generally speaking, that people don’t consider the possibility that Rich may interpret some rules (of D&D or of the guessing game) differently than they do seems to me to be a fallacy in this thread. I wouldn‘t be surprised if the MitD turns out to be something the thread doesn‘t really consider because of that.

[Keltest]

But there seems to be some disagreement on how to interpret what the book says, at least between Grey Wolf and Keltest.

I suspect that Grey Wolf is simply reflexively talking about the Protean's ability to copy powers, which is broad but finite, rather than its ability to assume the shape of another creature, which is more or less unlimited in scope. Alternatively, he's simply phrasing his objection poorly.


Independently from that, I find "he can only copy a very large number of powers rather than literally all of them." to be a somewhat weak counterargument against the intent of the complaint, but I also suspect that Grey Wolf has given up on convincing me, specifically, of the merits of that point a long time ago.

[Kish]

If the creature is a protean, I will be very surprised if Rich ever presents it looking like only one (non-protean) creature, although the ability to do so (with the constant expenditure of a move action every round) is inherent in "A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes)."

There is, as Sir_Norbert said, no "prize for winning the argument." Either someone is right about what the creature eventually turns out to be or one is not, and if it's the latter, having gotten everyone in this thread to nod or be silent whenever one declares what one's preferred candidate is means zip. (Actually, if it's the former, the agreement of everyone in this thread still means zip.) If someone misremembers what someone else has said, well, the Internet is forever: they can go back and look at what that person actually said.

[Ruck]

I don’t care who is actually right here, I worry about what the prize for winning the argument is.

What? Of course it matters who's right here. We're trying to come up with a (somewhat) scientific method of evaluating what the MitD might be; of course it matters if someone's evaluation is based in incorrect premises.

And there is no prize for "winning" the argument. There isn't even a way to "win" the argument. There is going to be an answer to what MitD is, period. I guess whoever was right "wins" in the sense they were right, but they aren't right because they successfully argued their case here; they're right because their evaluation of the available evidence matched the eventually revealed truth.

And as far as the "argument" of what the Protean can do... that's well-defined in the sourcebooks. (Here. Right here. Spelled out clearly.) So there isn't an argument to be "won" there, either. There are just correct and incorrect premises.

As far as the rest of your post... I don't know how to put it, other than that maybe you're putting the cart before the horse, or working backwards from a false conclusion, or something? It doesn't matter how anyone "feels" or what "opinion is assigned" to them about the Protean or MitD, because for the former we have the actual source, and for the latter we can see what they actually said and not just how other people feel about what they think.

On the other hand, when someone is arguing against the Protean, or any creature, it does in fact matter if their argument is based in incorrect premises about what the creature can do.

if someone comes into the thread thinking otherwise...the appropriate response to them is "one of your premises is wrong, fix it," not, "my opinion which is exactly equal in validity to yours disagrees with yours, let's roll dice" or anything that doesn't hinge on factual accuracy.

Yes, exactly.

[Crusher]

Spoiler alert: Outside of formal debate competitions, it's not possible to win an argument.

I agree. One of my favorite passages in all of fiction helped me see that point, and I'll share it with everyone now. Its from Leviathan Wakes, the first book in The Expanse series. Miller, a former cop, is stuck next to a former missionary on a cheap transport flight between asteroid cities. The missionary explains *why* there's no real difference between being a missionary and not being a missionary.

"But after a few decades, you come to a place where you realize that there's really no difference between trying and not trying. I still travel. I still talk to people. Sometimes we talk about Jesus Christ. Sometimes we talk about cooking. If someone is ready to accept Christ, it doesn't take much effort on my part to help them. If they aren't, no amount of hectoring them does any good. So why try?"

Its true of virtually any argument on a deeply-held topic. If someone isn't already 50+% ready to switch over to your side of thought before the argument even begins, you will *never* change their mind. At least, not this time around. Your goal isn't to win, because that's functionally impossible. Your goal is to find *one* chink in their conceptual armor, a point of potential concession. And then work to build common ground so that they'll potentially be willing to talk to you again and won't be angry and reject your point out of pique.

Changing someone's mind on something important to them is like trying to sculpt stone with wooden tools. With a lot of effort, you can slowly wear away a few of the very roughest edges, but the potential for larger, rapid changes depend far more on pre-existing cracks in the stone than your effort.

[Precure]

I suspect Ox playing a pool amongst the members.

[Ruck]

I also suspect that Grey Wolf has given up on convincing me, specifically, of the merits of that point a long time ago.

Well, when you've stated that your goal is to just nitpick every proposed candidate, and not to actually work toward determining an answer:

Given the lack of a perfect candidate, I'm not sure what else there is to do in this thread besides picking at imperfect candidates to see how they don't work.

then, yes, actually convincing you seems fruitless, if not impossible.

Also, I found this post I made from more than a year ago, and I guess it's never going to be not relevant:

Maybe the next thread title should be "No, the Protean Cannot 'Do Anything'."

[Mordar]

Sorry if this is beating a flying horse...

Does it appear people are generally assuming Miko and Windstriker (a) soaked the punched-through-the-wall and massive falling damage 374 p9 suggests, (b) Rule of Funny (and subsequent dramatic need) bypasses damage, (c) MitD uses something other than brute force to effect the effect, or (d) some combination of the above?

We certainly already see visual indications of damage in the comic, and neither Miko nor Windstrider have any hashmarks of black or red. We do see Windstriker downing some potions in 375 (four of them), so maybe we just didn't get the ouch-marks?

