MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Tzardok]

Daos are pretty much human in appearance. Maybe, depending on depiction, they have those smokey instead-of-legs thing that genies tend to have.

Glabrezu are upright and vaguely humanoid, if you ignore the secondary pair of arms growing from the chest.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm going to renew the suggestion of a previous edition Goristro updated by Rich. The monster dates to 1984, but updates to third edition stats came relatively late and may not have been seen by Rich when he made the decision.

If Rich updated it himself, a greater tanar'ri would have the 3.5 Tanar'ri subtype which grants telepathy and default tanar'ri speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic, but common is not a general trait for them.

GreyTraveller looked up the original publication and the creature has levitation and spider climb as at will spell-like abilities, teleport wihthoug error (once per day), and they have a stamp attack.

Unlike most fiends, they explicitely are born and bred, with parents.

Goristro will eat anything that moves.

"Gorislroi are vaguely reminiscent of giant bears, although their shoulder are broader, their visages a nightmarish cross beztween bison and human, and their hands and feet disproportionately large, splayed, and humanlike. Their arms are extremely long, like an ape's. Individual colors vary from dark brown through sickly greenish yellow to a peculiar purplish gray." This could generate a range of reactions with goblin children being impressed while humans respond more negatively to the specifically nightmarish appearance.

Greater teleport at will means it would not neccessarily be trapped in Durukan's dungeon.

Cons: Goristro are stupid, the version I can find specifies that they eat only meat (so possibly obligate carnivores), the adults are way too big (although size appears to vary by edition).

[LadyEowyn]

Rich has emphasized “big” and that the MITD’s size is not representative of its species (twice in canon, as noted in the starter post, and once in the calendars) as well as “eats a lot” (mentioned repeatedly in MITD’s case, and once about its father), so those are points in its favour.

[Precure]

Said source for Goristro:

Spoiler: Dragon Magazine

Show

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 7
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 20 (+6/die)
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: B, C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 & 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 12-30/12-30 & 5-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 60%
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil.
SIZE: L. (21-24 tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/ 16,200 + 35/hp

These huge demons are collectively known as geristroi. One can be found on nearly any plane of the Abyss, for they are adaptable and much desired by the rulers of the place to serve as engines of destruction. Demon lords and princes are able to command the goristroi and have them serving as guardians, enforcers, and so on. The hulking goristroi are too stupid and bestial to do more than carry out their orders.

The attack mode of these monsters consists of two clubbing smashes with their long and very powerful arms. Each is equal to a crushing blow, so material struck must be saved for. In addition, a stamping attack can be made against any opponent of 6' or less height which is within 10 of these brutes. They hurl boulders as do cloud giants (1"-24" range for 2-24 points of damage). Goristroi also have the following spell-like powers which they can employ one at a time, one per round, at will: detect illusion, detect invisibility, fear (as a wand. by gaze), gloom 60 r. (equals one-half darkness condition), levitation, spider climb, and teleport without error (once per day only).

Even the lowliest of goristroi can be harmed only by +1 or better magic weapons. All of them are immune to cold, fire, poison, and poison gas. They regenerate at the rate of 1 hit point per turn. They have both infravision and ultravision.

As noted in the list of statistics given above, goristroi receive 6 hit points per hit die in addition to whatever is rolled, giving each hit die a range of from 7-14 instead of the usual 1-8. Goristroi with 140-160 hit points are 21 tall and can only be hit by magic weapons of +1 or better. Those with 161-200 hit points are 22' tall, and also are hit only by +1 weapons. If hit points fall in the range of 201-240, the beast is 23' tall. and is hit only by +2 weapons or better. The largest goristroi have 241-280 hit points, are 24' tall, and are hit only by +3 weapons or better.

Goristroi can do siege damage to constructions and large objects in the same way that giants and golems can. Damage figures given below are per round of attack, with no other activity allowed to the goristro in that round.

Points of Damage Against
Wood 4
Earth 1
Soft Stone 3
Hard Rock 2
Bronze 1

As can be seen from the foregoing, the goristroi are major amongst their ilk because of their ability to absorb damage and to mete it out. They are stupid and otherwise limited in power, being unable even to gate in other demons. The vast majority (90%) of goristroi encountered will be in the service of some Abyssal ruler, blindly carrying out the duties assigned to them with complete fanaticism. There is never a question of retreat or morale when dealing with these brutes. They will always continue to follow their given commands until completion or death occurs.

