Curse needs witnesses?

[Greywander]

I'm touching up my witch class in preparation to post it here on the forums, and I need a bit of guidance for how to handle on of their abilities.

Without going into too much detail, I want witches to have a late-game ability to put curses on large groups, even entire kingdoms. To end the curse, the witch has to choose to lift it, the witch must be killed, or the conditions required to break the curse must be fulfilled. And you have to set conditions to break the curse when you first pronounce it. With that in mind, it makes sense that the targets of the curse should be aware of who is cursing them, who specifically carries the curse, and what the conditions are to break the curse (and also probably what the actual effects of the curse are).

I don't want the targets of the curse to just magically know all the details, though. So it makes sense that the curse must be announced openly to at least one creature targeted by the curse. However, I also want to avoid exploits where players can kidnap someone, pronounce the curse, then kill them off so no one else knows what the curse is. So I was considering something where the curse would spread like a virus from the original witnesses to the pronouncement.

This opens up another potential exploit, though, where an authority figure can limit the curse's spread by shutting down the spread of information about the curse. So I was considering the spread to be linked to merely the potential/opportunity to share the information about the curse. However, this gets complicated when considering what does or doesn't count as an "opportunity" to share information about the curse. This isn't help by the fact that one of the curse options is literally to confuse the speech of the target. This seems like it's getting a bit too complex.

What I'd really like is some simple rule that (a) encourages the player to pronounce the curse openly and publicly, (b) discourages both the player and the targets from trying to suppress information regarding the curse, and (c) isn't some kind of handwave BS such as just magically informing everyone about the details of the curse.

PS. I really like the idea of using Skywrite as the method of pronouncing the curse, seems like a very witchy thing to do (might require repeated casts to do the full pronouncement, though). Dream is another thematic way to deliver a curse pronouncement, particularly if targeting a key figure like a king, bishop, or guild leader. One of the new witch spells is Communicate via Flames, basically that one spell from Harry Potter when Sirius talks to Harry through the fireplace, which could also be a thematic way to pronounce a curse.

[Greywander]

I think perhaps the only way to handle this in a simple way without complex rules about how a curse is applied is to rely on DM fiat. Considering that this is more of a roleplay ability anyway, I think that's not too far out, as the DM ultimately controls who meets the conditions to be afflicted by the curse anyway.

So here's what I'm thinking:

• The witch initiates the curse, expending a spell slot. They cannot regain the slot until the curse ends.
• The witch must make a good faith effort to inform the targets of the curse. This is some combination of informing enough people and informing someone of sufficient authority.
• Example metrics would be informing 10% of targets, or informing the king (e.g. if cursing a kingdom) or someone with access to the king.
• If the witch, or someone working at their behest, hinders the spread of information (directly or indirectly) then it doesn't count towards the requirement.
• At sundown, check if the requirement is met. If so, the curse goes into effect.
• If the good faith requirement is not met, then check again at the next sundown. The witch is aware if the requirements are not yet met.
• Repeat until either the good faith requirement is met, as determined by the DM, or the witch decides to stop attempting to do the curse.

I don't really like how "soft" these rules are, but I think it might be a necessity in this case. And as I said, the DM controls who meets the requirements to be cursed anyway. If you curse "all who serve King Billy Bob," then the DM could decide to have you start running into people who serve random nobles looking to usurp the throne from King Billy Bob. I think it's bad DMing to circumvent your players' abilities like that (if done regularly anyway; it could make for a fun twist to do it once or twice and lead to some intrigue), but the fact is you have to trust your DM anyway for the ability to work properly.

[Herbert_W]

I can see two ways that this type of curse could be used:

• The intended effect is for the target(s) to forced to meet the curse-ending conditions, under threat of the curse. In this case the player and those affected will want the those affected to know how the curse could be ended. Information-restriction exploits are not a concern here.
• The intended effect is for the target(s) to suffer the curse. Information-restriction exploits might be a concern, but not your largest concern: you'll also see players choosing conditions that could end the curse that are deliberately impossible, worse than the curse, or redundant (such as variations on "over my dead body" which would end the curse anyways).

Personally, I'd be inclined to accept that the second use-case is going to happen and to balance your class feature around allowing it rather than trying to set up enough roadblocks to prevent it.

