Any way to level drain undead?

[Rebel7284]

Besides Thought Bottle and Undead Batteries from Dragonlance, are there any way for an undead to lose HD? Trying to figure out some early entry shenanigans.

[Khatoblepas]

Spark of Life (Libris Mortis) can give undead a vunerability to energy drain:

For the duration of the spell, the undead creature is subject to extra damage from critical hits (and thus sneak attacks), nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and damage to its physical ability scores (though it still lacks a Constitution score and thus can't take Constitution damage) as if it were alive.

Just don't go underwater at any point during the spell or you will die in two rounds from drowning.

[Tzardok]

The index of Monster Manual 3 includes an ability called "Energy Charge", which is the opposite of Energy Drain and gives positive levels to living characters, but negative levels to undead ones. Sadly, there is no creature that actually has this ability.

[ShurikVch]

Void Strike - 13th-level Void Disciple PrC CF - bestows 1d4 negative levels which are from void (not negative energy), thus - can affect Undead just fine

Another way: Revive Undead spell restores destroyed Undead without 1 level or HD...

[Rebel7284]

Spark of Life (Libris Mortis) can give undead a vunerability to energy drain:

I think that's actually perfect!

Just don't go underwater at any point during the spell or you will die in two rounds from drowning.

Noted 😂

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would regular negative levels that don't depend on level drain work? An Evil-aligned undead creature is still subject to negative levels granted by holding a holy weapon, for instance; if the undead is [psionic], the psibane weapon property would do the same. Also, if you could somehow make an undead creature no longer immune to your [mind-affecting] spells, the psionic power mindwipe should work just fine. Also, the Song of the Dead feat, if you can find other [mind-affecting] negative level spells that don't involve negative energy. There's also the Threnodic Spell feat, from PF.

[Feantar]

The index of Monster Manual 3 includes an ability called "Energy Charge", which is the opposite of Energy Drain and gives positive levels to living characters, but negative levels to undead ones. Sadly, there is no creature that actually has this ability.

Wait what? Seriously? Maybe it's in the errata?

[Biggus]

Void Strike - 13th-level Void Disciple PrC CF - bestows 1d4 negative levels which are from void (not negative energy), thus - can affect Undead just fine

That seems like a pretty dubious interpretation, it specifies that it doesn't help undead, not that it overcomes their immunity to negative levels.

Wait what? Seriously? Maybe it's in the errata?

Just had a look, it isn't. The consensus seems to be that it's probably an ability they gave to a monster which got cut out of MM3 before publication. I'd never heard of it before today either.

[ShurikVch]

That seems like a pretty dubious interpretation, it specifies that it doesn't help undead, not that it overcomes their immunity to negative levels.

But Undead don't have immunity to negative levels - only to energy drain

[Saintheart]

Energy Drain =/= negative levels =/= permanent level loss. "Level drain" often gets used for all 3, but it's (frustratingly) not quite that simple. Undead have 3 separate layers of defences against losing a HD or level: immunity to Energy Drain specifically, a strongly implied immunity to negative levels, and immunity to anything that takes a Fort save. You have to get past all three - because only permanent level loss removes a hit dice.

Spark of Life removes immunity to Energy Drain, but it doesn't change the creature's type. And the Undead type has "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). With some very rare exceptions, negative levels only rip an actual HD or level off when the creature fails a Fort save. Undead don't make Fort saves, Spark of Life does nothing about that.

As for how negative levels affect undead, that's an even stupider and less certain situation. Because, again, all the Undead type says is that "Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures." It doesn't specifically say as such that a negative level is a negative energy effect (though that's the most common and straightforward interpretation since something with no protection on the Negative Energy Plane takes negative levels once per round, and the overwhelming majority of spells imposing negative levels are of the Necromancy school). It also doesn't say that undead are always healed by negative levels - that sort of effect is usually specified in the spell or ability effect if you try and use an Energy Drain-ish, or negative level bestower, on an undead creature. You could argue (to I have no doubt an unreceptive audience) that negative levels can be bestowed on undead, it's more a question of what happens when you do.

Also, if you could somehow make an undead creature no longer immune to your [mind-affecting] spells, the psionic power mindwipe should work just fine. Also, the Song of the Dead feat, if you can find other [mind-affecting] negative level spells that don't involve negative energy. There's also the Threnodic Spell feat, from PF.