Some symbol of servitude will be worn by goristroi ruled by a lord or prince, whether it be a collar, arm or wrist band, implanted symbol, or whatever. Such devices typically have the power to convey telepathic commands to the wearer as well as serve as tracking devices should the masters wish to know the whereabouts of their servants. Without direct command or supervision, goristroi tend to wander off on destructive rampages of their own direction and desire.

Goristroi are vaguely reminiscent of giant bears, although their shoulders are broader, their visages appearing to be a nightmarish cross between bison and human, and their hands and feet disproportionately large, splayed, and humanlike.

[Kish]

In addition to the stupidity, also seems to lack appropriate defenses. (Miko's weapons are very unlikely to be nonmagical, and Belkar's explicitly are not.)

[Crusher]

I'm going to renew the suggestion of a previous edition Goristro updated by Rich. The monster dates to 1984, but updates to third edition stats came relatively late and may not have been seen by Rich when he made the decision.

If Rich updated it himself, a greater tanar'ri would have the 3.5 Tanar'ri subtype which grants telepathy and default tanar'ri speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic, but common is not a general trait for them.

GreyTraveller looked up the original publication and the creature has levitation and spider climb as at will spell-like abilities, teleport wihthoug error (once per day), and they have a stamp attack.

Unlike most fiends, they explicitely are born and bred, with parents.

Goristro will eat anything that moves.

"Gorislroi are vaguely reminiscent of giant bears, although their shoulder are broader, their visages a nightmarish cross beztween bison and human, and their hands and feet disproportionately large, splayed, and humanlike. Their arms are extremely long, like an ape's. Individual colors vary from dark brown through sickly greenish yellow to a peculiar purplish gray." This could generate a range of reactions with goblin children being impressed while humans respond more negatively to the specifically nightmarish appearance.

Greater teleport at will means it would not neccessarily be trapped in Durukan's dungeon.

Cons: Goristro are stupid, the version I can find specifies that they eat only meat (so possibly obligate carnivores), the adults are way too big (although size appears to vary by edition).

Yeah, I LOVE the Goristro as a candidate. It hits a bunch of points well, including the earthquake which very few can answer. But its really dumb, doesn't have the defenses, and at least one version is oddly weak especially if you scale down the size. I just can't support it for FBS.

[Argis13]

Logic is solid, your guesses will be so noted. No take-backs.

Why would I take it back?

If you simply assume that Rich was kidding or being sarcastic when he said that "someone will figure it out eventually," they all fit perfectly. All the other guesses on your list have in-comic evidence against them. My guesses have no in-comic evidence, and therefore cannot be argued against.

In fact, Rich said "...Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster."

I don't understand why nobody else thinks the way that I do!

[Peelee]

All the other guesses on your list have in-comic evidence against them. My guesses have no in-comic evidence, and therefore cannot be argued against.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Argis13]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Never before has a forum moderator so tempted me to make a joke against the forum rules.

Puts serious hat on.

Nobody else seems interested... so below are what I see as the pros and cons for Turaglas (aka the Ebon Maw).

Please feel free to critique.

Yeah, this is about as good as the Zodar. A really good fit... except for one scene that disqualifies it. For this, it's the tower scene. There, MitD is hitting as lightly as as possible. That's the point. If he's not, then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game? For most candidates, it's not a problem. However, Turaglas has a mode where he hits lighter. If it is Turaglas playing the game, the point of the scene would mislead unless he was in that mode, and 28 doesn't cut it.

I can buy that See Invis. would make MitD have eye-shapes, like Sangwaan (though why that wasn't used as a clue when V was invisible right in front of MitD is sketchy) I can buy that some of the lore might be shifted around by the end of the story, with some uber-ritual that invoked the power of Turaglas permanently by sacrificing his mind, being an example of how nobody is destined to be evil, and it's a result of our choices.

I can't buy that Rich would just combine the two forms somehow, getting rid of the most distinctive feature of the monster, and expect us to conclude this is the statblock of the MitD from the evidence that he's given us. The #1 reason to use this monster is to have 2 forms, one big and superstong, one small and less strong, and then incoporate that into MitD's arc somehow. Giving the less strong form the superstrong strength means that Rich probably didn't pick this monster, which is why I don't buy the apologetics for the tower scene.