I'd still consider adding twists that make the second use-case less straightforwards, though. You might make the witch unable to lie about the curse for as long as it lasts: if they try, they accidentally blurt out the truth instead. You might make the witch unable to voluntarily end the curse except by causing the curse-ending conditions to be met.

[Greywander]

I'd still consider adding twists that make the second use-case less straightforwards, though. You might make the witch unable to lie about the curse for as long as it lasts: if they try, they accidentally blurt out the truth instead. You might make the witch unable to voluntarily end the curse except by causing the curse-ending conditions to be met.

Huh, that's... actually surprisingly brilliant. Not being able to end the curse voluntarily, especially considering that it will expend a spell slot you can't recover until the curse ends, adds an additional twist that will make players think twice before recklessly throwing out such a curse. Though I feel like it would be trivial for the player to simply specify a condition that they can trigger any time, even something as straightforward as "when I decide to end the curse". So I'm not sure what I could do with that without imposing restrictions on the curse-breaking conditions you can set.

Not being able to lie about the curse is on point. I don't know how often you'd be questioned about the curse, as you'd be more likely to be killed than interrogated, but this at least prevents you from spreading misinformation about the curse.

This does sound like a better route to take with an ability like this. I'll give some more thought to twists and restriction that can be put into place without limiting the scope of the ability.

[Herbert_W]

Though I feel like it would be trivial for the player to simply specify a condition that they can trigger any time, even something as straightforward as "when I decide to end the curse". So I'm not sure what I could do with that without imposing restrictions on the curse-breaking conditions you can set.

You're right, that is a problem.

A useful starting point might be to think about how you want the ability to affect the narrartive. What works of fiction are you drawing inspiration from?

Sleeping Beauty comes readily to my mind as a prototypical example of a witch casting a curse. The story has several variations, and in the one that I remember best, the curse-ending condition was not something chosen by the witch. If she could, she would have chosen one that's deliberately impossible. The effect wasn't chosen either: the witch wanted the princess to suffer instant death, but this was reduced to a deep sleep (becasue . . . well, either a good witch interfered, or the bad witch's magic wasn't so hot.)

This suggests a mechanic:

• When you attempt to place a curse, you make a skill check. (Knowledge, say?)
• If the condition is something that the target could bring about easily, the check is easier. If the condition would require great sacrifice or a great deed from the target, the check is moderately hard. If the condition is practically or actually impossible for the target to make happen, or worse than the curse, then the check is so hard as to be nearly impossible (given bounded accuracy, if this is 5e).
• The effect of the curse may also determine the DC: the worse the curse, the harder it is to place.
• If you succeed, the curse works as you intend.
• If you fail, something about the curse changes. This is chosen "randomly" by the DM, and could include a reduced effect (sleep instead of instant death, say) or a more lenient condition to end the curse (the kiss of a prince, say). You don't know what the change is until after the curse is placed.

[rel]

Though I feel like it would be trivial for the player to simply specify a condition that they can trigger any time, even something as straightforward as "when I decide to end the curse". So I'm not sure what I could do with that without imposing restrictions on the curse-breaking conditions you can set.

Nothing wrong with restrictions. How about 'The curse end condition must be something the targets can plausibly achieve'.

You could even give the curse an activation condition instead of an end condition, make it more like a geas (the mythological not the D&D variety); Violate the taboo, get smote.

This seems more useful for a PC power anyway; you force a large group to do what you want them to.
Lumberjacks cutting down your spooky woods? Anyone that fells a tree of the woods is plagued with boils.
King Farqwad filled your creepy swamp with fairy tale creatures? Curse his kingdom with locusts until such time as he is no longer king.

Ultimately, this seems like a power that will work better with softer rules, a negotiation between GM and player, that sort of thing.

[Vogie]

I love this train of thought. However, it seems you're using this for a ttrpg rather than a novel. As a forever GM, I should insist that you have some better bounds on the spells then "IDK Work it out with your DM lol". Use the Templates of Wish, Wild Magic Sorcerer or the Wand of Wonder - while the Wild Magic Surges could have just been "whatever you think, DM - it's chaos magic, go nuts", they made a d100 table that can be used. Wish is limited to 8th or lower spells OR do something along these 5 lines at your own peril.

