Concerning Elves

[RedMage125]

So physical and mental deterioration isn’t even a thing in 5e; why even worry about it?

But learning new stuff is! So elves should, therefore, have plenty to show for their 80+ extra years of existence and life experiences.

Oh, so you just want to focus on 5e?

Then how about you address that, according to MToF, elves spend their first decade or two only experiencing memories from past lives, not their current one. And their culture encourages them to explore these memories and talk with their peers about them.

Sometime after they have their first Trance that they experience memories of their waking life, they are considered adolescent. And around the 1st century mark, they stop having those past life memories entirely, becoming an adult, and start to "strive to engage with the world" (page 38). The end of this section clarified that it is during adulthood that elves "become accomplished in many endeavors", and talks about elves having skills like being a vintner, or creating wood carvings.

So...apparently, they don't even start accumulating any actual skills or proficiencies until after the 100 year mark. Which, like I have been saying, is giving them about the same amount of time as a human spent on whatever occupation or set of skills becomes their background and class.

[RSP]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

Learning takes effort.

Indeed learning takes effort. But there is certainly more opportunity to learn if you have 20 more years to do so.

Again, the position I’ve stated is “due to the extra 80+ years, the player is forced into a backstory that explains why the PC isn’t more experienced/skilled etc.

Yes, you can come up with backstories that explain why a 120 year old is not more experienced than a 20 year old; such as they were in a magical coma for 100 years; but that being required, is part of the issue from importing Tolkien elves to D&D.

[Sorinth]

Indeed learning takes effort. But there is certainly more opportunity to learn if you have 20 more years to do so.

Again, the position I’ve stated is “due to the extra 80+ years, the player is forced into a backstory that explains why the PC isn’t more experienced/skilled etc.

Yes, you can come up with backstories that explain why a 120 year old is not more experienced than a 20 year old; such as they were in a magical coma for 100 years; but that being required, is part of the issue from importing Tolkien elves to D&D.

But judging from the real world the vast majority of people don't use that opportunity. Elves probably have even less incentive to buckle down and put in that work because they have so much time.

[Bohandas]

Learning takes effort.

Unless you have Scholar's touch prepared

[RSP]

Then how about you address that, according to MToF, elves spend their first decade or two only experiencing memories from past lives, not their current one. And their culture encourages them to explore these memories and talk with their peers about them.

MToF offers one possible, partial explanation, of why elves might be less experienced than what you’d expect from a 100 year old creature, if you have it and so choose to use that explanation? Are players not allowed to play 20 year old elves? 50 year olds? Do they not have any skills if they play an elf less than 120 years old? Does adolescence expand to cover 300 years if you choose to play a 300-year old elf?

It also, apparently doesn’t cover what you think it does. Based off what you’ve written, you’ve made a GIANT leap from “they are adolescents for 20 years” and “don’t accumulate skills until after the 100 year mark”.

You accumulate skills as an adolescent, in fact, the period from puberty to “adulthood” might be the period in our lives when we learn the most. If your argument is elves have 20 years of what Humans experience between 12-18 years old; I’d say it’s only helping my argument.

By all means, have your elven PC’s backstory be “they remember nothing until they reached 100 years old”, but it’s not disproving anything I’ve posted: you’re still having coming up with a backstory to explain why your PC is no less experienced than a 20 year old (not to mention a 2-year old), because of the reliance of Tolkien’s elves and their long lives.

And to anyone who doesn’t follow that, like anyone going by the PHB, they’re correct too!

But judging from the real world the vast majority of people don't use that opportunity. Elves probably have even less incentive to buckle down and put in that work because they have so much time.

Says who? From the PHB: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring
on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

[Sorinth]

Says who? From the PHB: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring
on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

The key being when pursuing a goal. Your proposing that they are never not pursuing a goal which I think is very unlikely.

[Slipjig]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

Learning takes effort.

We sort of covered this earlier in the thread. The learning curve on almost every profession flattens out dramatically after a few years unless you are actively seeking out new techniques. Running through a sword form 10,000 times may give you mastery of that form (and should take a few hours a day for a year). But doing that form 1,000,000 times over the course of a century isn't going to lead to much further improvement (though doing it a few times a week will keep you from losing the skill). And if you are talking about banging out horseshoes as a blacksmith, your 1,000,000th horseshoe is probably no better than your 1,000th.

Hmm, I'd never seen that SAC. I'm pretty sure the PHB errata still specifically states that Elves CANNOT complete a Long Rest in four hours (and that they can't stand watch for more than two hours in that period without voiding the Long Rest). But unless the entire party is made up of elves, it's not usually going to be relevant in-game.

