What Would Happen If The D&D Dragon Deities Pantheon Were In DC Or Marvel Universe?

[Bartmanhomer]

I feel that the 12 Dragon Deities (Io, Bahamut, Lendys, Tiamat, Tamara, Astilabor, Sardior, Chronepsis, Faluzure, Hlal, Aasterinian, and Garyx) will play a role in both universes. I know the good dragon deities (Bahamut, Tamara, and Hlal) will fight against their evil dragon deities' siblings (Tiamat, Faluzure, and Garyx) in both universes. Both sides will have allies in both universes. (Such as the good dragon deities join forces with the Justice League and Avengers and the evil dragon deities will join forces with the Legion of Doom and the Brotherhood of Mutants.) And as for the neutral dragon deities, they tend not to get involved in the fight. So what do you think about this topic? I'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions.

[137beth]

(Such as the good dragon deities join forces with the Justice League and Avengers and the evil dragon deities will join forces with the Legion of Doom and the Brotherhood of Mutants.)

Would they? I don't know much about the DC or Marvel universes, but D&D Deities tend to be the sort of folk who sit back and let the PCs solve the world's problems rather than get involved themselves.

[Bartmanhomer]

Would they? I don't know much about the DC or Marvel universes, but D&D Deities tend to be the sort of folk who sit back and let the PCs solve the world's problems rather than get involved themselves.

Maybe so but Thor is a deity himself and he's get involved with the Avengers. So I don't see why the Dragon Deities won't do the same.

[Buufreak]

Maybe so but Thor is a deity himself and he's get involved with the Avengers. So I don't see why the Dragon Deities won't do the same.

That is highly objective. As far as marvel cosmology is concerned, asgardians might as well be very human-looking aliens with various super powers. Much like, as you might guess, literally hundreds of other comic book characters.

[Lord Raziere]

No, there is ample evidence they'd stay out of things.

most deities in both universes don't actually go around being superheroes or supervillains, alignment doesn't change that. superheroes are exceptional because they choose to do what they do, not just because they are good or have power to do good. while on the villain side of things there is no particular reason for Tiamat to join whatever supervillain organization by itself unless she is on Earth actively doing evil that superheroes would foil.

if these deities are on another planet? then its likely that they could stay out of the whole Earth conflict without any repercussions. superheroes tend to focus on Earth specifically.

furthermore, they written as background characters for DnD, which isn't the same as how Thor is written in Marvel. I'd assume such a crossover would happen because DC or Marvel would acquire DnD and try to incorporate their cosmology and setting into theirs, so those deities wouldn't get more active or anything, because that contradicts how they already been written, you have to assume that DnD fans would want some level of familiarity and any DnD deity doesn't really interfere with peoples affairs directly, they empower through clerics or paladins and such, but they're not really the star of the show.

furthermore, superheroes have a certain....winning formula for how to write a superhero. there is a reason why Superman, Batman and the Spiderman are the top 3 and why everyone isn't as popular: they are very human characters whose normal lives are just as important as their hero lives, and their normal lives are intertwined with our modern human world, making them very understandable and relatable. certainly, heroes like Wonder Woman, Thor, god heroes like that are possible even liked, but they don't come a background of modern society that really makes a superhero story appealing to what most people want from them. superheroes with double lives, with identities mixing mundane and fantastic in a way that makes them have problems and interesting situations, that produces a lot of what makes superhero stories work, and thus sell.

so both of the universes and the people writing them have reasons to instead have dragon deities be in the background and instead empower some human on earth to fight for them and their cause, essentially making a superhero like I dunno, Dragon Man, Champion of Bahamut! or something and probably end up being Yet Another Flying Brick who uses their god-granted powers to fight evil! it would be consistent both with how such deities act and how superhero stories tend to work, because now Dragon Man has to balance his mundane personal life with the demands of whatever Bahamut requires of him as a hero, with what he thinks HE should do as a hero, potentially what the Justice League/Avengers wants him to do as a hero if he joins that, its more interesting if its Dragon Man doing the active work because it delves into how these deities demands of him may not be the version of good he agrees with, may not be the good other superheroes agree with, how he has to balance these responsibilities, things like that, because the dragon deities are probably still doing their thing on DnD worlds as well, those wouldn't disappear because Marvel or DC wouldn't want to shut off a game and thus the setting that game takes place in from making money for them. of course, thats assuming they care about the dragon deities at all, the more likely outcome is that they would just port over Drizz't and Elminster and turn them into superheroes because those are already the established characters.