Overall, It's in the right place, proposed ideas, but I think that this post could push it into having a full list of pros/cons, like the Cherub, Aboleth Mage, or Zodar.

[Peelee]

Never before has a forum moderator so tempted me to make a joke against the forum rules.

I'm like 90% sure Roland would be angry with me if i started to chant "do it".

For reals though please don't do it.

[mashlagoo1982]

Yeah, this is about as good as the Zodar. A really good fit... except for one scene that disqualifies it. For this, it's the tower scene. There, MitD is hitting as lightly as as possible. That's the point. If he's not, then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game? For most candidates, it's not a problem. However, Turaglas has a mode where he hits lighter. If it is Turaglas playing the game, the point of the scene would mislead unless he was in that mode, and 28 doesn't cut it.

I can buy that See Invis. would make MitD have eye-shapes, like Sangwaan (though why that wasn't used as a clue when V was invisible right in front of MitD is sketchy) I can buy that some of the lore might be shifted around by the end of the story, with some uber-ritual that invoked the power of Turaglas permanently by sacrificing his mind, being an example of how nobody is destined to be evil, and it's a result of our choices.

I can't buy that Rich would just combine the two forms somehow, getting rid of the most distinctive feature of the monster, and expect us to conclude this is the statblock of the MitD from the evidence that he's given us. The #1 reason to use this monster is to have 2 forms, one big and superstong, one small and less strong, and then incoporate that into MitD's arc somehow. Giving the less strong form the superstrong strength means that Rich probably didn't pick this monster, which is why I don't buy the apologetics for the tower scene.

Overall, It's in the right place, proposed ideas, but I think that this post could push it into having a full list of pros/cons, like the Cherub, Aboleth Mage, or Zodar.

I can understand this position. The ability of Turaglas to qualify FBS depends on buying into the idea that its weaker form has access to the STR of its stronger form.

Another option would be to disagree with the estimation of 30 STR and accept that 28 STR is enough. Not going to argue that as IDC.

Turaglas is right on the line for me between the two categories. I do feel strongly at the very least that it deserves a longer list of pros and cons wherever it ends up.

I only felt compelled to write up what I did because I thought people may miss all the pros Turaglas actually has going for it. I had hoped another person would give it a close review, but it got stuck with me.

Edit: Would the feat Improved Overrun help it to qualify with STR? The idea I have is that Turaglas would be attacking with a method that cannot be avoided... like it is how Turaglas is trying to just tap Miko (not using mouth or claws). I feel there is a way it makes sense that Turaglas may use this while following the spirit of the game. It would have the unfortunate side effect for Miko that it grants a +4 STR when trying to knock down opponents.

Edit Edit: So, my interpretation of the tower scene is that MitD is trying to attack and deal the least amount of damage as possible. It has multiple options, but all are guaranteed to hit and almost all are guaranteed to actually cause damage. I don't know how Improved Overrun works, but it looks to be the only attack Turaglas can make that does not list any type of damage. If this is true, I could see it wrongly assuming this is its weak attack and then accidentally knocking Miko away with its now 32 STR. Like an overpowered body check. Can someone help me to understand how Improved Overrun works?

[Tubercular Ox]

the tower scene. There, MitD is hitting as lightly as as possible. That's the point. If he's not, then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game?

You just answered yourself.

For most candidates, it's not a problem. However, Turaglas has a mode where he hits lighter. If it is Turaglas playing the game, the point of the scene would mislead unless he was in that mode, and 28 doesn't cut it.

A monster with multiple attacks choosing its weakest attack is trying to hit lightly, so a candidate that needs an excuse to use its weakest attack gives the game a point. And since it is now following the rules of the game, Rich can fail to house rule a way of holding back and just let the monster do a basic attack. That must lower the strength requirement at least a little.

And I maintain that one of the purposes of the contest is to get Miko to stand still for a hit so Rich can end the fight quickly by knocking her away.

[Metastachydium]

Its hard to tell body language with plants

Are you telling me I spent all these hours making a quick and expressive half-turn for nothing?!

so I'm unsure about this but... you're kidding, right?

