Concerning Elves

[RSP]

You quoted the very thing that says they are mature.

I’m not sure why you think the writers specifying “physical maturity” means they meant “every aspect of maturity”, particularly since they’re writing about the characters in question NOT being adults.

But again, Resist everything if that’s how you read the rules.

We're done here.

I mean, even if you want to discount non-physical maturity, for whatever reason, clearly the writers of the rules thought it a thing.

Now, we don’t know if they’re working on emotional maturity and mental maturity and/or spiritual maturity, or other factors, but they clearly wrote that physical maturity is not the only necessity to achieve adulthood.

Not sure why you find that so dismissive, but deciding to be dismissive about it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in the 5e rule set.

[RedMage125]

No, words have meanings: the PHB does NOT say they are both MATURE at 20. Here’s the Elf RAW:

“Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience.”

Physical maturity=/=maturity

He was only talking about physical maturity, and you quoted the RAW that supports what he said, while claiming he's wrong.

And then you spout nonsense:

If a real-life 14 year old kid reaches physical maturity, it neither means they are a) an adult; nor b) emotionally mature, or mature in any way other than being physically mature.

Where the actual F*** do you get this idea from?
Real life humans aren't done with puberty by 14 (some late bloomers are only starting puberty), most haven't even reached their adult height.
The pre-frontal cortex of the brain (the one responsible for understanding consequences, better understanding of empathy) doesn't PHYSICALLY develop all the way until the mid 20s (average age is 25, but individuals vary). And call that "mental/emotional maturity" all you want, it's still due to the physical development of the brain matter. Also, mid-20s is when a lot of men experience thicker facial hair growth, which will persist throughput their life. The reason the US drinking age is 21 is because that's about when the liver is done developing to be able to process toxins.

By absolutely ZERO metrics are real life humans "physically mature" at age 14, and you asserting that is actually kind of troubling.

Deciding to omit words from the RAW to try and make a point does not actually mean you made a valid point or are correct.

Take your own advice. The PHB says "Elves are considered children until they declare themselves adults, sometimes after the hundredth birthday".

You conveniently omit that in all of your analysis. That "adulthood after 100" is explicitly a social construct of elf culture, despite reaching PHYSICAL maturity at the same age as humans.

Since the PHB uses “adulthood” as their bar for ages, playing a 20-year old elf, if you really want to extrapolate, is akin to playing a 4-year old human: they’re each 1/5th towards being an adult, per the PHB.

No, they say ELVES don't consider an elf adult until they're 100. At this point, you're being intentionally dishonest and obtuse in order to be contrary.

[RSP]

I’ll just reiterate this:

Physical maturity=/= maturity or adulthood.

Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

There’s different aspects of what makes someone an adult. The physical part is, in fact, only part of it. That’s why the RAW specified the physical maturity part, because it’s only part of it. Otherwise they’d have just said “they mature ate the same rate as humans.” That’s not what they stated though.

[Sorinth]

I’ll just reiterate this:

Physical maturity=/= maturity or adulthood.

Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

There’s different aspects of what makes someone an adult. The physical part is, in fact, only part of it. That’s why the RAW specified the physical maturity part, because it’s only part of it. Otherwise they’d have just said “they mature ate the same rate as humans.” That’s not what they stated though.

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

[Rukelnikov]

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

Or it could be because in 5e lore, elven children mind is pretty different from elven adults mind, since they remember their past lives and arborea during trance. I haven't read Volo's (i think that's where it was, maybe MTF) in a long while, but I think its when they lose the remembrance that they generally start to travel.

[RSP]

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

Absolutely. Not sure why this met such outrage by a previous poster.

All the PHB tells us is that 5e elves reach adulthood at about 100 years old, while 5e humans reach adulthood in their late teens.

So if you want to play an adult human, start them at about 18 or 19. If you want to play an adult elf, start them at about 100.

DM permitting, feel free to play them younger, but you’re not playing an adult character.

[RedMage125]

But that non-physical maturity/adulthood concept is also subjective and varies from one culture to the next. Germans believe 16 is mature enough to drink beer while in America it's 21. Plenty of cultures have or have considered adulthood start at 13 rather then 18. Elves not considering physically mature people to be adults could be because elves are in fact emotionally/intellectually still children until 100ish or it could be that the cultural standard they have for what they consider to be mature/adult is much higher then humans.

This is given more detail in MToF. During their first century of life, an elf is still reliving memories of their past lives, moreso than the ones of their current existence. Once these fade around the century mark, they finally become more connected to the present and their current life, and can be considered "adult".

Good luck getting through to RSP tho.

I’ll just reiterate this:

Physical maturity=/= maturity or adulthood.

Claiming otherwise is just wrong.

