10 minute barbarian rage is completely incoherent

[Dr.Samurai]

It's less my interpretation and more how rage is actually defined, so it's an explanation for the disconnect that has prompted this entire thread.

I understand your point, but I take that to mean that people simply use "rage" to mean "anger". One effect of the internet is the spread of exaggerated language. This would be an example of that. "My boss yelled at me today" is another, where what the person means to say is "My boss reprimanded me today".

Anyways, I agree with Easy E's take on this and reiterate that my "raging" barbarians are usually not even angry lol.

[Darth Credence]

Language changes and evolves, and if there are 2.5 million hits for seething rage, then seething rage is a thing no matter how much one wants to cling to a dictionary definition.

There is little difference between this and complaining that "ain't" or "irregardless" isn't a word.

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't think that anyone is being petty or pedantic here.

Unless your point is that Rage *can't* mean uncontrollable fits of extreme anger and/or violence, then someone might still be confused about how a 10 minute long Rage is supposed to work in the context of D&D (sitting through social interactions, sneaking through dungeons, etc.).

So I agree that you can play it the way you're saying, and I have also added that I don't even describe it as a rage at all when I play it. But the fact remains that there is a definition that is not out of use, and that might cause some confusion.

[Psyren]

That whole time, the barb is just stewing in the back, grinding their teeth for 10 minutes, maximizing the rage duration and hoping for another str roll.

If the ability isn't RAGE then don't call it RAGE.

It's up to you if you want to limit the flavor that way, but the Barbarian entry explicitly tells you not to:

Far more than a mere emotion, and not limited to anger or fury, a Barbarian’s Rage is an incarnation of a predator’s ferocity, a storm’s unrelenting assault, and the churning turmoil of the sea.

Some Barbarians personify their Rage as a fierce spirit or revered forebear. Others see it as a connection to the pain and anguish of the world, as an impersonal tangle of wild magic, or as an expression of their own deepest self. For every Barbarian, their Rage is a power that fuels not just battle prowess but also uncanny reflexes and heightened senses.

"That's my secret, Cap. I'm always angry."

Banner doesn't seem angry most of the time, but he says he is, so he has that rage going non-stop. And back during that time, he would turn back to Banner if he tamped it down enough, but he spent substantially longer than 10 minutes in Hulk form in Avengers. And he wasn't constantly fighting - there would have been more than enough time to fall out if he had to be fighting when he found Loki and called him a puny god.

I just don't see a 10-minute rage as being unlikely or unprecedented, in real life or fictional characters.

Banner is indeed angry all the time. Nobody loathes Banner's existence more than Banner himself does; remember, Hulk doesn't even let him unalive himself, and he's tried.

With that said - Barbarian Rage in D&D is, as mentioned above, more than just anger (seething or otherwise.)

[Schwann145]

The Rage description reads to me like:

"Even we can't be bothered to actually define this feature we designed, so just push your benefit button and justify it however you want."

Understandable, but from the developer, disappointing.

[Joshthemanwich]

I have seen family get pretty darn angry at people, even at points letting it consume them. The "Rage" may only last a moment, but then it can temper into a focused hate. I tend to see the Barbarian's Rage through a similar lens, it begins with the rage and ends as a focused anger. That why the Barbarian remains in control, they are focused on the fight not blundering there way through.

[Dr.Samurai]

The Rage description reads to me like:

"Even we can't be bothered to actually define this feature we designed, so just push your benefit button and justify it however you want."

Understandable, but from the developer, disappointing.

Yeah. I also take it to mean it's not just anger and fury because it will make you fly and grow a tail and shoot lightning bolts.

As opposed to "it can literally be anything".

[Skrum]

I'm playing a "barb" right now who is a chef and most of his barb and rogue abilities (wild magic rage, bolstering magic, psionic power) have been reflavored to be a kind of subtle, food-based magic. I'm far from unfamiliar with taking liberties in describing a character's powers.