[Bohandas]

Looking at the real world is it even true that most 50 year olds have more skills then a 30 year old? Because I'm not sure that's at all true. Just because an older person had the time to become proficient in additional tools/instruments/languages doesn't mean most will actually use that time to learn stuff.

I would expect them to have more different skills, even if not necessarily better mastery of any existing skill

[Sorinth]

I would expect them to have more different skills, even if not necessarily better mastery of any existing skill

But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

[RSP]

The key being when pursuing a goal. Your proposing that they are never not pursuing a goal which I think is very unlikely.

When did I ever propose that??? I stated someone with 100+ years more life experience should have something to show for that.

I stated Elves have 4 extra hours of every day to do stuff, followed by 4 hours where they meditate on the day.

Where, in any post on this thread did I propose Elves “are never not pursuing a goal”?

Hmm, I'd never seen that SAC. I'm pretty sure the PHB errata still specifically states that Elves CANNOT complete a Long Rest in four hours (and that they can't stand watch for more than two hours in that period without voiding the Long Rest). But unless the entire party is made up of elves, it's not usually going to be relevant in-game.

I quoted the rule with the SAC. If you want to assume the quote is wrong, go for it, but it’s from the Basic Rules.

But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

If you’re a farmer for five years, you’ll run through five years of farm work, learning the day to day stuff.

If you’re a farmer for 10 years you’ll probably see one of some catastrophe or other, be it drought, storms damaging harvests, insect or disease issues.

If you’re a farmer for 100 years, you’ve seen that all multiple times, and learned from each instance.

That doesn’t even account for everything else you do including a hundred years of selling your harvest, including haggling and knowing the market, when to hold off or when to sell right away.

What books did you read over 100 years? What occurred in those 100 years that may be considered History to a 20 year old, that you lived through?

Anyone on this thread can only imagine what one could experience as a 20-year old for 100 years. Hand waiving it as “it’s probably the same as anyone living just 20 years” isn’t accurate; or anything close to having a good imagination.

[Bohandas]

But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

Who said anything about putting in effort? I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

[RSP]

Who said anything about putting in effort? I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

Not to mention just everything a person will experience over that time. I’ve learned a ridiculous amount just reading the news everyday, and that isn’t anything other than maybe 10 minutes a day.

Exposure to events, even in day-to-day life, is valuable. And elves have a ton more of that than humans or kobolds.

[Sorinth]

Who said anything about putting in effort? I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

But casually playing around with something doesn't sound like proficiency. Even if you are doing something for a long time doesn't mean you will become good enough to be considered D&D proficient in a skill. You can casually play around with poetry for 20 years but it doesn't mean you will become a good poet. You might be better then when you first started but even that's not a given. And given that D&D skill proficiencies are very generic instead of specific saying that because you've casually written poetry for 20 years including doing poetry readings with your friends that you should have proficiency in Performance which then is broadly applicable to all sorts of non-poetry reading type stuff.

Not to mention just everything a person will experience over that time. I’ve learned a ridiculous amount just reading the news everyday, and that isn’t anything other than maybe 10 minutes a day.

Exposure to events, even in day-to-day life, is valuable. And elves have a ton more of that than humans or kobolds.

It can be valuable sure, it doesn't automatically mean it is though. A lot of exposure/life experiences will lead someone to believe the wrong things, just look at Covid.

But more importantly you learning a lot of stuff by reading the news might give you a leg up on someone who doesn't read the news but that doesn't mean proficiency. It seems like your threshold for gaining proficiency is to be better then someone who is bad or knows nothing about the thing and I can't buy that. If the average person can't juggle at all, and I can juggle 3 balls for about 5-10s before dropping things does that mean I should be proficient in juggling? Hey I'm better then the average person that can't juggle at all right? To me the idea of being proficient in juggling means someone who can juggle 3 balls for as long as they want and has a reasonable chance at the harder juggling things.

[RSP]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

It also doesn’t explain the 2-year, 20-year, 100+-year difference problem. Why aren’t Humans and Kobolds equally unmotivated and lazy, and therefore still have less ability than the 100+ lives elf?

[Segev]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

It also doesn’t explain the 2-year, 20-year, 100+-year difference problem. Why aren’t Humans and Kobolds equally unmotivated and lazy, and therefore still have less ability than the 100+ lives elf?

Actually, the idea that they are mostly working for day-to-day survival is probably TOO realistic for most people's preferred fantasy, but could explain why elven farmers aren't learning to be masters of fifty different trades: they are spending all day farming so they don't starve!