[Errorname]

Maybe so but Thor is a deity himself and he's get involved with the Avengers. So I don't see why the Dragon Deities won't do the same

Marvel's take on the Asgardians works on different and largely incompatible rules to how D&D deities work.

That's honestly the answer for this in general, they're characters who come from a different mode of storytelling and wouldn't be particularly compatible. Most likely they'd slot into place as backstory elements for a new superhero and their nemesis less than as active actors in their own right. And probably not a super popular hero either, (in my experience) superhero stories going for traditional fantasy stuff doesn't hit as well. Like Wonder Woman and Thor are both very distinctly the third member of their respective trinities, and generally the least popular.

[Rater202]

Another thing to keep in mind is how deities work, by default, in D&D.

In standard D&D cosmology, gods are sustained on worship and souls. They create mortals to sustain themselves and draw mortal souls to the outer planes where they are broken down over time, suffering death of memory, personality, and self until they are worn down to nothing but the purest essence of their alignment or a god's values before the soul breaks down entirely into raw materials which are either absorbed into the plane to expand it, consumed to sustain and empower the god, or uses as raw materials to create servants, messengers, or soldiers for the gods or other powerful Outsiders. Regardless, the end result is the same, the promise of an eternal afterlife is both a lie and a trap.

In at least one D&D setting book, this is explicitly an artificial course of events, and the Forgotten Realms setting in particular has a similar artificial arrangement designed to eternally torture anyone who doesn't step onto the conveyorbelt through the killing floor.

Thus, objectively speaking, even the "Good" gods are ultimately ranchers lying through their teeth to their fully sapient cattle at best and on a cosmic scale every single D&D god is a parasite.

Import them to Marvel, presumably with their own planes as well since that's kind of a necessary aspect, and you won't have Bahumut showing up to Join Thor and Hercules on the God Squad... You'd have a Summer Event where two or three warring factions of Dragon Gods are fighting over the right to harvest the souls of Earth 616 with the heroes caught in the middle having to defeat both the screaming cackling villains and the self-righteous jackasses.

Cause you know, mass soul-eating is kind of an inherently evil thing to do.

Probably ends with Doctor Strange sealing all the Dragon Gods in a pocket dimension outside of space-time, given that dealing with this kind of thing is literally his job.

[Ramza00]

the dragon deities will join Hercules and Iceman when they go to the Disco 🪩 to see Dazzler perform her best Grace Jones impressions

[Eldan]

Yeah, agree with Rater, here. Though they do align themselves with a cosmological force called "Good", all D&D gods do, at the end, live by devouring thousands of souls, thereby erasing conscious beings from existence. All gods are, fundamentally, monsters that need to be stopped, and once they figure that out, one would hope the DC and Marvel heroes would put a stop to them.

[Bartmanhomer]

Yeah, agree with Rater, here. Though they do align themselves with a cosmological force called "Good", all D&D gods do, at the end, live by devouring thousands of souls, thereby erasing conscious beings from existence. All gods are, fundamentally, monsters that need to be stopped, and once they figure that out, one would hope the DC and Marvel heroes would put a stop to them.

Wow, I didn't know that.

[Keltest]

Wow, I didn't know that.

Probably because its not actually true. FR deities at least do not consume souls in any sense.

[Peelee]

Regardless, the end result is the same, the promise of an eternal afterlife is both a lie and a trap.

