OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[MReav]

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.

[bunsen_h]

"These idiot kids are stone-cold killers, probably."

Looks like another failed Bluff.

He just has a bunch of daggers.

They're like Haley's arrows.

[OvisCaedo]

Well, that answers several of the questions I had about the exact nature of this imprisonment. Being conscious the whole time was specifically NOT intended, but IS what Calder endured. Ouch.

[KorvinStarmast]

Still, just how many poor decisions did Soon Kim make in his life? The guy was practically the living embodiment of honor before reason.

I don't see how it was a poor decision. Soon wasn't a murder hobo.

Also, am I to take those last few panels to mean Seirini left the paladins behind on purpose? Why do I feel like her refusal to trust them is going to come back and bite her?

Calder may bite her first.

I guess Serini hasn't had a bard to remind her of cutaway panels for a long time.

No bard in Scribblers.

I like Calder's way of casting ray spells is with eye laser beams.

Yes, it's a cool artistic choice. Pun intended

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.

No, they don't. Serini's attitude is the detriment - if her intent was to leave them behind. She went tearing off after Sunny in a bit of a panic. The rest of the party also neglected to ensure that the paladin's had a way up ... not just Serini.

Her 'no paladins' lines may be a bluff, she's a rogue, or, she may be aware that they didn't make it up yet. Hard to say.

Mimi in the second to last panel: mimic's gonna mimic.

Why didn't Blackwing cleverly boink out of existence for a bit? One AoE and he's done. Maybe being inside of dimensional stone makes it harder.

[Tubercular Ox]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

[Resileaf]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

They didn't pull V out during the vampire battle. There is literally no reason to save V's life in a battle because the point of the soul theft is to prevent V from doing important things.

[Gift Jeraff]

Good to know Soon isn't a genocidal killer of monsters like I've seen people over the years assume him to be for some reason.

[Synesthesy]

There is actually a (maybe) important point here, because if Soon did spare the dragon... It means that he was more similar to O-Chul then to Miko or the previous captain of the Sapphire Guard whose name now I don't remember from the O-Chul's story.

[Peelee]

There is actually a (maybe) important point here, because if Soon did spare the dragon... It means that he was more similar to O-Chul then to Miko or the previous captain of the Sapphire Guard whose name now I don't remember from the O-Chul's story.

Imean, i figured that from hsi appearance back in the Azurite/Goblin war.

[Tubercular Ox]

There is literally no reason to save V's life in a battle because the point of the soul theft is to prevent V from doing important things.

Not feeling it. Obviously V has to be in a position to do something important before they pull him, or else they could have just killed him. It's the loss of V that matters, not the absence.

And to make sure he is doing something important before they pull him, that may require saving him at some point.

Fair point about the vampire fight. OTOH, the vampire fight did not involve one or two Polar Rays.

[Resileaf]

Not feeling it. Obviously V has to be in a position to do something important before they pull him, or else they could have just killed him. It's the loss of V that matters, not the absence.

And to make sure he is doing something important before they pull him, that may require saving him at some point.

V was not doing anything important when they were pulled the first time. They were out in a tunnel separated from the rest of the group. It is the absence that counts, to prevent them from being there at a crucial moment. If V dies in a battle against a red dragon, then they are certain to be absent later (and if they're not absent, it's because they got resurrected afterwards so being pulled from the battle is completely moot).

Fair point about the vampire fight. OTOH, the vampire fight did not involve one or two Polar Rays.

No, but it involved three ranged sneak attacks.

[Precure]

All those times Serini criticized paladins seems weird considering Soon was the reason they didn't kill Calder.

There is actually a (maybe) important point here, because if Soon did spare the dragon... It means that he was more similar to O-Chul then to Miko or the previous captain of the Sapphire Guard whose name now I don't remember from the O-Chul's story.

Miko didn't kill anyone surrendered to her.

[elecampane]

Polar Ray is a nasty one, I think V might have been clearly taken out there.

I dunno, seems a bit underwhelming for a 8th level spell slot to me. Up to 1d6/level damage to a single target, maxed at 25d6 (max 150, average 87.5). I mean, Horrid Wilting does the same damage (although capped at 20d6), but for any number of creatures in range. And Symbol of insanity and Mass charm monster are the same level.

In Serini's case, as an epic rogue she would have Evasion, so she must have failed her save in that panel (instead of flipping out of the way like Belkar did) which would mean a lot of incoming damage.

I mean, I assume an Epic Rogue would've taken improved evasion as her special ability somewhere along the progression, so that would mean even on a failed reflex save the damage is halved, and then resist fire (30) on top of that.

Ocular Spell is a feat that exists. Also, Calder mentions getting rid of his cold weakness. And he might've dipped Mindbender. What has Calder done with his build?

He would've had to cast the Ocular spell in preparation beforehand, and I don't think he had the time.

[Cazero]

V was not doing anything important when they were pulled the first time. They were out in a tunnel separated from the rest of the group.

Right, nothing important at all. Just, you know, trying to convince Roy not to blow up Girard's Gate.

[Resileaf]

Right, nothing important at all. Just, you know, trying to convince Roy not to blow up Girard's Gate.

Think of it this way.

If V was dead at that particular moment, what would have changed in the situation? Roy destroyed the Gate because V wasn't there to stop him. If V was dead, would Roy have not destroyed the Gate?