My point with this thread though is the printed class itself is all but abandoning coherence. Like, "rage" is now (well, going to be) something that the barb just taps into, whether they're in combat or not, in order to fuel their class powers. Not only is this extremely poor design (considering the uses/day and other vagaries of how rage can be lost), but it just make me scratch my head over what this ability even is. It's still called rage! It still has some vague connection to an actual berserker, along the lines of The Northman's Alexander Skarsgard hallucinating, howling like an animal, and throwing himself heedlessly into battle. But it's also...just loosely the power behind the entire class, and is being used as a catch-all for anything the barb might want to do. There's no reason the barb class needs to be structured this way. Rage can be exactly that; RAGE, some kind of power the class taps into in a fight specifically. Why are they shoehorning an entire suite of abilities through this one little doorway.

[DarknessEternal]

The name of a mechanic has no impact on the flavor of a mechanic. The latter is up to the players.

[Psyren]

The Rage description reads to me like:

"Even we can't be bothered to actually define this feature we designed, so just push your benefit button and justify it however you want."

Understandable, but from the developer, disappointing.

They did define it, just not as narrowly as you seem to want. (For which I'm glad.)

My point with this thread though is the printed class itself is all but abandoning coherence. Like, "rage" is now (well, going to be) something that the barb just taps into, whether they're in combat or not, in order to fuel their class powers. Not only is this extremely poor design (considering the uses/day and other vagaries of how rage can be lost), but it just make me scratch my head over what this ability even is. It's still called rage! It still has some vague connection to an actual berserker, along the lines of The Northman's Alexander Skarsgard hallucinating, howling like an animal, and throwing himself heedlessly into battle. But it's also...just loosely the power behind the entire class, and is being used as a catch-all for anything the barb might want to do. There's no reason the barb class needs to be structured this way. Rage can be exactly that; RAGE, some kind of power the class taps into in a fight specifically. Why are they shoehorning an entire suite of abilities through this one little doorway.

I'd rather just rename it (if the name bothered me, that is) than redesign the entire class to have multiple power sources. Barbarians are supposed to be straightforward.

Regarding the bold - the fact that it lasts 10 minutes per use and you recover a use on a SR means you'll have to really try hard to run out of rage now I'd say. And it's not like you needed it in every combat to begin with.

[Skrum]

The name of a mechanic has no impact on the flavor of a mechanic. The latter is up to the players.

While I do play this way, I don't entirely buy this. The classes are presented with (what should be) a usable narrative. The classes have names, the abilities granted have names, there's narrative explanation for what the ability looks like or does. Every ability starts with at least a sentence describing what the ability is. It's not just mechanics.

[Skrum]

Regarding the bold - the fact that it lasts 10 minutes per use and you recover a use on a SR means you'll have to really try hard to run out of rage now I'd say.

Can it still be ended if you're incapacitated, or otherwise prevented from taking actions? Does it end if you hit zero?

And it's not like you needed it in every combat to begin with.

I'm really beginning to wonder if your table ever faces anything more threatening than CR 2's

[Psyren]

I'm really beginning to wonder if your table ever faces anything more threatening than CR 2's

And I'm wondering if yours ever does anything less than Deadly

Can it still be ended if you're incapacitated, or otherwise prevented from taking actions? Does it end if you hit zero?

It ends if you're incapacitated. It also lasts until the end of your next turn each time you extend it (by attacking, causing an enemy to make a saving throw, or taking a bonus action), so if you're prevented from taking actions on a given round, you or your allies have 1 round to get rid of whatever is impeding you.

[Kane0]

I lean into the primal flavor rather than the emotional state. Rage is just a convenient label for channeling primal power. The term 'rage' just superficially conveys how it appears to others or the process the user goes through in order to tap into that primal 'state'

[Skrum]

And I'm wondering if yours ever does anything less than Deadly

No, probably not. There's some other factors involved (like game scheduling leading to frequent "long rests," or time between games). Lots of quite good magic items. In general though it takes a "deadly" encounter to even ruffle the PC's feathers. Medium or hard encounter, why did we even roll initiative.

