Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)

[Cikomyr2]

Doing what's right meaning being strong... like the Empire is? Because we're back to might makes right here.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you just write you point or argument without begging the question, so i can read and accept or refute it, instead of playing 20 questions?

[Keltest]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you just write you point or argument without begging the question, so i can read and accept or refute it, instead of playing 20 questions?

My point is that Ulfric is hypocritical. The basis of his claim is might makes right (Galmar explicitly says as much when you kill Tullius) but you're sitting here decrying the Empire for being too mighty for the Nords to just unilaterally abandon. I think it's clear that Ulfric is just making a power play. He had too many alternatives to push his stated goals for his civil war to be anything else. There's a lot of innocent blood on his hands, Torygg's most of all, and even if the Empire isn't saintly, they're doing it mostly because they are being forced to by a hostile outside power that they're trying to subvert rather than all the awful things Ulfric does on his own initiative.

[Cikomyr2]

My point is that Ulfric is hypocritical. The basis of his claim is might makes right (Galmar explicitly says as much when you kill Tullius) but you're sitting here decrying the Empire for being too mighty for the Nords to just unilaterally abandon.

So, first of all the main thing i am decrying the Empire is being weak, corrupt and on the downward slide.

But the point i made earlier about the absolutist legal structure of the Empire, is not that it is fundamentally immoral, because the question of the game is not about if the Empire can be "reformed". Its not about building proper representation of the provinces in the central political heart. Its about simply breaking off.

The Empire always has been - with the exception of Morrowind - a traditional and nonwritten rule system of governance when it comes to ruling its provinces. Its about power projection first and foremost, and beside the threat of imperial army showing up - or the threat of the imperial army not showing up when you need it - that ultimately keeps the provinces loyal to Cyrodill.

But the Cyrodill hasnt ruled through force alone. I know mostly that there is a treaty legitimized the membership of Morrowind as part of the Septim Empire, and i would guess Skyrim always felt fundamentally part of the Septim Empire because their Emperor-founder was one of them and respected their tradition.

Subsequent Septim Emperors kept going and even anointed Talos to godhood, which was very popular and central to the sense of Nord's identity as part of the Empire. When Emperor Medes II signed the Concordat, he broke the old covenant that was the soft cultural compromise made by Cyrodill to Skyrim for their loyalty. That is the argument Ulfric makes. Its not about the power relationship between a ruler and their vassal, its about the pretense its about more than a mere "we send our youth to die for you in an army you will use to defend our borders, along with taxes to finance your fancy palace".

Giving up on Talos, even low key going hush hush behind doors, is an insult to the reason Skyrim has been loyal to Cyrodill for so long.

To add injury to the Insult, 25 years ago Medes GAVE UP the province of Hammerfell, which have managed to hold off the forces of the Dominion on their own without the central power structure. At this point, Cyrodill looks like a liability more than a reliable overlord. Cyrodill will just send more Nords to die.

I think it's clear that Ulfric is just making a power play. He had too many alternatives to push his stated goals for his civil war to be anything else. There's a lot of innocent blood on his hands, Torygg's most of all, and even if the Empire isn't saintly, they're doing it mostly because they are being forced to by a hostile outside power that they're trying to subvert rather than all the awful things Ulfric does on his own initiative.

The Empire's saintliness is not even the point here. Its about how much they got out of the blood on their hand.

The Medes Empire lost them a province, and a God.

[Resileaf]

To add injury to the Insult, 25 years ago Medes GAVE UP the province of Hammerfell, which have managed to hold off the forces of the Dominion on their own without the central power structure. At this point, Cyrodill looks like a liability more than a reliable overlord. Cyrodill will just send more Nords to die.

Counterpoint, at the same time that Medes gave up Hammerfell, there were a number of legions in Hammerfell. Rather than recall them, he disbanded them and fired their commanders. Those ex-legionaires have been fighting in Hammerfell since, fighting for the Empire while giving Medes plausible deniability.

[GloatingSwine]

My point is that Ulfric is hypocritical. The basis of his claim is might makes right (Galmar explicitly says as much when you kill Tullius) but you're sitting here decrying the Empire for being too mighty for the Nords to just unilaterally abandon.

If the empire was too powerful there wouldn’t have been a civil war. The fact is that the Empire is not sufficiently powerful to stop a secessionist movement in Skyrim.