[Psyren]

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.

It's ironic that Soon came the closest to ending Team Evil permanently.

Eh, you can get the first two effects from friendly casters. IIRC the Guard had clerics as well.

They do. (Also this, same guy I believe.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Good to know Soon isn't a genocidal killer of monsters like I've seen people over the years assume him to be for some reason.

The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

It's been radiating off of these web pages to me since my first arrival at GitP to read a 5e paladin guide in 2014. But let's not derail this thread.
The 5e paladin in the PHB was a very well designed class.

[Ghosty]

I dunno, seems a bit underwhelming for a 8th level spell slot to me. Up to 1d6/level damage to a single target, maxed at 25d6 (max 150, average 87.5). I mean, Horrid Wilting does the same damage (although capped at 20d6), but for any number of creatures in range. And Symbol of insanity and Mass charm monster are the same level...

No Save for Polar Ray. Which is going to sting. It should take the all mighty Wizard out of the fight, which was the point.

Seems like that's the spell to use on someone likely having Evasion...

[Psyren]

Think of it this way.

If V was dead at that particular moment, what would have changed in the situation? Roy destroyed the Gate because V wasn't there to stop him. If V was dead, would Roy have not destroyed the Gate?

But if they hadn't been pulled, Roy might have stopped, Girard's Gate would have stayed intact, and there would have been no Godsmoot. What's more, the IFFC wanted the godsmoot to happen because they thought it would go Hel's way and the world would be destroyed on the spot. So the IFCC did, in fact, interrupt V while they were doing something important.

[Ghosty]

The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

It's been radiating off of these web pated to me since my first arrival at GitP to read a 5e paladin guide in 2014. But let's not derail this thread.

At least in this strip, deconstruction of myths surrounding 'proper' Paladin play? As well as deconstructing the overall idea of: Be Paladin. See Creature. Creature is Always Evil. Kill Creature? And that Paladins have the perception of interfering with the murder hobo'ing that a portion of players find fun about D&D and other RPGs?

I see your point on the observation.

[Barstro]

He would've had to cast the Ocular spell in preparation beforehand, and I don't think he had the time.

What else would he do while conscious and imprisoned? Now he has a single action to fire off two spells at once (assuming I read the feat correctly) that most would not expect from a red dragon and therefore be unprepared. Seems a good use of resources to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

Right, nothing important at all. Just, you know, trying to convince Roy not to blow up Girard's Gate.

+1

But if they hadn't been pulled, Roy might have stopped, Girard's Gate would have stayed intact, and there would have been no Godsmoot. What's more, the IFFC wanted the godsmoot to happen because they thought it would go Hel's way and the world would be destroyed on the spot. So the IFCC did, in fact, interrupt V while they were doing something important.

And we'd have lost out on Book VI which included the re-demise of Crystal, meeting Sigdi, meeting Minrah, and meeting Kudzu.

[Resileaf]

But if they hadn't been pulled, Roy might have stopped, Girard's Gate would have stayed intact, and there would have been no Godsmoot. What's more, the IFFC wanted the godsmoot to happen because they thought it would go Hel's way and the world would be destroyed on the spot. So the IFCC did, in fact, interrupt V while they were doing something important.

That's not part of the point. The point is that V's absence is what matters. If V is not there to prevent something from happening (such as by being dead), then the IFCC's objectives are more likely to be fulfilled.

[Debatra]

Good to know Soon isn't a genocidal killer of monsters like I've seen people over the years assume him to be for some reason.

I would assume because he went out on a "crusade", combined with things like Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar portraying the Guard as exactly that. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to believe they didn't start being that until after Soon's death as well, so who knows.

[Riftwolf]

Always fun when a strip explicitly says my guess was right after being argued against in a dead thread.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

[KorvinStarmast]

Always fun when a strip explicitly says my guess was right after being argued against in a dead thread.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

Does this strip, 1297, tell us this?
How?

[Debatra]

Does this strip, 1297, tell us this?
How?

I think he meant guessing that either Soon was the one who spared Calder's life, or that it wasn't intentional for him to be conscious the whole time, and the rest of his post was unrelated.

Always fun when a strip explicitly says my guess was right after being argued against in a dead thread.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

Not dominated, just absent. They get his soul, not his body. Though handing her off to Tiamat to torment for a few minutes might ease their "kill a bunch of good dragons" debt a little.

[InvisibleBison]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

The IFCC can't save Vaarsuvius from the polar ray. They can grab their soul, but not their body. Collecting on their debt in the middle of a major fight would actually put Vaarsuvius in a great deal more danger than they were already in, since they would still be vulnerable to attack but could no longer defend themselves or fight back.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think he meant guessing that either Soon was the one who spared Calder's life, or that it wasn't intentional for him to be conscious the whole time, and the rest of his post was unrelated.

Ok, that's a less confusing take on the post. Thanks.

[Debatra]

The IFCC can't save Vaarsuvius from the polar ray. They can grab their soul, but not their body. Collecting on their debt in the middle of a major fight would actually put Vaarsuvius in a great deal more danger than they were already in, since they would still be vulnerable to attack but could no longer defend themselves or fight back.

Actually, this not being true is probably the only reason she survived Girard's Gate exploding while practically right on top of him.