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Thread: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
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2024-02-13, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
If you think Gorgon ('female monster with snake hair and a paralyzing gaze') is at the same level as a category as the classical usage of d(a)emon ('kind of like any of the numberless intermediary beings between the gods and mortals, especially one of the malevolent instances if you go by later sources'), that's not on me. That's on you.
"Fenrir," "fenris wolf," and other Fenrir derivatives are sometimes used to refer to various kinds of wolf monsters.
What do you mean, the coatl? There are plenty of fantasy works where coatls are a whole species of winged serpents, including D&D!
How many examples will you demand I show you? How much BS will you throw at me to discredit them?
That said, you have already done that when you said "It has to be a category that I, subjectively, think is narrow and meaningful".Last edited by Metastachydium; 2024-02-13 at 11:23 AM.
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2024-02-13, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
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2024-02-13, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-13, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
Names of singular monsters adapted to mean a type of monster: Pegasus, Minotaur, Nemean Lion, Hydra, Chimera, Medusa, Scylla, Wadjet, Sphinx (were there multiple?), Leviathan, and Kraken. Perhaps some more in the extensions, I never liked playing with the added deities.
The brood thing: they have Anubites (Anubis-like monsters) and Jormund Elver (internet tells me that means "young eel").
It's a fantastic game, by the way.Screaming defiance with the last breath
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2024-02-13, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
"Sphinx" is an interesting case, because in Greek mythology there was only one (incidentally, the name means roughly 'female strangler'), but when the Greek visited the Egyptians they applied the term to the many, many lion-bodied statues they found there (partially the reason why there are so many sphinx-subraces in D&D). The Egyptians obviously didn't use the term sphinx for those (IIRC, they didn't have a collective term for them at all, instead giving each an individual name).
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2024-02-13, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
I can add the Behemoth and the Argus (Panoptes, even having an upgrade called "Io Guardian", despite being represented as a flying octopus for some reason). I concur with the fact that the game is amazing (for its age, it dates back to 2002). It treats mythology about as well as D&D does (that is to say, take what it likes, ignores every point that hinders the story it aims to tell), and makes several inaccuracies (beyond having whole species of unique monsters, which is inevitable in an RTS game, Argus is shaped like an octopus, Kronos has time powers, Medusa refers to all gorgons, Scylla is just an aquatic hydra with the ability to grow new heads...), but the gameplay is really good, the main storyline is superb and, above all, it is fun. You should try it.
Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-13 at 12:47 PM.
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2024-02-13, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
Last edited by Ignimortis; 2024-02-13 at 01:49 PM.
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2024-02-13, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
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Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-02-13, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
Hm. So, still the Medusa's the only "there was a (quasi-)species!!"-class offender. Good to know.
The brood thing: they have Anubites (Anubis-like monsters) and Jormund Elver (internet tells me that means "young eel").
I've seen Shedus called Mesopotamian Sphinges before, in addition to those. But yeah.
Heh.
Argus is shaped like an octopus,
Kronos has time powers,
Originally Posted by Beni
but the gameplay is really good, the main storyline is superb and, above all, it is fun. You should try it.Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
It's MY thread now! I'll allow it.
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2024-02-13, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
For the Anubis masked/headed minions, I think it gets used because it's generally thought that the priests in Ancient Egypt would have worn similar masks, it's a very simple but striking look, and it sets expectations real fast.
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2024-02-13, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!
Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-02-13, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
You're taking it as a given that categories can (and should) be put into levels like that. More importantly, you're taking it as a given that that distinction matters to the topic at hand.
There are several ways that the categories "demon" and "gorgon" differ. It's on you to explain why those differences are relevant. And once you do, deciding how specific a category needs to be to "count" is a whole separate discussion!
"Youkai" is more specific than "demon" and more generic than "gorgon"; is it an acceptable category? The fact that I don't know whether you think it is, whether youkai examples will be dismissed for this reason, is a problem with this criterion's mere existence.