Any given table might decide to make their own Wild Magic Surge table or Wish condition, or even just decide that they're going to all make up the things on the spot as a part of the collaborative worldbuilding. But you really should make the class/subclass have a bunch of curses to choose from and a "curse conditions table" that can be consulted. You really don't make a "rules lawyer bait" class. You also don't want their curse to be "Everyone in this kingdom will die in one month" with the solve condition being "unless you make me your undisputed monarch", or "The BBEG's plans all fail" with the solve condition of "unless they give it all up and live in a van by the river".

If you don't want specific curses to choose from, you could also use a mad-libs style of "________ cannot/must _______ unless _______ by ________" with corresponding tables to define how those blanks can be filled. If you can make a d20 list for each of those blanks, that creates a cool 160,000 potential options

You can then further upgrade the skill at higher levels with a variant of the Wild Magic Sorcerer's "Controlled Chaos" feature that allows you to roll for some or all of the blanks with advantage. Or, if you're using degrees of success, the casting of the curse itself could be a check which determines how random the curse variables could be.

Then comes the issue of Remove Curse and similar abilities. What I'd suggest is that these effects don't resolve the curse completely, but instead either suppress it temporarily, or show the caster how to go about removing the curse, rather than eradicating it completely.

[Grim Portent]

It's probably also a good idea to put an upper bound on the scale that can be effected by a curse, unless you want it to be possible to curse an entire species or even everyone in the world.

Cursing a realm the size of the Roman Empire in it's entirety is probably a bit much for example, but cursing the people of the administrative section that includes the capital is probably fine. Cursing an entire kingdom the size of Brittany or Scotland would be well within what should be doable, cursing the Holy Roman Empire might be a bit much. Past a certain point it starts to step outside of fairytale witch into malevolent god territory, and while that point is nebulous it might be worth trying to hone in on it.

[Anymage]

What level of curse are we talking about? Cursing someone with halitosis, cursing a family with eternal sleep, and cursing a region to famine are very different things.

This being a greywander topic, I wouldn't be surprised to see a curse system that took inputs like the level of spell slot spent, number of affected people told, and ease of dispelling, and used those to buy scale, severity, and duration if not dispelled. So telling everybody in the kingdom that the princess would sleep until roused by an act of true love would be necessary to put everybody in the castle to sleep indefinitely, or at least would tie up a lower level spell slot than you'd otherwise need if you were less tied to fairy tale drama tropes.

[Greywander]

What level of curse are we talking about?

Just to be clear, since a few people have mentioned it, the effects of the curse are not free-form. The entire basis of the class is that witches get a slew of curses that they can apply as additional effects on top of a few select spells, namely Bane, Hex, and Bestow Curse. All I'm doing here is extending this idea to include a niche not covered by these spells, which is to say a curse that is both long-lasting and far-reaching. For the base effect of the curse I was considering something as simple as 1d4 penalty to ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, making the targets a little worse at everything regardless of the specific curse effect you decide to apply.

I don't want to clog up this post with every possible curse effect, and anyway those are one of the things I think still needs touching up, but here's a sample of the kinds of effects that are on the table.

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Babbling Hex
Choose one language you know. The target can only speak in that language, even if they don’t know that language. This does not allow the target to understand that language if they couldn’t already, nor is the target aware that they are not speaking normally.
When the target casts a spell with verbal components, they must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw, or else they garble the components and fail to cast the spell properly.

Forgetful Hex
You create a hole in the target’s memory that blocks memories for a certain time period. The target is unable to remember anything from more than 10 minutes before. Once a memory is 1 hour old, the target is able to recall that memory again, but in most cases they won’t recall it right away. The target is unaware that its memory is being inhibited, and will attribute their poor memory to mere forgetfulness.
When you inflict this hex upon a creature, you can choose one spell that you think the target can cast. If the target is able to cast that spell, you wipe the spell from the creature’s memory while this hex is in effect, preventing them from casting that spell. If the target isn’t able to cast the spell you’ve chosen, the DM will instead erase a random spell from the target’s memory.

Restless Hex
A restless feeling comes over the target, making it difficult for them to stay still. On each of its turns, the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or use their movement to move out of their space.
The target finds it difficult to rest or sleep. At the end of a rest, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or else it is unable to benefit from the rest.

