Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXX

[loky1109]

Answers.

Spoiler: Navtej

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Thirdly: it's unlikely to make a difference in the rankings, but I don't think the 'still' in Mystic Union means what you think it means. Yes, 'still' can mean 'now, like in the past', in which case it's indeterminate what happens if things weren't that way in the past. But the word can also be used in the sense of 'nevertheless', in which case it wouldn't be making any presumptions about your ability to get raised before gaining Mystic Union and would work faultlessly for us. It's worth considering!

I see your point, but don't agree. One thing if there is ambiguous wording and ambiguous intention, but here I see clear intention and it isn't in your favour.

No changes.

Spoiler: Ketos

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You need to have "Ability to cast six spells from the school of transmutation." to qualify for Shaper of Form. I didn't see any in your spell table (-0.5).
- Paladin spell list has significantly more than 6 level 1 transmutation spells. I checked this before submitting.

To be fair I checked this, too. But I didn't see any mention of this in your entry and decide to test you. +0.5 in Elegance.

Gate - You don't have it (-0).
- The transport version of gate is available to Shadowcraft Mage.

Doesn't matter. You don't have Gate ability from SI. I couldn't give you any points in Use of Secret Ingredient section for something that does not belong to SI.

Earth Spell + Shadowcraft Mage isn't very innovative <snip> (-0.25).
- True, I could argue, however, that Earth Spell fixing Divine Crusader's caster level is something new.

I see your point, but I already gave Earth Spell all love that I have in Power section.

Change: Elegance - 3.25; Total - 13.9

Spoiler: Pyotr Icevein

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Regarding the use of the secret ingredient, you gave me a half point for the additional domain, citing the granted ability of the boost in caster level as only a minor benefit, but above in the elegance section you acknowledge that my point in gaining the new domain was to allow me to swap out the granted power for a fighter bonus feat via Ordained Champion level 1. I feel like the synergy between the two classes at least merits a comment if not a change in score."

This sounds fair. Add +0.1 in UoSI for combo.

Change: UoSI - 2; Total - 13

Spoiler: Echo

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My best guess is that you read me as saying that Echo casts a spell, then uses wild shape to deal with the consequences - which can't be done with an instantaneous spell. But like, no, Echo wouldn't waste turns like that. She just fights in wild shape already, like most wild shape users. She has natural spell (like I mention in the build, Undead Wild Shape is wild shape, and can use the feat), she casts the spells while undead. No issues.

Look. Corruption Cost is spell component.

To cast a spell, you must have or be able to perform the components the spell requires. If you can’t provide the components that a spell’s description details, you can’t cast that spell.

I see how you could bypass Corruption Cost for spell with duration different from Instantaneous - really nobody could be sure will he be able to pay cost a few rounds later or not. I could even buy you already are in undead form - it's dismissable, but when we have Instantaneous duration you should provide all components in the moment when you cast spell - you don't have time lag between casting and paying. And you have to have ability "to be able to perform" Corruption Cost component at this moment to cast spell.
No change.

Rite of assumption: I understand that I didn't specifically note it, but I did source spellscale - it's under that section, so I feel like the full 0.25 is a tiny bit harsh.

It's one short paragraph somewhere in the 16 pages with different name and it isn't presented in the table of contents. If you only give me correct name - I'd didn't give you penalty. But I needed to invest some time to found it. I wasn't even sure it is in the Races of the Dragon, if you said me at least this I'd not penalized you either.
It maybe looks harsh, but it's about how easy judging was.

Stance: so, RAI is very clear to me that this is descriptive rather than prescriptive. Luckily, RAW is quite clear as well: I did not begin play as a warblade, so this doesn't apply to me. Both clear RAI and blind RAW say I get to take my stance.

For me RAI is also clear, but this is opposite clearness. And if we are talking about RAW... Well, you didn't begin play as a warblade, so you didn't get any stances at all. See?

This applies to Larry the swordsage too. If you disagree here, you should still reduce his penalty to match mine, I think; right now, he's getting penalized more harshly than me for the same "mistake", and that's unfair. He might depose me for bronze for this dispute, but such is life.

I appreciate this. You're true. I'll change this.

I feel that a synergy I was pretty proud of (and bragged about in the build) went unnoticed here. The tiny blighter spell list is very focused on undead minionmancy, with desecrate, unhallow, inflict spells, and command undead. My undeath gifts are hugely supported by these spells, and were picked specifically because I'm playing a blighter, not just because they're great picks. If blighter had different spells, I would've gone for different gifts. Others got credit for synergistic combos with their gifts, and I feel that my very deliberate choices here were treated as obvious power grabs and nothing more.

This sounds fair. I'll give you +0.4 - +0.2 per a gift.

armor proficiency: I'm a divine caster, I call out a wildling clasp for my armor, I can manufacture it through wish. How am I not using my proficiency here?

Okay, I see. Well, you got only Heavy Prof (you already had others), so I give you +0.05 here.

Change: UoSI - 4.4; Total - 15.4

Spoiler: Larry

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Remove excessive penalty for Assassin’s Stance via 1-level Swordsage dip +0.25 in Elegance.
Change: Elegance - 4; Total - 15.05

Judging posts and table are updated.

[H_H_F_F]

Thanks for the update, loky.