Which book claims the gods promise an eternal afterlife?

on a cosmic scale every single D&D god is a parasite.

As are humans, if you want to characterize "parasite" that way. How often do you object to eating dinner?

All gods are, fundamentally, monsters that need to be stopped

My chickens said the same thing about people.

[Mordar]

My chickens said the same thing about people.

But what do the pigs say about the matter?

- M

[Peelee]

But what do the pigs say about the matter?

- M

It's been a while, i need to refresh my Orwell.

[Lord Raziere]

My chickens said the same thing about people.

No they don't.

Don't falsely equivocate sapience with nonsapience.

[Keltest]

No they don't.

Don't falsely equivocate sapience with nonsapience.

If youre willing to allow that being a "higher level" being makes a difference, why do the gods not get a pass for being higher than humans?

[Lord Raziere]

If youre willing to allow that being a "higher level" being makes a difference, why do the gods not get a pass for being higher than humans?

Unless you can cite the exact passage in canonical DnD where Gods are explicitly stated to be a level of awareness above sapience specifically comparable specifically to animals and details how that works, No. The metaphor has to be intentional and unambiguous.

[Keltest]

Unless you can cite the exact passage in canonical DnD where Gods are explicitly stated to be a level of awareness above sapience specifically comparable specifically to animals and details how that works, No. The metaphor has to be intentional and unambiguous.

Well again, for one, deities in D&D don't eat souls. Or at least, do not do so for sustenance, just malice.

But also, this is your position. Its not my job to defend the consistency of it.

[Lord Raziere]

Well again, for one, deities in D&D don't eat souls. Or at least, do not do so for sustenance, just malice.

But also, this is your position. Its not my job to defend the consistency of it.

I am a different person than Rater, perhaps consider that your job is to differentiate who is speaking to you? My position is "comparing humans to chickens is absurd".

[Keltest]

I am a different person than Rater, perhaps consider that your job is to differentiate who is speaking to you? My position is "comparing humans to chickens is absurd".

Im aware. I am attacking that position. You have allowed that its ok to eat things for sustenance if they are inferior in your estimation. Why are gods exempt from that?

[Peelee]

No they don't.

Don't falsely equivocate sapience with nonsapience.

I'm not. I'm comparing supremacy. Gods have supremacy over mortals. And, in D&D, conveniently, just as a chicken can become awakened and gain sapiens, so too can mortals attain godhood.

It was joking earlier, but would you prefer if i had used pigs, which to our current knowledge rival chimpanzees in intelligence and are roughly on par with three-year-old children? If you want to justify humans eating creatures because they are lesser then in a universe with gods, it would seem inconsistent to claim that they are not justified in eating humans. Especially since nothing in D&D, to the best of my knowledge (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) claims souls are eternal, and the Good gods at least have the decency to treat the souls well for as long as thr soulsuare distinct. It's effectively not much differently than palliative care that the caretakers get paid for. Sure, they're getting something out of it, but that hardly makes them monsters, as you claimed.

I am a different person than Rater, perhaps consider that your job is to differentiate who is speaking to you? My position is "comparing humans to chickens is absurd".

Also your position:

Yeah, agree with Rater, here.

If you don't want to defend things others said, then don't jump on their bandwagons. You put yourself in the position of defending what Rater said, it's hardly unfair to press you on that.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not. I'm comparing supremacy. Gods have supremacy over mortals. And, in D&D, conveniently, just as a chicken can become awakened and gain sapiens, so too can mortals attain godhood.

It was joking earlier, but would you prefer if i had used pigs, which to our current knowledge rival chimpanzees in intelligence and are roughly on par with three-year-old children? If you want to justify humans eating creatures because they are lesser then in a universe with gods, it would seem inconsistent to claim that they are not justified in eating humans. Especially since nothing in D&D, to the best of my knowledge (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) claims souls are eternal, and the Good gods at least have the decency to treat the souls well for as long as thr soulsuare distinct. It's effectively not much differently than palliative care that the caretakers get paid for. Sure, they're getting something out of it, but that hardly makes them monsters, as you claimed.