It ends if you're incapacitated. It also lasts until the end of your next turn each time you extend it (by attacking, causing an enemy to make a saving throw, or taking a bonus action), so if you're prevented from taking actions on a given round, you or your allies have 1 round to get rid of whatever is impeding you.

Rage is def going to be much less likely to randomly lose, that's good.

[Psyren]

No, probably not. There's some other factors involved (like game scheduling leading to frequent "long rests," or time between games). Lots of quite good magic items. In general though it takes a "deadly" encounter to even ruffle the PC's feathers. Medium or hard encounter, why did we even roll initiative.

Noted, and unsurprised. But as I've said in other threads, that makes your table an outlier, especially by the designers' printed expectations.

I have to ask though - how do current Barbarians work at your table? Rage only lasts a minute and you don't recover any on a short rest - if you need it for every fight and it drops regularly, do you even get to use it outside of combat then?

[Skrum]

I have to ask though - how do current Barbarians work at your table? Rage only lasts a minute and you don't recover any on a short rest - if you need it for every fight and it drops regularly, do you even get to use it outside of combat then?

They work alright. I mean, by level 6 a barb has 4 uses of rage - the vast majority of the time, that's absolutely plenty of uses to rage in every combat. IMO, barbs work well (i.e., as advertised) as long as nearly all the damage they take is a type they're resistant to, and they don't have to make mental saves.

It's not like rage gets dropped ALL THE TIME either - it's relatively rare. But, that doesn't mean it isn't a fragile thing. For instance, we will occasionally have locked, multipart games that function much more similarly to a "traditional" game. There might be 3, 4, even 5 notable combats without a long rest. That's were using rage gets tough. The player knows they're gonna have to be strategic, but it's sometimes hard to tell when a combat starts if this is rage-worthy or not. Or maybe a tough combat starts, the barb rages, and then gets hit with hyponotic pattern. Rage drops, and they have to spend another use when the spell is broken.

All these factors add up to what I think the final word on barbs is: they're fragile. Not in the hit point sense, but in that they are quite reliant on enemies playing directly into their strengths (attacking with b, p, s damage, not hitting them with mental saves, not beating their initiative and taking half their hit points before the barb can act, not flying....). When the barb is working, they're trucks. But things go a little wrong and they're suddenly low AC damage magnets with no tools.

Using rage outside of combat, never. Ever ever lol. Part of it is skills aren't all that impactful, part of it no barb player would risk spending a rage like that.

[Kane0]

Homebrew on the table?

Spoiler: I didnt quite like the 5.5e Barbarian

Show

Rage (1st)
As a Bonus Action, you can imbue yourself with primal power for ten minutes. While active, your Rage has the following effects:
- Damage Reduction: Each time you take Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage you reduce the amount taken by an amount equal to your rage bonus, to a minimum of 0.
- Strength rolls: You add your Rage bonus to any Strength Attacks, Saving Throws and damage rolls
- No Concentration or Spells: You cannot maintain Concentration and you cannot cast spells
You can choose to end your Rage as a bonus action, and your Rage ends early if you are Incapacitated.
You can enter your Rage twice between rests, and beginning at 15th level you can enter it three times between rests. You regain your expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Rage Bonus
1st: +2
6th: +3
11th: +4
16th: +5

Danger Sense (1st)
You can add your Rage bonus to your Dexterity saving throws and Unarmored AC. You lose this bonus if you are Blinded, Deafened or Incapacitated.

Reckless Attack (2nd)
When you make your first attack roll on your turn, you can choose to gain Advantage on Strength attacks until the start of your next turn, but attack rolls against you have Advantage during that time.

Primal Knowledge (3rd)
Choose two skills from the list of skills available to Barbarians at level 1. You add your Rage bonus to checks you make using those skills.