[Bundin]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

It also doesn’t explain the 2-year, 20-year, 100+-year difference problem. Why aren’t Humans and Kobolds equally unmotivated and lazy, and therefore still have less ability than the 100+ lives elf?

The elfs don't really specialise or learn useful adventury skills for decades. Without organised education, and with society not expecting them to in the first 100 years (there's plenty of time after, so sure, take a gap century). Amount of practical things learned in that time is still >> 0: the skill/tool proficiencies, the above average ability scores when compared to commoners, the proficiency bonus, the level 1 class features.

Humans don't get a gap century. Maybe a gap year, but time is short so you better keep moving because you'll need to get your situation in order before mum and dad stop feeding you because they are dead. They learn the same in a much shorter time frame because society makes them.

Real life basis for the above: when it's up to society, age is but a number. During the industrial revolution, many 5(!)-12 year olds were (mostly un)skilled workers in factories, mines and the like. Small children very conveniently fit in narrow spaces/tunnels, nice! Today's slackers aren't earning until they're (on average) 20 or so, over three times the age of that productive member of society in 1812. In the UK, it took until 1819 to ban labour for the under-9. Over 9, 12 hours per day was still ok though.

Are today's chilldren and adolescents lazy bums? Definitely not all of them. Expectations changed. Can't compare by applying 1812 norms to 2024. Maybe also don't apply human sentiment to Elf youngsters :)

[Bohandas]

Two things: assuming no one wants to work/learn is a) just another run around to try and explain why Elves don’t know more despite all their extra time, and b) against RAW: “When pursuing a goal, however, whether adventuring on a mission or learning a new skill or art, elves can be focused and relentless.”

Further, PCs are supposed to exceptional. If all elves have to lazy and unmotivated, that, to me, goes against being “exceptional”.

Maybe PC elves are exceptionally lazy and everyone else is higher level?

The elfs don't really specialise or learn useful adventury skills for decades. Without organised education, and with society not expecting them to in the first 100 years (there's plenty of time after, so sure, take a gap century). Amount of practical things learned in that time is still >> 0: the skill/tool proficiencies, the above average ability scores when compared to commoners, the proficiency bonus, the level 1 class features.

Humans don't get a gap century. Maybe a gap year, but time is short so you better keep moving because you'll need to get your situation in order before mum and dad stop feeding you because they are dead. They learn the same in a much shorter time frame because society makes them.

Real life basis for the above: when it's up to society, age is but a number. During the industrial revolution, many 5(!)-12 year olds were (mostly un)skilled workers in factories, mines and the like. Small children very conveniently fit in narrow spaces/tunnels, nice! Today's slackers aren't earning until they're (on average) 20 or so, over three times the age of that productive member of society in 1812. In the UK, it took until 1819 to ban labour for the under-9. Over 9, 12 hours per day was still ok though.

Are today's chilldren and adolescents lazy bums? Definitely not all of them. Expectations changed. Can't compare by applying 1812 norms to 2024. Maybe also don't apply human sentiment to Elf youngsters :)

Today's children know significantly more than the children of 1812 who were diminished by unskilled manual work, malnutrition, and no education, and nothing to look at but grey walls

EDIT:
Possibly relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

[Sorinth]

Today's children know significantly more than the children of 1812 who were diminished by unskilled manual work, malnutrition, and no education, and nothing to look at but grey walls

Sure they know significantly more stuff but does that stuff actually translate into more skills? Like seriously what D&D skill proficiencies are considered standard for the average high school graduate? Like sure todays kids probably know more about Nature and History since they've taken classes on it and the 1800s kids didn't. But I wouldn't consider today's average HS student to be proficient in either. Knowing more then nothing doesn't equate to proficiency.

[Bundin]

Today's children know significantly more than the children of 1812 who were diminished by unskilled manual work, malnutrition, and no education, and nothing to look at but grey walls

EDIT:
Possibly relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

I completely agree with you.

However, my point was that one cannot compare completely different populations, like RL humans in 1812 and in 2024. They live completely different lives, in completely different environments, societies, and structures. I only mentioned this to show that one cannot usually measure completely populations against the same yardstick. To me, that's the issue with most of the discussion in this topic: dnd humans are not dnd elfs, even if they (also) live in the same cities, just like 1812 isn't 2024.

[Tanarii]

It does, if you need an excuse for why every single PC is a 100 yo and has the smae experience as a 20 yo one, then its better to accept it doesn't make sense and we just roll with it because its a game.

But the relevant point here is you don't start with a 100 year old elf. You start at 20. If you do start at 100, it's one that's going to be seen as a still acting like a child that hasn't already gotten wild adventuring out of their system, not an adult ready to settle down. That could easily also mean being a social pariah.