- M

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry if this is beating a flying horse...

Does it appear people are generally assuming Miko and Windstriker (a) soaked the punched-through-the-wall and massive falling damage 374 p9 suggests, (b) Rule of Funny (and subsequent dramatic need) bypasses damage, (c) MitD uses something other than brute force to effect the effect, or (d) some combination of the above?

We certainly already see visual indications of damage in the comic, and neither Miko nor Windstrider have any hashmarks of black or red. We do see Windstriker downing some potions in 375 (four of them), so maybe we just didn't get the ouch-marks?

- M

I cannot speak for "people", but the OP operates under the assumption that the tower scene is intended as a clue, which means the author communicating a fact about MitD. Given that MitD establishes the rules of the game as "hitting lightly" and the result is creatures punched through a wall, I conclude that the author's intention is to communicate great strength.

Over the years, people who were proposing creatures with lacklustre strength have either attempted to claim that the tower scene was not a clue at all, or come up with alternative explanations, neither of which have ever been particularly persuasive.

Grey Wolf

[Tzardok]

A creature with an ability in the direction of "If this creature hits with a touch attack, the target must make a Fortitude save or be shot away from it" would be an alternate explanation, but good luck actually finding such a creature.

[b_jonas]

Mordar: Yes, Miko and Windstriker took the fall damage. I tried to calculate at one point: the fall damage should be something like 10d6, so Miko has enough hit points to survive it, and so does her holy mount. But it's the same problem as with the escape: if the MitD hurt O-Chul in the escape or Miko in the tower, these paladins would not complain about the pain.

I'm less sure about the wall. The most likely theory still seems to be that Miko and Windstriker took damage from it, though some of that may have been reduced by their armor and equipment or other magic.

A less likely version is some creative rule interpretation where in the OotS, teleportation, or at least the MitD's teleportation-like ability, doesn't route you through hyperspace, but makes you take some kind of route in real space from your source to your destination. This would open a hole in the wall if you have to pass through one, but deal you little damage, given that the rules for the Teleport or Passwall D&D spells never deal you damage, and Dimension Door deals you a mere 1d6 and even that only if you end up inside a wall. Note that the Escape conveniently happens when the wall of that tower already has a convenient huge hole, and Nale dimension doors in an unfinished palace, as if Rich wanted to make sure that we never see anyone else teleport through a wall.

A problem with that is how Girard's family used the secret passages, but maybe they had some special spell researched to this that would let them go through the walls of their own pyramid only. There's no lack of such spells in D&D: Passwall, Ethereal Jaunt, Meld into stone, they're just either higher level than Dimension Door or not available to wizards. Or maybe there just were secret doors disguised by cunning illusions so Vaarsuvius couldn't find them. Or the MitD just has an ability that works differently from wizards' teleportation spells.

The third and least likely version is that the MitD has some rare special ability to make holes on tower walls, he used this and then kicked Miko and Windstriker through the holes, and the rules have strange shapes because of the rule of funny. It's still not clear to me whether the Carillion breaks tower walls by brute force of its hammers or it has some unique bonus specifically for breaking walls.

[mashlagoo1982]

Sorry if this is beating a flying horse...

Does it appear people are generally assuming Miko and Windstriker (a) soaked the punched-through-the-wall and massive falling damage 374 p9 suggests, (b) Rule of Funny (and subsequent dramatic need) bypasses damage, (c) MitD uses something other than brute force to effect the effect, or (d) some combination of the above?

We certainly already see visual indications of damage in the comic, and neither Miko nor Windstrider have any hashmarks of black or red. We do see Windstriker downing some potions in 375 (four of them), so maybe we just didn't get the ouch-marks?

- M

I had previously tried to find feats, abilities, or other such things that could be used like a shove. The idea would be trading attack damage to instead either guarantee the shove attempted would succeed or increase the distance the target was shoved.

That way, the action would both qualify as "attacking as lightly as possible" ie. no damage roll while still causing the dramatic effect of making the target being thrown back and through a wall.

[halfeye]

The other thing about the tower episode is that MitD has surprisingly little control.

That's probably a bigger clue than his strength, but we haven't worked out what it means yet.

[TurboGhast]

A less likely version is some creative rule interpretation where in the OotS, teleportation, or at least the MitD's teleportation-like ability, doesn't route you through hyperspace, but makes you take some kind of route in real space from your source to your destination. This would open a hole in the wall if you have to pass through one, but deal you little damage, given that the rules for the Teleport or Passwall D&D spells never deal you damage, and Dimension Door deals you a mere 1d6 and even that only if you end up inside a wall. Note that the Escape conveniently happens when the wall of that tower already has a convenient huge hole, and Nale dimension doors in an unfinished palace, as if Rich wanted to make sure that we never see anyone else teleport through a wall.

A problem with that is how Girard's family used the secret passages, but maybe they had some special spell researched to this that would let them go through the walls of their own pyramid only. There's no lack of such spells in D&D: Passwall, Ethereal Jaunt, Meld into stone, they're just either higher level than Dimension Door or not available to wizards. Or maybe there just were secret doors disguised by cunning illusions so Vaarsuvius couldn't find them. Or the MitD just has an ability that works differently from wizards' teleportation spells.

Doesn't comic #1248 contradict the idea that we've never seen anybody teleport through a wall? We see Serini teleport through the floor, and in the next comic see that the now-ceiling was solid before V's Passwall took effect.