The Couatl, as in the Owlbear or the Gelatinous Cube. I was talking about the D&D monster (which does otherwise happen to be inspired by a singular entity of no species that would be typed as an Outsider in D&D, just as the Couatl is an Outsider).
Also: If you weren't using it as a proper noun, why did you capitalize The Couatl? Why did you use the singular in the first place? When talking about bears or dragons, you don't say "The Bear attacks with its claws" or "The Dragon breathes fire," do you?
I specified one criterion at the start (there is a species-type category ditched in favour of the name of a famous instance) and sticked to it. Technically, you managed to come up with one (1) example that is not the Medusa, and in actual fact, the Barghest is about as true to its folkloric original as the D&D!Gorgon is to its mythical one.
I also disagree with your choice to dismiss the other examples I've given. For instance, you dismissed "fenris wolf" with:
I'll have to take your word for that, I suppose.
I can't see into your heart and soul. But from my perspective, it seems like you'll come up with an excuse to dismiss every example I provide—and all of your excuses so far have been subjective. I think that that category is too generic. I haven't heard that name used often. I think that's just inspiration, not...whatever medusas have. I don't think it's mythologically accurate enough to count. That's not enough examples to convince me. Yes, one counterexample is usually enough to disprove an absolute rule, but that's not enough because I say so.
Whatever your intent, the past two posts have convinced me that there is absolutely no point providing additional examples.
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2024-02-14, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-14, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
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Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-02-14, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
In D&D: originally (possible past copyright infringement aside), they were Type VI Demons, and Balor was just one of them - the greatest.
Thus, now we got Balor named Balor...Last edited by ShurikVch; 2024-02-14 at 02:10 PM.
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2024-02-15, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
I don't think I need to explain why and how reptile and dragon are different categories, frankly, and if I have to, I'll blame my audience.
"Youkai" is more specific than "demon" and more generic than "gorgon"; is it an acceptable category? The fact that I don't know whether you think it is, whether youkai examples will be dismissed for this reason, is a problem with this criterion's mere existence.
Inspired by and named after.
Also: If you weren't using it as a proper noun, why did you capitalize The Couatl? Why did you use the singular in the first place? When talking about bears or dragons, you don't say "The Bear attacks with its claws" or "The Dragon breathes fire," do you?
And you added a second criterion in your second post. (As I said you would.) And you have failed to explain why the heck that criterion matters, beyond your own assertion.
I also disagree with your choice to dismiss the other examples I've given. For instance, you dismissed "fenris wolf" with:
Since you don't count "fenris wolf" as one of the examples that you accept, I have to assume that "I have not personally seen this happen much" is a third criterion.
Then you said that couatls are merely inspired by Quetzelcoatl, which is somehow distinct from the relationship between Medusa and medusas, and I guess that's a fourth criterion.
And since you mention that the D&D barghest is unfaithful to its legendary inspiration, should I assume that that is a fifth?
I can't see into your heart
it seems like you'll come up with an excuse to dismiss every example I provide—and all of your excuses so far have been subjective.
I think that that category is too generic.
I haven't heard that name used often.
I think that's just inspiration, not...whatever medusas have.
I don't think it's mythologically accurate enough to count.
That's not enough examples to convince me. Yes, one counterexample is usually enough to disprove an absolute rule, but that's not enough because I say so.
Whatever your intent, the past two posts have convinced me that there is absolutely no point providing additional examples.
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2024-02-15, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
I think the actual distinction that makes it distinct from Medusa is the lack of a better option.
If you're making a Quetzalcoatl-inspired type of monster you've got to have a name for it, and Quetzalcoatl is one of a kind in the myths. The path of least resistance there is to just take the name of the individual and make that the species name.
But you don't have to make that compromise with something like Medusa, because there are other monsters like her and there's a name for them that's specific to the sort of monster they are. Gorgon basically just describes Medusa and her sisters, it's not an umbrella term that encompasses a wide swathe of monsters.
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2024-02-15, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Monsters and Medusae, I guess?
Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!
Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-02-16, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-16, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Screaming defiance with the last breath
It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.
My judgments and medals!
The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!
Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)
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2024-02-16, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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