If you start as a level 1 100 year old elf, that's the equivalent as starting as a level 1 31 year old human. Except with added social hang-ups. Yes, in that case you'll also need to explain why they got started later in life.

But why? Most people won't spend the time and/or put in the effort to become proficient in something new even if they have time to do so. Why do we expect elves to be different?

Oof, that's too on point.

[KorvinStarmast]

So then 5e elves should have higher stat bonuses is the answer?

The half elves get that. High elves get a cantrip regardless of class chosen.

I’m sure that explanation just doesn’t work. You’re saying Elves are just incompetent for hundreds of years.

Nah, just interested in stuff that has nothing to do with adventuring.

What other skills should they have for the other +70…?

Tantric sexual techniques, and elf joyoga, but since the game is not marketed "adult only" that doesn't get a proficiency slot...and where did you think that all of those half elves came from, anyway?

that’s still 25% more awake/learning/experiencing life time for Elves over Humans (and others).

They may spend it playing league of legends, or engaging in self-pleasure of any other sort.

It absolutely doesn't. My mother had to learn Russian when she was studying, like everyone here did back then, and had to be fluent to get a degree. She even visited and spent some time in Soviet Union. After she didn't need it for 35+ years since we've got rid of our Soviet overlords, she can't string a sentence together, or even read cirilllic alphabet.

I am surprised at the Cyrillic loss. But as to language profiency loss, the Spanish and Italian I had has been lost due to a lack of use. I still have some German, because I began to learn it as a child when we lived in Germany.

Agree with your programming point. It's been so long since I wrote anything I'd need to be considered a total noob were I to try and start again. (Well, I can flow chart since I still use that skill) .

I'd like to point out that 100 years old human has the exact same physical stats (or possibly better, if he's a PC and gained few ASI in between) he had when he was 20.

But most of them have been dead for a while, since the game advises us that human life span usually goes to about 80.

Another good example of losing knowledge is academic subjects. When I finished AP US History 25+ years ago, I could rattle off relevant details about the administration of every US President.

If I took the SAT's right now I'd probably embarrass myself.

Should dwarves and halflings also have more skills or the like?

Dwarves do, halflings have little to no lore on talent besides burglary, throwing rocks, and farming. May as well retire them from the game.

I would expect them to have more different skills, even if not necessarily better mastery of any existing skill

Half elves get the +2 prifociencies. Makes perfect sense, right?

I just expect that time spent casually ****ing around with something will eventually add up to something large given enough time

Nope. All of the time I spent playing Starcraft (which I was addicted to for a while) did not turn into something larger. It was just time spent.

If you start as a level 1 100 year old elf, that's the equivalent as starting as a level 1 31 year old human. Except with added social hang-ups.

Could be some fun RP fodder there.

Yes, in that case you'll also need to explain why they got started later in life.

Played too much starcraft/minecraft/electrumcraft for too long, perhaps. And now we know that elves have basements.

[RSP]

But the relevant point here is you don't start with a 100 year old elf. You start at 20. If you do start at 100, it's one that's going to be seen as a still acting like a child that hasn't already gotten wild adventuring out of their system, not an adult ready to settle down. That could easily also mean being a social pariah.

You could start at 20, but if you want to play an “adult” as opposed to a “child” then you need to start at 100.

Should Human PCs start at 13?

[Tanarii]

You could start at 20, but if you want to play an “adult” as opposed to a “child” then you need to start at 100.

Should Human PCs start at 13?

This is wrong. An elf starting at 20 is the same as a human starting at 20. And elf starting at 100 is the same as a human starting at 31. That's the equivalent biological ages.

Which means the difference must be social views. Elf society (and dwarf and gnome) most likely think of members as "adults" when they're past the the wild excesses of initial physical maturity and are a bit older and ready to settle down. Certainly that's how it worked in older editions, especially for dwarves. The PHB doesn't explicitly call it out, but that's the reasonable explanation for why elf/dwarf/gnomes that are the biological equivalent of 20 year old humans aren't "adults", and why ones that are approximately the biological equivalent of human 30 (exact equivalent varies by race) are "adults".

If you want to play a social "adult" elf, who should be past their adventuring days and settling down, but is instead just heading out as a level 1 PC ... you need to explain why that's the case. Same as if you did it with a 30 year old human.

[RSP]

This is wrong. An elf starting at 20 is the same as a human starting at 20. And elf starting at 100 is the same as a human starting at 31. That's the equivalent biological ages.

It’s not wrong. 5e considers humans to be adults in their late teens:

“Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.”