Instinctive Pounce (7th)
You add your Rage bonus to Initiative checks, and when you enter Rage you can also move up to half your speed as part of the same Bonus Action

Brutal Strikes (11th)
Once per turn, when you have advantage on a strength attack and both rolls would hit you can add extra damage to the attack equal to your Barbarian level

Relentless Rage (13th)
Your Rage no longer ends early if you are incapacitated, and while Raging you can add your Rage bonus to all saving throws instead of just Strength and Dexterity.

Peak Physique (17th)
When you roll a Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check and the result is lower than your Barbarian level, you can use your Barbarian level as the result instead.

Could probably still use some more out of combat stuff, but at least Rage is more usable and you arent useless when not raging.

[Psyren]

Using rage outside of combat, never. Ever ever lol. Part of it is skills aren't all that impactful, part of it no barb player would risk spending a rage like that.

Their goal seems to be to change that calculus.

Homebrew on the table?

Spoiler: I didnt quite like the 5.5e Barbarian

Show

Rage (1st)
As a Bonus Action, you can imbue yourself with primal power for ten minutes. While active, your Rage has the following effects:
- Damage Reduction: Each time you take Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage you reduce the amount taken by an amount equal to your rage bonus, to a minimum of 0.
- Strength rolls: You add your Rage bonus to any Strength Attacks, Saving Throws and damage rolls
- No Concentration or Spells: You cannot maintain Concentration and you cannot cast spells
You can choose to end your Rage as a bonus action, and your Rage ends early if you are Incapacitated.
You can enter your Rage twice between rests, and beginning at 15th level you can enter it three times between rests. You regain your expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Rage Bonus
1st: +2
6th: +3
11th: +4
16th: +5

Danger Sense (1st)
You can add your Rage bonus to your Dexterity saving throws and Unarmored AC. You lose this bonus if you are Blinded, Deafened or Incapacitated.

Reckless Attack (2nd)
When you make your first attack roll on your turn, you can choose to gain Advantage on Strength attacks until the start of your next turn, but attack rolls against you have Advantage during that time.

Primal Knowledge (3rd)
Choose two skills from the list of skills available to Barbarians at level 1. You add your Rage bonus to checks you make using those skills.

Instinctive Pounce (7th)
You add your Rage bonus to Initiative checks, and when you enter Rage you can also move up to half your speed as part of the same Bonus Action

Brutal Strikes (11th)
Once per turn, when you have advantage on a strength attack and both rolls would hit you can add extra damage to the attack equal to your Barbarian level

Relentless Rage (13th)
Your Rage no longer ends early if you are incapacitated, and while Raging you can add your Rage bonus to all saving throws instead of just Strength and Dexterity.

Peak Physique (17th)
When you roll a Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check and the result is lower than your Barbarian level, you can use your Barbarian level as the result instead.

Could probably still use some more out of combat stuff, but at least Rage is more usable and you arent useless when not raging.

Er... "more usable?" You take between -2 to -5 less damage per hit over your entire career, as well as losing your damage bonus, but still suffer advantage to all incoming attacks? And did you mean to remove Unarmored Defense in favor of the tiny AC bonus while unarmored?

[Snails]

IMO any player option who's core identity is directly tied to a set duration is going to be a mess. DND hasn't handled time well since 2e.

You could probably map 90% of the issues with 5e back to this.

I did not think about it that way, but I have been edging to your conclusion. I want to revamp the Barbarian and emphasize Reckless Attack as their core ability, and have improvements at higher levels.
Rage becomes something more varying and tied to subclass. In a similar vein, I was also thinking that the Ranger's core ability is Hunter's Mark and should not even require a spell slot.

[Kane0]

Er... "more usable?" You take between -2 to -5 less damage per hit over your entire career, as well as losing your damage bonus, but still suffer advantage to all incoming attacks? And did you mean to remove Unarmored Defense in favor of the tiny AC bonus while unarmored?

Yes, more usable. Instead of twice per long rest, its twice per short rest (more later) and only ends early if you are incapacitated or choose to. The price paid for this is downgrading the resistance to a HAM style of damage reduction, however this flat bonus stacks with other sources of resistance, advantage, etc, and applies to the damage if all strength-based attacks melee or ranged.
As you level you can apply your rage bonus to more and more things, often not even needing you to be raging to get (like two skills and initiative).