There’s different aspects of what makes someone an adult. The physical part is, in fact, only part of it. That’s why the RAW specified the physical maturity part, because it’s only part of it. Otherwise they’d have just said “they mature ate the same rate as humans.” That’s not what they stated though.

"Adulthood" is a concept determined by societal norms. Elven societal norms dictate that adulthood begins when the individual elf declares it does (around the 100 year mark). MToF further clarifies that this is due to them no longer experiencing past life memories. All of that is specified in the RAW.

If you understand and accept that, why are you continuing to insist that elves should be given the benefits of an extra 8 decades of adult experience?

[Sorinth]

Absolutely. Not sure why this met such outrage by a previous poster.

All the PHB tells us is that 5e elves reach adulthood at about 100 years old, while 5e humans reach adulthood in their late teens.

So if you want to play an adult human, start them at about 18 or 19. If you want to play an adult elf, start them at about 100.

DM permitting, feel free to play them younger, but you’re not playing an adult character.

But that's just it, an elf can be played as an adult at 20. Elf society might not consider that elf to be an adult, but they also probably don't consider the 20 year old human to be an adult either. Whereas Human society would consider that 20 year old elf to be an adult. One culture's view on what makes someone an adult and has no bearing on whether you actually are an adult, especially since you can be considered an adult in one society but not in another. For example elf society might consider the mark of adult to be someone who puts community over self, so an elf who is out adventuring is viewed to either be a child or at least acting like a child because they are doing the selfish thing and adventuring with friends instead of settling down in the community and doing the mundane family life. So whether you are a 20 year old elf or a 150 year old elf, that society still views the adventurer as a child because adventuring is childish behaviour that adults don't engage in.

[RSP]

But that's just it, an elf can be played as an adult at 20.

Not according the PHB, but I certainly won’t stop you from doing so.

Elf society might not consider that elf to be an adult, but they also probably don't consider the 20 year old human to be an adult either. Whereas Human society would consider that 20 year old elf to be an adult.

I think you’re assuming a 20 year old elf is equivalent in all aspects to a 20 year old Human. Sure, different cultures do have different ideas on what makes an adult, but there’s also very much aspects of maturity, in all respects.

If you’ve seen Poor Things, it depicts a physically mature character, who is not emotionally, socially, psychologically, or mentally, mature.

I don’t think anyone would see that character at the start of the film and say “oh they’re an adult”.

There is a rather standard idea of what it means to be mature and what it means to be an adult. Generally speaking, current Western society doesn’t accept 14 year olds as adults, even if that’s been accepted in the past or in other cultures. So I think it’s fair to go by that idea of adulthood when reading the Age descriptions in the PHB and saying “oh, 5e Elves aren’t that until about 100,” as I play at a table in current Western society.

Likewise, if you’re from a culture that differs from Western ideas of adulthood, it’s fine for you to use the concepts of adulthood you’re used to. But it still holds true, whatever standard you want to use, that 5e Elves don’t reach that standard until about 100.

[KorvinStarmast]

This probably isn't going anywhere productive.
It's quite campaign and DM dependent. Trying to come down with "the right answer" ain't gonna happen, but a 'right answer' for a given campaign can based on how the world building goes.

[Sorinth]

Not according the PHB, but I certainly won’t stop you from doing so.



I think you’re assuming a 20 year old elf is equivalent in all aspects to a 20 year old Human. Sure, different cultures do have different ideas on what makes an adult, but there’s also very much aspects of maturity, in all respects.

If you’ve seen Poor Things, it depicts a physically mature character, who is not emotionally, socially, psychologically, or mentally, mature.

I don’t think anyone would see that character at the start of the film and say “oh they’re an adult”.

There is a rather standard idea of what it means to be mature and what it means to be an adult. Generally speaking, current Western society doesn’t accept 14 year olds as adults, even if that’s been accepted in the past or in other cultures. So I think it’s fair to go by that idea of adulthood when reading the Age descriptions in the PHB and saying “oh, 5e Elves aren’t that until about 100,” as I play at a table in current Western society.

Likewise, if you’re from a culture that differs from Western ideas of adulthood, it’s fine for you to use the concepts of adulthood you’re used to. But it still holds true, whatever standard you want to use, that 5e Elves don’t reach that standard until about 100.

It's indeterminate whether a 20 year old elf who is as physically mature as a 20 year old human is also as emotionally mature as the human or not. It's up to the DM to determine whether the 100 years to be considered an adult is a cultural thing or not, I don't think we can assume that the PHB description means that 100 years means the Western equivalent of 18, which frankly in itself isn't even all that accurate.

And it very much doesn't hold true that whatever standard you personally use means that all races would use the exact same standard and simply adjust to the ages to the PHB. It's completely nonsensical that every society in your fantasy world would have the same standard idea/definition of what it means to be an adult. In fact a big argument for the change in real world definition is that it relates to life expectancy, the age of adult is higher because we expect to live longer then they did previously. And following that thought it makes perfect sense that elves with a super long life expectancy would have a much higher standard of what it means to be an adult then humans would.