Also your position:
If you don't want to defend things others said, then don't jump on their bandwagons. You put yourself in the position of defending what Rater said, it's hardly unfair to press you on that.

No.

You are not allowed to do this, it is not fair, what position I'm arguing from is not a decision you get to make, you should know better and I'm disappointed and angry that your doing this.

People are not obligated to jump on a bandwagon just because they disagree with a point your making against somebody else. Look back on the posts, I did not say I agree with Rater specifically or his position, I did not comment on it, I was commenting on YOURS.

That is not my position, I am not defending a position that you claim is factually wrong if it is. I WILL NOT be lumped in with their position if its factually wrong, for if you insist on forcing it upon me, I will insist on abandoning it. You will stop. You will acknowledge that my side, my individual is my own, that there can be more than two sides to a discussion, you acknowledge me for me and not anyone else, not even my friends, like a decent human being would. because this is not a conflict. This is not a war, there is no "sides", there is people with perspectives, and those perspectives are a spectrum, not a binary. To say there are sides or that am forced into a position to defend Rater who while my friend, is not ME, I have my own perspective, and its not obligated to be his, no matter how similar or different it is, is unnecessarily combative and inherently framing the conversation as a conflict when it isn't, this is not a competition, there are no teams for me to be on, I am not drafted into Rater's side just because you want me to. Because I refuse to drawn into a polarizing us vs them framework where violent word choices like "attack" and "defend" are used, in this conversation while you can't tell the difference between and me and Rater, and insisting that I'm jumping on a bandwagon while I've already said that I'm not is combative and a bad way to have a conversation, because you have already decided to disregard a basic clarification I just made so you can act like you control the conversation and frame in the way you want so I am forced to argue from a position I did not intend. You can either acknowledge the basic human thoughts of "a conversation can be more than two sides" and "someone criticizing me isn't necessarily defending the other person", or this conversation is over

Do.

I.

Make.

Myself.

Clear?

[Peelee]

You are not allowed to do this

I am.

it is not fair

It is.

what position I'm arguing from is not a decision you get to make

I agree. I am pointing out the position you chose to argue from, with your own words. If you dislike that, then you're free to disassociate from it. Everyone is allowed to change their minds.

or this conversation is over

You're free to end the conversation at at point.

Also, of note, everything i said except for the "you said you agreed with Rater so it's not out of hand to argue with you about that" bit was only related to things you, not Rater or anyone else, said.

[Ramza00]

so I just realized something, and I am curious on the origins of lore

which came first, the forgotten realms wall of the faithless, or the source wall of dc which has past gods and titans as the material that keeps the planes of reality the way they are ?

[Zevox]

Of note Pelee, that quote you had of someone saying they agree with rater was not from Lord Razier, but from Eldan.

so I just realized something, and I am curious on the origins of lore

which came first, the forgotten realms wall of the faithless, or the source wall of dc which has past gods and titans as the material that keeps the planes of reality the way they are ?

I don't know about the Marvel one, but the Wall of the Faithless was introduced in the Avatar series of Realms novels, published in the early 90s. One of the later ones I believe, but I'm not sure atm.

If I were betting, I'd expect the Marvel one came before that, just because a lot of weird comic stuff predates that.

[Peelee]

Of note Pelee, that quote you had of someone saying they agree with rater was not from Lord Razier, but from Eldan.

Well look at that, i should have paid more attention! Thanks, and Lord Raziere, sorry about that misattribution.

[Rater202]

If youre willing to allow that being a "higher level" being makes a difference, why do the gods not get a pass for being higher than humans?

Well for one, all evidence suggests that Gods and Mortals are equally sapient. The higher position the gods occupy is one of power and longevity, not intellect or awareness.