[The Viscount]

If there are no further disputes, we will have the reveal and begin the next round in 24 hours.

[quetzalcoatl5]

No further disputes.

[Rebel7284]

Thanks to loky and Viscount for judging and organizing respectively!
No disputes here.

[Inevitability]

No disputes!

[Battlechaser]

No disputes

[The Viscount]

I laughed at loud at soulborn being considered an expected entry because I'm the one making it. I don't know if I should be thankful the meme didn't start when I was cooking with Marshal and Savant, classes I actually like.

It's time for the reveal!

#	Name	Alignment / Race	Class Levels	Deity	Chef	loky1109	Total	Place
1	Jae Wes	LN Lesser Aasimar	Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Divine Agent 10/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5	Wee Jas	Paragon	13.75	13.75	6th
2	Echo, part 2	TN→NE Incarnate Construct Dustform Nymph→Spellscale	Druid 1/Blighter 4/Warblade 1/Divine Agent 10/Nature's Warrior 5	Velsharoon	H_H_F_F	15.40	15.40	3rd
3	Navtej	CE→NG Abyssal Skulker	Brahmin 3/Fiend of Possession 1/Divine Agent 10/Fiend of Blasphemy 2	Lakshmi	Inevitability	17.00	17.00	2nd
4	Schroedinger's Tibbit	TN Tibbit	Sha’ir 6/Malconvoker 4/Divine agent 10	Schrödinger	Battlechaser	12.35	12.35	9th
5	Larry	TN Tibbit	Invisible Fist Monk 2/Shaman 4/Sacred Fist 3/Swordsage 1/Divine Agent 10	Cat Lord	Paragon	15.05	15.05	4th
6	Iago	CE Major Silver Dragon Bloodline Primordial Half-Giant	Duskblade 1/Warblade 1/Death Delver 3/Divine Agent 10/Contemplative 1	Beshaba	WhamBamSam	12.70	12.70	8th
7	Ghrond Ironhand	CE Human	Paladin of Slaughter 4/Divine Agent 10/Warblade 6	Erythnul	Tohron	10.35	10.35	10th
8	Piotyr Icevein	LG Neanderthal	Favored Enemy Paladin 2/Cleric 3/Divine Agent 10/Ordained Champion 5	Heironeous	quetzalcoatl5	13.00	13.00	7th
9	Ketos	NG Anthopomorphic Ballen Whale → Tibbit	Drow Fighter 1/Stoneblessed 3/Pious Templar 1/Divine Crusader 1/Ruathar 1/Divine Agent 9/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Shaper of Form 1	Garl Glittergold	Rebel7284	13.90	13.90	5th
10	Snow	CG Illumian	Planar Paladin of Freedom 4/Divine Agent 10/Thaumaturgist 4/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Crusader 1	Tuilviel Glithien	Zaq	17.40	17.40	1st
11	Francis Dolarhyde, Chrysalis of Potency	CE Fireblood Dwarf	Dragonscale Husk Skilled City Dweller Soulborn 8/Skilled City Dweller Divine Crusader 2/Dragonscale Husk Divine Agent 10	Garyx	The Viscount	13.75	13.75	N/A

Congratulations to everyone for an excellent round, and special thanks to our judge loky!

Next round up shortly.

[H_H_F_F]

Congratulations, guys! Supremely fun round. I'm not the biggest fan of my entry this round, since I felt like I didn't manage to squeeze anything but raw power from the class. The entry method was fun, I think - I've had it ready to go for an appropriate SI for a while, and this one seemed good. I didn't feel like I was focused enough on what the SI had to offer except free wishes, but I'm glad the crowd seemed to enjoy the entry

Loky, thanks for judging! I still disagree with you about corrupt spells and 1st level stance, but we'll discuss it another time.

Thank you all for participating - and as always, thanks to our chair! See y'all next round!

[Rebel7284]

This is my very first competition of this kind, so I am perfectly happy with 5th place.
Now if I only noticed the whole "your domain" rather than "deity's domain" part of Godly Gift! Oh well!

[Inevitability]

Congratulations to Zaq and H_H_F_F for the medal, to WhamBamSam for getting HM, and to everyone else for participating!

My overall thoughts on this round are a mixed bag: I think Divine Agent's quality as an ingredient really suffered from it having an obvious path to power on one count (Heretic of the Faith Envy domain) and such useless class features on all others. There were builds are like and didn't, of course - same as every round, but I wasn't really wowed by some completely unforeseen way of squeezing power out of the class, the way you saw with Pelor's Divine Sun in the Shadowspy round or... basically every build in the Demonologist round. Still, I had fun building Navtej, and I hope the other builders had fun with their own creations: see you in the next one!

[Battlechaser]

Congrats guys!

[Inevitability]

Now that the Monster Mash reveal is up, I do have a question.

H_H_F_F and Rebel7284, were either of your builds influenced by Things Lost, Things Gained? It got revealed around the time I imagine people were building for iron chef, and it used some tricks (ex-nymph into blighter, shaper of form) that I haven't really seen around a lot until suddenly they showed up in this competition too.

To be clear, I'm curious, nothing more! I'm just wondering if it's all a big coincidence or something more.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't really look at Monster Mash usually, so I can't say it has. I'll definitely read the build when I have a free moment, though!