Yes and no, at any rate. On the one hand, comon sense screams "WILL YOU LOOK AT THAT THING, IT'S A HORRIBLE CANDIDATE", and common sense is very correct. On the other hand, it meets the current FBS criteria, and better than the Glabrezu (more appropriate attack type, better defenses, better explanation for the Circus scene if it turned into a weird Large Giant…).

All that combined, I'd say, makes for a quite punchy argument against the Glabrezu as well as food for thought on what FBS is and what it isn't good for. As I outlined, the 3.5 Dao has literally everything it takes to become an FBS candidate, or at the very least, far more than the Glabrezu with its "you need to assume Miko missed three times and then rolled poorly for damage twice" and "why would Demons look like what Demons look like in-universe, when they could look like what an out-of-universe layman would imagione they look like". It's also a pathetic weakling that could technically frustrate the efforts of the Order or Redcloak to defeat it, but only through running away and lingering on the Astral as a cloud of thin gas for a few months.

So,
1. if Glabrezu, then Dao; but not the opposite, which reflects poorly on the Glabrezu (REMOVE THE GLABREZU!); and
2. if we do not account for power level just because CR is generally an unreliable descriptor of it, the result is bound to be silly.

[Keltest]

1. if Glabrezu, then Dao; but not the opposite, which reflects poorly on the Glabrezu (REMOVE THE GLABREZU!); and
2. if we do not account for power level just because CR is generally an unreliable descriptor of it, the result is bound to be silly.

Edit: saw you specified 3.5 Dao. I don't have access to that one to comment, but they still look like regular people from my understanding, so I think they fail the circus scene.

As far as power level goes, if you think you have a useful way to measure it to fit into the Big Scenes requirements, I'm willing to give it a listen. Just keep in mind that if you put forth something like running a grudge match between the candidate and whatever the Geekery thread has for Redcloak, Grey Wolf will probably veto it unless youre willing to run that grudge match yourself every time it comes up.

[Metastachydium]

Edit: saw you specified 3.5 Dao. I don't have access to that one to comment, but they still look like regular people from my understanding, so I think they fail the circus scene.

As far as power level goes, if you think you have a useful way to measure it to fit into the Big Scenes requirements, I'm willing to give it a listen. Just keep in mind that if you put forth something like running a grudge match between the candidate and whatever the Geekery thread has for Redcloak, Grey Wolf will probably veto it unless youre willing to run that grudge match yourself every time it comes up.

I just checked the FBS criteria again. It includes the following:

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)

Looking at Section 2c, I couldn't not notice what's immediately below Categories: Challenge Rating. It goes

• Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
• See also lothos' analysis of MitD's CR

It is a wording permissive enough to allow for common sense; but it locks things like "CR 12 bruiser" straight out. What would it break to include in the list of criteria a reference to Section 2c/Challenge Rating, in the same vein as Section 2c/Categories is referenced?

[Peelee]

And I maintain that one of the purposes of the contest is to get Miko to stand still for a hit so Rich can end the fight quickly by knocking her away.

Why would the author, who controls whether or not anyone gets hit, need her to stay still?

[Keltest]

I just checked the FBS criteria again. It includes the following:


Looking at Section 2c, I couldn't not notice what's immediately below Categories: Challenge Rating. It goes


It is a wording permissive enough to allow for common sense; but it locks things like "CR 12 bruiser" straight out. What would it break to include in the list of criteria a reference to Section 2c/Challenge Rating, in the same vein as Section 2c/Categories is referenced?

Well first off, anything from outside of D&D doesn't actually have a Challenge Rating to begin with, so that makes having a requirement for it pretty unhelpful. Beyond that, there are the notorious issues CR has with actually accurately representing the difficulty of a monster or encounter, IE its bad at the one, specific job it has, so I would be hesitant to rely on it to do that job for us.

Basically, I don't think adding a CR requirement would actually be helpful. I think there is merit in establishing a power baseline in principle, but I personally can't think of a way to do that which is both reliable and fast.

[Metastachydium]

Well first off, anything from outside of D&D doesn't actually have a Challenge Rating to begin with, so that makes having a requirement for it pretty unhelpful. Beyond that, there are the notorious issues CR has with actually accurately representing the difficulty of a monster or encounter, IE its bad at the one, specific job it has, so I would be hesitant to rely on it to do that job for us.