Given that mortals are creations of the gods made to provide worship and souls for the sustenance of themselves and the planes, the analog is less farming chickens and more cloning physically disabled but still perfectly intelligent humans to raise as cattle.

I'm pretty sure most people would consider that to be an act of Evil.

[Keltest]

Well for one, all evidence suggests that Gods and Mortals are equally sapient. The higher position the gods occupy is one of power and longevity, not intellect or awareness.

Given that mortals are creations of the gods made to provide worship and souls for the sustenance of themselves and the planes, the analog is less farming chickens and more cloning physically disabled but still perfectly intelligent humans to raise as cattle.

I'm pretty sure most people would consider that to be an act of Evil.

Only if youre defining sapience as a binary "yes/no" thing and not something with levels, which I would dispute.

Sapience is the capacity for wisdom and intelligence, and while the gods are not always statted out, in the editions where they are they are frequently explicitly superhumanly intelligent and wise, often far more so than a commoner is above a chicken. On top of that I would argue that omniscience is inherently a level above, well, non-omniscience.

[Rater202]

Only if youre defining sapience as a binary "yes/no" thing and not something with levels, which I would dispute.

Sapience is the capacity for wisdom and intelligence, and while the gods are not always statted out, in the editions where they are they are frequently explicitly superhumanly intelligent and wise, often far more so than a commoner is above a chicken. On top of that I would argue that omniscience is inherently a level above, well, non-omniscience.

A god and a mortal can hold a conversation with each other in the same language and understand each other completely.

Even if you're proposing levels of sapience, they're obviously in the same one.

Given tha mortals are created specifically so that their worship will sustain the gods and, more importantly, that their souls will be worn down to the purest essence of *Alignment* in order to expand the planes or being absorbed to sustain the gods, this is equivocable to powerful humans raising less powerful humans as cattle.

Bahumut might not literally be taking a bite out of his petitioners, but his petitions undergo death of personality and are eventually consumed to sustain and empower him all the same. As has been stated to be the fate of all petitioners in the outer planes in multiple books.

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, the D&D Dragon Gods if they behave as they do in D&D would be considered an existential threat in DC or Marvel as they need the devotion and souls of mortals to survive whereas the native deities of those realms do not.

Marvel in particular, the Dragon Gods would be looked on poorly as a significant portion of Thor's character arc over the last 60ish years is, of course, the value of humility and what it means to be a Just and Worthy God.

If one of the "Good" Dragon Gods were to justify their farming of souls and worship the way Peelee is justifying it in comparison to humans farming aminals that lack a human's level of sapience, Thor would ****ing murder them while pointing out that at least the "Evil" dragon gods admit that they're wicked.

[Peelee]

Well for one, all evidence suggests that Gods and Mortals are equally sapient. The higher position the gods occupy is one of power and longevity, not intellect or awareness.

Given that mortals are creations of the gods made to provide worship and souls for the sustenance of themselves and the planes, the analog is less farming chickens and more cloning physically disabled but still perfectly intelligent humans to raise as cattle.

I'm pretty sure most people would consider that to be an act of Evil.

Imean, it sounds like you believe if we're the top of the food chain, then it's fine to eat what's under us, but if others are at the top of the food chain, then they're parasites and it's Evil for them to eat what's under them.

Would you say that a non-sapient being would be able to grasp sapience? To understand even the very concept of it, and acknowledge that beings have it? Because, in a world with actual factual gods you can actually go and visit and chat with if you're powerful enough, and who can tell you about how they created the world, it's likely they would have aspects that you or i would not be able to even grasp, much less acknowledge, akin to how a chicken could not grasp our sapience. And, as already said, unless there's reason to believe souls are actually eternal (there is none, to the best of ny knowledge), then again, it's not all that different from palliative care.

Sure, if you characterize it as a breeding farm where we are artificially culled just because, and also toss in disabilities for some reason, then yeah, it sure seems Evil, but that's because you're thumbing the scale so hard you're liable to leave a dent in it.