[Psyren]

I somewhat doubt the line about elven adulthood meant the designers intended for every single elf adventurer to be 100 years old minimum in order to have adult mental faculties/development. And even if they did, their own data shows the majority of people don't play that way; the rules should fit their audience, not the other way around.

[Witty Username]

I somewhat doubt the line about elven adulthood meant the designers intended for every single elf adventurer to be 100 years old minimum in order to have adult mental faculties/development. And even if they did, their own data shows the majority of people don't play that way; the rules should fit their audience, not the other way around.

I happen to have a player in my game playing a 20ish elf wizard, one of their character traits is that they are essentially a child in how they process, they just don't get much attention for it because they mostly interact with humans.

The last elf I concepted (backup character for a game, that I likely will not be able to use) was actually going to be in the other direction, an elf old enough that they were starting to show their age which I was guessing would be around 700 years old for 5e's reckoning.

[Psyren]

I happen to have a player in my game playing a 20ish elf wizard, one of their character traits is that they are essentially a child in how they process, they just don't get much attention for it because they mostly interact with humans.

If that's fun for your player I'm not here to yuck their yum, but I doubt the devs intended every sub-100 elf to go around roleplaying as a mental child. These sorts of things are where table variation is reasonable to expect.

[Segev]

If that's fun for your player I'm not here to yuck their yum, but I doubt the devs intended every sub-100 elf to go around roleplaying as a mental child. These sorts of things are where table variation is reasonable to expect.

I'm pretty sure, given that they stated that adulthood is 115+ years of age, that the devs intended for adventuring elves to be at least 115+NdM years old. Just as they intended for adventuring humans to be 15+NdM years old. (Where N and M are determined by your class's age modifier for your particular race.)

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure, given that they stated that adulthood is 115+ years of age, that the devs intended for adventuring elves to be at least 115+NdM years old. Just as they intended for adventuring humans to be 15+NdM years old. (Where N and M are determined by your class's age modifier for your particular race.)

Let me rephrase then - their own data is telling them most people don't play that way, so they should consider/convey elven immaturity to be different than immaturity as we understand it for humans. For example, they could spell out that it's not that they lack adult brain development at, say, 40 years or 80 years of age; rather, it's that they tend to be more flighty and less focused in those years and therefore less inclined to adventuring outside their communities. That kind of thing.

[Witty Username]

I doubt most people actually think about their character's age much in all honesty.

Like when was the last time you had a player actually wanting to explore something like being elderly or young? I think most of it comes to what will get character to be sufficiently attractive.

[yisopo]

I suggest to watch the anime Frieren to see the psychological consequences of living so long for an elf.

[Segev]

Let me rephrase then - their own data is telling them most people don't play that way, so they should consider/convey elven immaturity to be different than immaturity as we understand it for humans. For example, they could spell out that it's not that they lack adult brain development at, say, 40 years or 80 years of age; rather, it's that they tend to be more flighty and less focused in those years and therefore less inclined to adventuring outside their communities. That kind of thing.

They have data telling them people are playing 20-80 year old elves and specifically are playing them as children, or something? I'm confused as to what data you're referring to. This just seems like strange data to have, so I am not sure if I am misunderstanding what data you are saying they have.

[Psyren]

They have data telling them people are playing 20-80 year old elves and specifically are playing them as children, or something? I'm confused as to what data you're referring to. This just seems like strange data to have, so I am not sure if I am misunderstanding what data you are saying they have.

They shared data showing that most players, regardless of race, are playing characters well below 100 years old. Given that elves are the second most popular race per their stats, I'd expect them to make up a big chunk of that pie (and they themselves even cracked a joke about it.) Now, it could very well be that all the elves in that bunch are being RPed as children - I wouldn't know - but somehow I doubt that to be the case. Hence my recommendation about them treating elven mental maturity differently to square the circle.

[Segev]

They shared data showing that most players, regardless of race, are playing characters well below 100 years old. Given that elves are the second most popular race per their stats, I'd expect them to make up a big chunk of that pie (and they themselves even cracked a joke about it.) Now, it could very well be that all the elves in that bunch are being RPed as children - I wouldn't know - but somehow I doubt that to be the case. Hence my recommendation about them treating elven mental maturity differently to square the circle.

Huh. I wonder how many people playing elves at sub-100 years of age just don't know that that's the "official" age of maturity.

[awa]

one of the advantages of elves and for that matter dwarves is you basically know the gist of it right from the get go, I imagine the majority of players dont really read the elf lore at all why would they they already know what an elf is anyhow. the few times I played 5th edition I didn't.