While that is entirely fair, used as a rule of thumb (as 2c explicitly puts it) it can help throw out the outright silly things, such as a particular CR 13 beatstick with a few SLAs soloing a level 15+ party with two full casters. So it's not really a purely numerical thing, let alone an absolute. You check the CR, if it looks on the low side, you check for anything that could plausibly offset the gap (all the other criteria ask for much the same: plausible explanations, rather than "I ran 150 deathmatches and it's statistically impossible" certainties); if there's nothing like that, it's probably not a good candidate.

[Keltest]

While that is entirely fair, used as a rule of thumb (as 2c explicitly puts it) it can help throw out the outright silly things, such as a particular CR 13 beatstick with a few SLAs soloing a level 15+ party with two full casters. So it's not really a purely numerical thing, let alone an absolute. You check the CR, if it looks on the low side, you check for anything that could plausibly offset the gap (all the other criteria ask for much the same: plausible explanations, rather than "I ran 150 deathmatches and it's statistically impossible" certainties); if there's nothing like that, it's probably not a good candidate.

Let me put it this way. I don't think the FBS list should have rules of thumb. It should just have rules. If a creature can get into the FBS list, that means it matches the hard(ish) data we have on the MITD's capabilities. If you think its CR is too low for an otherwise good candidate, you are free to use that information when making your own judgement, but we don't actually have anything in comic that talks about his CR. Besides which, even your proposed method there ends up ignoring the CR as an actual filter, since you just choose to ignore it if it isn't telling you what you would expect, so why even use it?


On a semi-related note, I should point out that the Order was not level 15+ when it was indicated that the MITD could solo them, and such a confrontation is extremely unlikely at this point due to character development. Which brings us back to the lack of hard data on his likely CR, if he has one.

[Tzardok]

Edit: Would the feat Improved Overrun help it to qualify with STR? The idea I have is that Turaglas would be attacking with a method that cannot be avoided... like it is how Turaglas is trying to just tap Miko (not using mouth or claws). I feel there is a way it makes sense that Turaglas may use this while following the spirit of the game. It would have the unfortunate side effect for Miko that it grants a +4 STR when trying to knock down opponents.

Edit Edit: So, my interpretation of the tower scene is that MitD is trying to attack and deal the least amount of damage as possible. It has multiple options, but all are guaranteed to hit and almost all are guaranteed to actually cause damage. I don't know how Improved Overrun works, but it looks to be the only attack Turaglas can make that does not list any type of damage. If this is true, I could see it wrongly assuming this is its weak attack and then accidentally knocking Miko away with its now 32 STR. Like an overpowered body check. Can someone help me to understand how Improved Overrun works?

Overrun is a combat maneuver where you try to "trample" opponents in your way into the ground. It is for example used to break through a line of opponents blocking your path. The overrun opponents have the choice between going out of your way or making attacks of opportunity against you, in which case they have to take the "trample" and are possibly knocked prone. Improved Overrun simply takes the choice to evade away from them.

As the MitD isn't actually moving and Miko flies away instead of being thrown to the ground, I'm pretty sure that there's no overrunning happening here.

[mashlagoo1982]

Overrun is a combat maneuver where you try to "trample" opponents in your way into the ground. It is for example used to break through a line of opponents blocking your path. The overrun opponents have the choice between going out of your way or making attacks of opportunity against you, in which case they have to take the "trample" and are possibly knocked prone. Improved Overrun simply takes the choice to evade away from them.

As the MitD isn't actually moving and Miko flies away instead of being thrown to the ground, I'm pretty sure that there's no overrunning happening here.

Actually, MitD does it twice. So, in theory, it could overrun Miko and then overrun Windstriker to return to about roughly where it started.

Throwing to the ground vs thrown into a wall and sent flying is not a question I would be willing to answer with a creature whom has a STR of 32 in this scenario.

EDIT: Does overrun not allow targets to be pushed into walls or other obstacles? I seem to remember large oozes having similar abilities where they could push targets against tunnel walls in tight corridors. Is this a different ability?

[Tzardok]

Actually, MitD does it twice. So, in theory, it could overrun Miko and then overrun Windstriker to return to about roughly where it started.