The Rage bonus to unarmored AC still applies if you have a shield, but otherwise replaces your need to invest in both Dex + Con in order to benefit from, and in fact still adds to your AC if you get unarmored AC from monk.

[Schwann145]

I mean, if we're just gonna be honest about it, Rage doesn't make sense as a "rest" mechanic anyway.

A temporary burst of "primal whatever" (that comes along with all the baggage of anger... such as no concentration or ability to cast spells), but you can only do it twice(+) per day?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: PF2 did Rage so much better.

[Ignimortis]

Of course it's incoherent. It's called Rage, not Mild Annoyance. Frothing at the mouth and stuff.

On a more serious note, I think 5e's obsession with making everything rest-based is weird. Rage is that thing where it makes no goshdarned sense to use that. You can Rage for X rounds up to a maximum of your CON score (not mod, score), then you're fatigued for, say, X*2 rounds, then you can Rage again. Simple, elegant, makes the most amount of sense to me.

[Mastikator]

Homebrew on the table?

Spoiler: I didnt quite like the 5.5e Barbarian

Show

Rage (1st)
As a Bonus Action, you can imbue yourself with primal power for ten minutes. While active, your Rage has the following effects:
- Damage Reduction: Each time you take Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage you reduce the amount taken by an amount equal to your rage bonus, to a minimum of 0.
- Strength rolls: You add your Rage bonus to any Strength Attacks, Saving Throws and damage rolls
- No Concentration or Spells: You cannot maintain Concentration and you cannot cast spells
You can choose to end your Rage as a bonus action, and your Rage ends early if you are Incapacitated.
You can enter your Rage twice between rests, and beginning at 15th level you can enter it three times between rests. You regain your expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Rage Bonus
1st: +2
6th: +3
11th: +4
16th: +5

Danger Sense (1st)
You can add your Rage bonus to your Dexterity saving throws and Unarmored AC. You lose this bonus if you are Blinded, Deafened or Incapacitated.

Reckless Attack (2nd)
When you make your first attack roll on your turn, you can choose to gain Advantage on Strength attacks until the start of your next turn, but attack rolls against you have Advantage during that time.

Primal Knowledge (3rd)
Choose two skills from the list of skills available to Barbarians at level 1. You add your Rage bonus to checks you make using those skills.

Instinctive Pounce (7th)
You add your Rage bonus to Initiative checks, and when you enter Rage you can also move up to half your speed as part of the same Bonus Action

Brutal Strikes (11th)
Once per turn, when you have advantage on a strength attack and both rolls would hit you can add extra damage to the attack equal to your Barbarian level

Relentless Rage (13th)
Your Rage no longer ends early if you are incapacitated, and while Raging you can add your Rage bonus to all saving throws instead of just Strength and Dexterity.

Peak Physique (17th)
When you roll a Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check and the result is lower than your Barbarian level, you can use your Barbarian level as the result instead.

Could probably still use some more out of combat stuff, but at least Rage is more usable and you arent useless when not raging.

I really like everything I'm seeing, except for the lack of resistance, it's easier and better. Also 9th and and 18th levels are dead levels in this version. (I assume primal champion still gives +4 strength/con and unlimited rages?)

Spoiler: I'll add

Show

Unstoppable (9th)
If you are reduced to 0 HP but don't outright die you regain hit points equal to barbarian + constitution score. Once you used this feature you must complete a long rest to use it again.

Seething intensity (9th)
Choose one skill that you are not adding your rage bonus to, you add your rage bonus to that skill.

Indomitable might (18th)
When you enter rage choose one damage type that you get resistance to from rage, you now gain immunity to that damage type instead. Once per round when you damage a creature you can add your rage bonus, the damage is the same as the one you are immune to from this feature.