Watching Hex
The unsettling feeling of being watched falls over the target. In their paranoia, the target becomes distrustful, imposing disadvantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks made against them. The target also has disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and can’t benefit from being invisible.
This is because, of course, they are in fact being watched. By you. No matter how far away the target is, or what might be between you, you can always see the target as if they were right next to you. You aren’t able to perceive anything else about their surroundings, but you can see and hear them clearly.

Edit: Now that I think about it, a lot of these effects go from being annoying and inconvenient when applied to a single or a few characters to being a threat to national security when applied on the level of a kingdom. Imagine everyone in a country just suddenly being unable to speak normally, or having substantial portions of the population fail to get any rest during the night and how that would impact their productivity the next day.

make it more like a geas (the mythological not the D&D variety); Violate the taboo, get smote.

Oh, this is actually a super interesting idea. Geas is already on their spell list, I can add a feature that allows them to add a curse effect to Geas if/when it triggers. There is a question of duration, since the damage is normally an instantaneous effect, but since Geas can't trigger more than once a day it makes sense for the curse to simply last the rest of the current day. I'll definitely look into this a bit more.

It's probably also a good idea to put an upper bound on the scale that can be effected by a curse,
[...]
Past a certain point it starts to step outside of fairytale witch into malevolent god territory, and while that point is nebulous it might be worth trying to hone in on it.

I feel like you're just describing tier 4 characters in general. But hmm, now that I think about it, the speed of escalation in tier 3 could be an issue. The current degree of escalation made more sense as a capstone you didn't even get until 20th level. I'll reassess these numbers, including the final cap.

This being a greywander topic, I wouldn't be surprised to see a curse system that took inputs like the level of spell slot spent, number of affected people told, and ease of dispelling, and used those to buy scale, severity, and duration if not dispelled. So telling everybody in the kingdom that the princess would sleep until roused by an act of true love would be necessary to put everybody in the castle to sleep indefinitely, or at least would tie up a lower level spell slot than you'd otherwise need if you were less tied to fairy tale drama tropes.

Lol, you know me too well. But no, I'm trying to aim for something simple and elegant here (though the "simple" part is debatable). After all, this is just one part of one part of a single class, not an entire subsystem.

But you know, if it were an entire subsystem...
Starts taking notes

[rel]

You could even give the curse an activation condition instead of an end condition, make it more like a geas (the mythological not the D&D variety); Violate the taboo, get smote.

Oh, this is actually a super interesting idea. Geas is already on their spell list, I can add a feature that allows them to add a curse effect to Geas if/when it triggers. There is a question of duration, since the damage is normally an instantaneous effect, but since Geas can't trigger more than once a day it makes sense for the curse to simply last the rest of the current day. I'll definitely look into this a bit more.

I modified 3.5 Geas to be closer to the mythological version, perhaps you can apply a similar change to the spell in your own game. Or leave the spell and make a class feature with a similar function:

Spoiler

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Lesser Geas
Enchantment [Language-Dependent]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature with 7 HD or less
Duration: See text (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer Hit Dice and be able to understand you. The Geas is not mind control, the subject still has free will including the will to refuse your request. Instead, the Geas uses the threat of a powerful curse to compel action.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through their own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level.

Requests that would result in certain death cause the spell to fail.

A clever recipient can subvert poorly worded instructions.

The subject can choose to disobey the geas at any time but whenever a conscious and firm choice to do so is made by the subject it immediately suffers a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. These penalties are cumulative and can stack up to a total of a -8 penalty to each score but no ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. Also, the target can suffer no more than one -2 penalty to its ability scores in a 24 hour period.
The ability score penalties are removed after the subject obeys the lesser geas for a full 24 hours.

As soon as the spell is cast the subject is aware of the sorcerous nature of the lesser geas and the general price but not the specific penalty for disobedience. Further the subject can perfectly recall the exact wording of the lesser geas for its duration and is aware of the spell as long as it remains in effect.

[Grim Portent]

What about a rule that allows the Witch to make one no-conflict appearance to pronounce the curse in person? Maleficent sort of thing, enter the throne room in a burst of eldritch flames, make the pronouncement, turn into a winged creature and fly out the window without anyone landing a blow sort of thing. Witch is never meaningfully there other than to declare the curse and get a little hammy acting in.