Throwing to the ground vs thrown into a wall and sent flying is not a question I would be willing to answer with a creature whom has a STR of 32 in this scenario.

In that case the second overrun would go into the other direction and get Windstriker fly away from Miko.

It also couldn't have overrun them both with a single action, for them they would've flown at the same time, not one after the other.

[mashlagoo1982]

It also couldn't have overrun them both with a single action, for them they would've flown at the same time, not one after the other.

I was thinking it would be two separate overrun actions. Else, MitD would need to be shown at the opposite side of wall outlines in the comic and the timing probably wouldn't work.

In that case the second overrun would go into the other direction and get Windstriker fly away from Miko.

I attribute this to comedic punchline and Miko getting what she deserves.

[b_jonas]

Metastachydium: Rich's comment in the War & XPs says that he did the tower scene so that the monster is shows to be a challenge for the party, which means when Haley and Belkar meets him to retrieve Roy's body. Then Belkar's attacks seem to do no damage, and the monster shouts and makes the earth crack, and Haley has to pull Roy's body out of a crack with a grappling hook. I think we deliberately didn't put the earthquake in as a separate FBS criteria because almost no monsters would remain if we did. But if we want to use this to modify the FBS criteria, then let's just put in the earthquake and the shout, rather than some arbitrary other criteria about how strong the monster is.

[Metastachydium]

Let me put it this way. I don't think the FBS list should have rules of thumb. It should just have rules.

Half its current rules are very vague, though. "Plausible explanation" this and "plausible explanation" that. No hard benchmarks, no exact measures or guidelines.

On a semi-related note, I should point out that the Order was not level 15+ when it was indicated that the MITD could solo them, and such a confrontation is extremely unlikely at this point due to character development. Which brings us back to the lack of hard data on his likely CR, if he has one.

Metastachydium: Rich's comment in the War & XPs says that he did the tower scene so that the monster is shows to be a challenge for the party, which means when Haley and Belkar meets him to retrieve Roy's body. Then Belkar's attacks seem to do no damage, and the monster shouts and makes the earth crack, and Haley has to pull Roy's body out of a crack with a grappling hook. I think we deliberately didn't put the earthquake in as a separate FBS criteria because almost no monsters would remain if we did. But if we want to use this to modify the FBS criteria, then let's just put in the earthquake and the shout, rather than some arbitrary other criteria about how strong the monster is.

The shout doesn't seem to do damage or anything, whereas the earthquake would literally disqualify all FBS creatures.

At any rate, then, for excrement and merriment, I hereby propose that the Dao be added to the FBS list, on account of meeting all the criteria specified in Section 3a, as argued, in detail, in the attached post.

[Ruck]

You just answered yourself.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the Tower Scene is just a lie and MitD wasn't hitting as lightly as possible?

I think we deliberately didn't put the earthquake in as a separate FBS criteria because almost no monsters would remain if we did.

I think it has more to do with that we don't know how the earthquake was caused. It's indicated MitD did it by simply stomping the ground, which if so, would indicate incredible strength-- which we already have the Tower scene to cover. If it's some other power, we don't know what it is.

[Keltest]

In 3.5, can you end a spell like gaseous form before its duration without using dispel magic or similar? Because otherwise Gaseous Form wouldn't work for the Tower scene, since the MITD would not be able to attack afterwards.

[Metastachydium]

In 3.5, can you end a spell like gaseous form before its duration without using dispel magic or similar? Because otherwise Gaseous Form wouldn't work for the Tower scene, since the MITD would not be able to attack afterwards.

1. Yes, stuff can just be dismissed by the caster/whoever produced the effect, any time; and
2. we have actually seen something like that happen with Gaseous Form in particular.

[Keltest]

1. Yes, stuff can just be dismissed by the caster/whoever produced the effect, any time; and
2. we have actually seen something like that happen with Gaseous Form in particular.

Vampires don't use a spell, they just have an ability to change forms whenever they want and for as long as they want.

[Metastachydium]

Vampires don't use a spell, they just have an ability to change forms whenever they want and for as long as they want.

Spells and SLAs can also be dismissed by the caster anytime. Doesn't provoke either. It has an action cost, but nothing MitD couldn't squeeze in between being attacked and attacking.