Another way Pathfinder indirectly makes this possible is because under its rules, their [fear] effects are [mind-affecting]. So you just shoehorn in the Dread Witch who can add the [fear] descriptor to a spell they cast that has a visual manifestation, Song of the Dead, done. Under 3.5 it's ... a bit more complicated.

[Rebel7284]

I understand the uncertainty of negative levels and undead, in general, but spark of life explicitly says that energy drain works on the undead, so wouldn't it make sense that all parts of the ability in question work as per the specific trumps general? And most energy drain abilities of monsters mention level loss.

[Tzardok]

Would regular negative levels that don't depend on level drain work? An Evil-aligned undead creature is still subject to negative levels granted by holding a holy weapon, for instance; if the undead is [psionic], the psibane weapon property would do the same.

That won't work; enchantments like this always include a rider that they never lead to actual level loss:

Anarchic
An anarchic weapon is chaotically aligned and infused with the power of chaos. It makes the weapon chaos-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of lawful alignment. It bestows one negative level on any lawful creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the chaotic power upon their ammunition.

Psibane
A psibane weapon is crafted to oppose psionic beings. When used against such creatures, its effective enhancement bonus is 2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against psionic opponents. It bestows one negative level on any psionic creature attempting to wield it. This negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way while the weapon is wielded. Psibane bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability upon their ammunition.

[Chronos]

Quoth Saintheart:

Another way Pathfinder indirectly makes this possible is because under its rules, their [fear] effects are [mind-affecting]. So you just shoehorn in the Dread Witch who can add the [fear] descriptor to a spell they cast that has a visual manifestation, Song of the Dead, done. Under 3.5 it's ... a bit more complicated.

Fear effects being mind-affecting is a feature of 3.5, also, but it doesn't help. The relevance of mind-effecting here is just that undead are normally immune to it, and hence any mind-affecting level drain must get through yet another layer of protection. Song of the Dead can bypass the mind-affecting immunity, but it doesn't bypass any of the other immunities, so it's only useful if you have something mind-affecting that inherently isn't subject to the others.

[Inevitability]

That won't work; enchantments like this always include a rider that they never lead to actual level loss:

Also, even if they did lead to level loss: the saving throw to avoid gaining a negative level is Fortitude-based and specific to creatures, so undead are immune anyway.

[Saintheart]

I understand the uncertainty of negative levels and undead, in general, but spark of life explicitly says that energy drain works on the undead, so wouldn't it make sense that all parts of the ability in question work as per the specific trumps general? And most energy drain abilities of monsters mention level loss.

True - if Energy Drain were the same thing as getting negative levels. Which it isn't, because not all instances of negative levels have to come on via Energy Drain. Indeed the disjunction is specific enough that WOTC goes to the trouble of pointing out that while Energy Drain (Su) gives temporary hitpoints, a negative level imposed by a spell or other effect does not. (And then they further confuse it by adding in Life Drain as a feat, which does grant temporary hitpoints to - by RAW - all instances of negative level imposition.)

This is the problem with WOTC's fascination with overlapping effects to which different immunities apply. It makes for a satisfying system to explore, but it's hellish to keep consistent.

For example, Spark goes to all the trouble of specifying that undead under its effects do have to take Fort saves. If Energy Drain just worked on the undead as written, there'd be no need to go to that trouble. The problem is that there's Energy Drain immunity, and then there's negative energy immunity.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That won't work; enchantments like this always include a rider that they never lead to actual level loss:

The point is that the negative levels could be used for whatever purpose the OP had in mind, depending on what that purpose is.

For instance, taking a bunch of high level undead, rebuking them all, forcing them to hold holy weapons, and using the negative levels to keep them at low (effective) level so you can rebuke even more of them to keep them under your control.

They don't need to be actually permanent to be effectively permanent.

[Chronos]

Quoth Saintheart:

For example, Spark goes to all the trouble of specifying that undead under its effects do have to take Fort saves. If Energy Drain just worked on the undead as written, there'd be no need to go to that trouble.

No, that's still relevant, because there are a lot of other effects that Fort saves are relevant for, and for some of them, that Fort save is the only thing that makes undead immune to them. Spark of Life would make those work on undead, too.