Something like: The Witch may make an appearance before the primary recipient of the curse in person, provided they have met or the witch has been to the location they will appear before, arriving and departing within the span of the same scene in a suitably theatrical manner of their choosing. During this pronouncement the Witch cannot cause harm to anyone, nor be harmed by anyone, with the recipients and any onlookers acting shocked, awed or terrified in their presence. The Witch cannot leave the room they arrived in to make the pronouncement, and must make the pronouncement and leave without otherwise interacting with the area or characters in it. The curse takes effect immediately upon the conclusion of this pronouncement.

It's incredibly gamey, I don't think I'd use something like it without a bunch more tweaking, but it lends itself well to the drama side of a witch's curse and bypasses other game conventions and the usual player paranoia that makes someone unlikely to do big dramatic flourishes like it.

[Vaern]

There's a section in 3rd edition's Book of Vile Darkness on curse variants. This includes alternative effects for the Bestow Curse and Bestow Greater Curse spells, dying curses that allow evil creatures to afflict their foes with devastating curse effect with their dying breath, and family curses that pass from one generation to the next. Dying curses and family curses are noted as having a built-in condition to undo the curse, but I don't think it actually says that the subjects of the curse must be informed of this condition.

I'd say don't worry so much about having your witches directly inform their targets unless doing so fits the scene organically. The effect of the curse should be stated as a verbal component, but the condition under which the curse can be removed could be inferred from context. Witches tend to curse people who have wronged them. Those people tend to know what they've done wrong. Curses tend to be broken by correcting those wrongdoings. Issues arise when people don't realize that the person they've wronged is actually a witch, when they write off the curse that the witch utters at them as superstitious nonsense, and when they shrug off the immediate effects of the curse as being coincidence, but eventually they should realize that they have in fact been cursed and should have some personal knowledge of what they did to incur the witch's wrath to begin with. If the cursed individual has forgotten how they crossed the witch by that point, perhaps they eventually track her down and beg to have the curse removed, at which point she has the opportunity to say outright, "You are doomed to suffer until you return what is owed to me," or what have you.

If all else fails, you can create another type of character specifically to fill this gap in your curse mechanics. When it comes to breaking mysterious curses, a story might have its heroes seek out an oracle who can detect curses and deliver a prophecy regarding how the curse can be lifted. Sometimes a cursed individual is too ashamed of how he earned his curse to tell the story to whatever ragtag band of adventurers happens to stumble in - for example, a king has backed out of a promise to a witch and proven himself a coward, thus dooming his kingdom to unending famine until he can either redeem himself or openly admit his cowardice to his people - so having an oracle type of character who is capable of unraveling a curse's secrets might be a necessity in some cases even if the witch does explicitly tell her victims how to remove the curse.

[herrhauptmann]

Would it be okay to have the curse limited to the reach of your voice, or is that too limited? You could expand it a bit with a shout spell or just holding a megaphone.

Personally I like setting seemingly impossible conditions that can be subverted in weird ways.
Like the witch in A Game of Thrones.
1. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. Dorne (symbol the sun) rises in rebellion from the western edge of the country. While the sun and heir dies in the far east.
2. When your womb quickens and you bear a living child again. Dany was loyal to Drogo who still lived but couldn't father children after his lobotomy. She'd have to cheat on him to get pregnant, which she wouldn't do.
3. When the seas go dry. The dothraki sea is a vast plain of grass.

In Gargoyles, they were supposed to be stone forever, but the curse was adjusted to "When the castle rises above the clouds." Commander Riker bought, dismantled, and rebuilt the castle on top of a skyscraper to break the curse.

Stardust. "When two fridays are together in a week." A man with the surname Friday got married on a Friday, which broke the curse. He wasn't aware of the curse, being from the normal world, but it was still enough.


Anyway, major curses, especially death curses at an execution or something are the sort of thing that enter into folklore. Particularly when they involve an entire country or the royal family. It might not be something the recipient will hear about normally, but when times are bad like a famine or plague? The superstitious will always be talking about it. Women gossiping while getting water at the well. Drunks at the bar. Some wizened sage. That sort of thing you can get with a Gather Information check or a Legend Lore spell.