5e considers elves to be adult around age 100:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.”

“Physical maturity” is not the same thing as adulthood. For instance, in the U.S., you aren’t considered an adult until 18, regardless of physical maturity.

These are directly taken from the 5e Basic Rules, so I find it hard to call them wrong, though, by all means, you do you.

[Tanarii]

A 20 year old elf and a 20 year old human are both mature. That's what the PHB says. That means they are the same physical age.

If you extrapolate from physical maturity at 20 of humans to 100 year lifespan, and elf with physical maturity at 20 and 750 year lifespan, a 100 year elf is roughly the same as a physical age as a 31 year old human.

Adulthood is a social construct. Thats got nothing to do with physical age.

So yes, "Should Human PCs start at 13?" is a wrong comparison to starting with a 20 year old elf. That's the same as starting an elf at 13.

If you want to start an elf at 100, it requires figuring out why, when this elf that should be settling down after the excesses of pre-adulthood and becoming a responsible "adult", they have have instead bucked the trend and is doing the opposite, only just now embarking on what would normally be pre-adult hijinks and becoming an adventurer after 80 years of missed opportunity.

[Rukelnikov]

A 20 year old elf and a 20 year old human are both mature. That's what the PHB says. That means they are the same physical age.

If you extrapolate from physical maturity at 20 of humans to 100 year lifespan, and elf with physical maturity at 20 and 750 year lifespan, a 100 year elf is roughly the same as a physical age as a 31 year old human.

Adulthood is a social construct. Thats got nothing to do with physical age.

So yes, "Should Human PCs start at 13?" is a wrong comparison to starting with a 20 year old elf. That's the same as starting an elf at 13.

If you want to start an elf at 100, it requires figuring out why, when this elf that should be settling down after the excesses of pre-adulthood and becoming a responsible "adult", they have have instead bucked the trend and is doing the opposite, only just now embarking on what would normally be pre-adult hijinks and becoming an adventurer after 80 years of missed opportunity.

But that's a different character though, a 20 yo elf remembers their past lives and their time in arborea, the racial stats they get don't reflect this.

[RSP]

A 20 year old elf and a 20 year old human are both mature. That's what the PHB says. That means they are the same physical age.

No, words have meanings: the PHB does NOT say they are both MATURE at 20. Here’s the Elf RAW:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience.”

Physical maturity=/=maturity

If a real-life 14 year old kid reaches physical maturity, it neither means they are a) an adult; nor b) emotionally mature, or mature in any way other than being physically mature.

Deciding to omit words from the RAW to try and make a point does not actually mean you made a valid point or are correct.

For instance, you don’t get to have a character that is resistant to everything by deciding to omit “fire” from the ability “resist fire”. Again, words have meanings.

Since the PHB uses “adulthood” as their bar for ages, playing a 20-year old elf, if you really want to extrapolate, is akin to playing a 4-year old human: they’re each 1/5th towards being an adult, per the PHB.

[Segev]

I still am fond of the notion that a looks-10-years-old-to-a-human elf is roughly in his sixties (if he's the equivalent of a fifteen-year-old human at 115). It allows concepts like the orphaned elf being adopted by humans who have a kid his apparent age or younger, who, five to ten years later, is now grown up while his adoptive brother still looks like a kid. And lets one ask the question of how well a motivated youth can force himself to develop maturity and what that looks like when he feels 'left behind' by his (adopted) sibling(s).

[Hurrashane]

Isn't it a thing in 5e that an elf isn't considered an adult by their society until they're around 100?

Like, there's nothing in that that says a 20 year old elf couldn't/wouldn't be as mature as a 20 year old human (probably doubly true if said elf was raised by humans). It's just that to elves -both- would be considered immature children.

[Tanarii]

No, words have meanings: the PHB does NOT say they are both MATURE at 20. Here’s the Elf RAW:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience.”

You quoted the very thing that says they are mature.

Physical maturity=/=maturity

We're done here.

Isn't it a thing in 5e that an elf isn't considered an adult by their society until they're around 100?

Like, there's nothing in that that says a 20 year old elf couldn't/wouldn't be as mature as a 20 year old human (probably doubly true if said elf was raised by humans). It's just that to elves -both- would be considered immature children.

Yes but it's also possible they have several different views of different ages of 'not yet an adult'. As in they might have a world for 20-100 elves that doesn't really translate into "child" but doesn't necessarily mean "adult" either.

Especially if the expected behavior of an "adult" is something like "return to the traditional homeland, settle down to start a family, and participate in the community". And the 20-100 age group expected behavior is "go out and experience the world".