[Psyren]

Yes, more usable. Instead of twice per long rest, its twice per short rest (more later) and only ends early if you are incapacitated or choose to. The price paid for this is downgrading the resistance to a HAM style of damage reduction, however this flat bonus stacks with other sources of resistance, advantage, etc, and applies to the damage if all strength-based attacks melee or ranged.
As you level you can apply your rage bonus to more and more things, often not even needing you to be raging to get (like two skills and initiative).

The Rage bonus to unarmored AC still applies if you have a shield, but otherwise replaces your need to invest in both Dex + Con in order to benefit from, and in fact still adds to your AC if you get unarmored AC from monk.

2-5 damage per hit over 16 levels is not nearly enough of a reduction, especially when you're regularly giving enemies advantage to hit you. At CR 9 when you're knocking off 3 points of damage for example, a single Treant is hitting your barbarian for 10 more damage every round than a standard one not counting any reactions, and a Glabrezu is hitting you even harder than that. Two levels later when you're reducing by 4, a Roc is hitting you for an extra 20 damage per round. "Other sources of resistance" like what exactly? BPS are the most common damage types in the game, and barbarians aren't exactly spoiled for choice.

Reckless Attack is the only source of advantage on their attacks that they need. And your version of Brutal Strikes is a "win-more" feature - the only enemies it will trigger reliably against are the ones where you probably didn't need the damage boost anyway.

[Skrum]

I agree; reducing damage by 2-5 is nothing.

Reduce ALL damage taken by 2x rage bonus, along with an uncanny dodge type reaction (starting at 6 maybe), now we might be talking

[Kane0]

I really like everything I'm seeing, except for the lack of resistance, it's easier and better.

2-5 damage per hit over 16 levels is not nearly enough of a reduction, especially when you're regularly giving enemies advantage to hit you.

I agree; reducing damage by 2-5 is nothing.

Noted. Something that can be tackled with the subclasses methinks.

Also 9th and and 18th levels are dead levels in this version. (I assume primal champion still gives +4 strength/con and unlimited rages?)

Spoiler: I'll add

Show

Unstoppable (9th)
If you are reduced to 0 HP but don't outright die you regain hit points equal to barbarian + constitution score. Once you used this feature you must complete a long rest to use it again.

Seething intensity (9th)
Choose one skill that you are not adding your rage bonus to, you add your rage bonus to that skill.

Indomitable might (18th)
When you enter rage choose one damage type that you get resistance to from rage, you now gain immunity to that damage type instead. Once per round when you damage a creature you can add your rage bonus, the damage is the same as the one you are immune to from this feature.

Theres other stuff I didnt mention because I thought it wasnt important in relation to rage, but if theres interest ill post it. Neat ideas though, they might well be incorporated down the line.

[Damon_Tor]

Call it "adrenaline rush" and be done with it.

[Potato_Priest]

I think the barbarian's identity is really weird already, especially when you consider their role in comparison to the fighter or the paladin.

You have two characters, one a frothing, next-to-naked beserker with a greataxe (barbarian), the other a knight clad in gleaming plate armor (paladin or fighter).

Which one do you expect to be doing more damage? Probably the beserker.
Which one can actually do more damage? Probably the knight.

Which one do you expect to be able to take more hits? Probably the plate armor guy.
Which one can actually take more hits? Almost certainly the naked beserker.

[Slipjig]

It ends if you're incapacitated. It also lasts until the end of your next turn each time you extend it (by attacking, causing an enemy to make a saving throw, or taking a bonus action), so if you're prevented from taking actions on a given round, you or your allies have 1 round to get rid of whatever is impeding you.

I add a houserule that, "if a Barb spends their turn attempting to close with an enemy in a vigorous physical activity, their Rage does not end". So Dashing toward an enemy or lifting a gate your enemy is behind would let you extend, but attempting to Hide generally would not.

I understand anger comes in many different flavors, but the definition of the word "Rage" is "violent, uncontrollable anger". The spouse waiting for her husband to drink the poisoned coffee may be incredibly angry, but she isn't raging.

Also "seething" means "filled with intense but unexpressed anger". You can seethe, or you can rage, but "seething rage" is an oxymoron.