It’s a rump state that retains only around 20% of its 3rd era extent. It’s pretty much down to Cyrodiil, High Rock, and maybe some bits of Morrowind that haven’t been invaded, exploded, or had rocks fall on them.

And it’s been forced into a humiliatingly one sided treaty which allows the secret police of its enemy free reign of its lands.

The idea that the Empire can meaningfully prepare for a renewed war with the Dominion in its current state when any preparation can be seen and disrupted is questionable at best.

[Mr Blobby]

The fact that the Dominion 'can see any preparations' isn't that important, as the 'axis of invasion' for the second war are already effectively known and so are their targets. It is not stupid to assume that the Empire does not have their own spies too; if not in Summerset itself, at least in places like Hammerfell, Valenwood, Argonia etc [so will spot changes in Dominion interest/activity in areas etc]. Like our RL Cold War, it can be assumed that if the Dominion had believed the 'ratio of forces' was in their favour, they would have invaded by now [I mean, they literally called the Great War 'the First War against the Empire'. Hint hint.]

At least in Skyrim, the Justiciars are more use in riling the humans by enforcing the ban on Talos [and ideally, in a really blatant and arrogant manner] rather than doing 'spying' [though the Dominion do have their own spies], because it's providing fuel to the Stormcloak rebellion. For all we know, the Thalmor we see in Skyrim might have been deliberately picked for the ones with the worst arrogance, most abrasive personalities etc to be the strongest salt on the Talos wound.

[Keltest]

If the empire was too powerful there wouldn’t have been a civil war. The fact is that the Empire is not sufficiently powerful to stop a secessionist movement in Skyrim.

It’s a rump state that retains only around 20% of its 3rd era extent. It’s pretty much down to Cyrodiil, High Rock, and maybe some bits of Morrowind that haven’t been invaded, exploded, or had rocks fall on them.

And it’s been forced into a humiliatingly one sided treaty which allows the secret police of its enemy free reign of its lands.

The idea that the Empire can meaningfully prepare for a renewed war with the Dominion in its current state when any preparation can be seen and disrupted is questionable at best.

Ulfric says that direct war with Cyrodiil (say, due to the Emperor getting killed by the Stormcloaks) would result in the Stormcloaks getting annihilated by Cyrodiil's armies. We don't know exactly what happens after a Stormcloak victory, but saying that they can't stop the movement seems incorrect.

[Cikomyr2]

Counterpoint, at the same time that Medes gave up Hammerfell, there were a number of legions in Hammerfell. Rather than recall them, he disbanded them and fired their commanders. Those ex-legionaires have been fighting in Hammerfell since, fighting for the Empire while giving Medes plausible deniability.

That's not true.

Medes recalled the Hammerfell legions after the sack of the Imperial city. The local leader of the Legions disbanded the "invalid" so Hammerfell would be left with an army to defend themselves - against the order of the Emperor

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

I stand by what i said. The Empire as a whole - and Cyrodill in particular - is a liability to the rest of its provinces. It is the exposed throat of the Empire, and when threatened it will throw away its provinces to the fire to preserve themselves.

Ulfric believes Skyrim stands a better chance if they are not chained to the decisions of a far away emperor who is more concerned with Cyrodillian politics than the well being of the Empire.

[Keltest]

That's not true.

Medes recalled the Hammerfell legions after the sack of the Imperial city. The local leader of the Legions disbanded the "invalid" so Hammerfell would be left with an army to defend themselves - against the order of the Emperor



I stand by what i said. The Empire as a whole - and Cyrodill in particular - is a liability to the rest of its provinces. It is the exposed throat of the Empire, and when threatened it will throw away its provinces to the fire to preserve themselves.

Ulfric believes Skyrim stands a better chance if they are not chained to the decisions of a far away emperor who is more concerned with Cyrodillian politics than the well being of the Empire.

Again, youre making contradictory points here. You say everyone is beholden to the Emperor, that secession is impossible without bloodshed, etc... and hey, heres Hammerfell, who did exactly what you said Ulfric couldn't do.

[Mr Blobby]

Hammerfell didn't leave the Empire, it was basically chucked out of it, so to keep the peace treaty. I also bet a lot of folks in the Empire sympathised with the Redguard's cause, possibly to the point you saw a lot of 'retired/demobilised/invalided-out Legionaires' suddenly turn up in Hammerfell as 'mercenaries'. Imperial realpolitik might even reason a long, drawn-out Redguard-Dominion war might benefit the Empire if it results in lots of Altmer coffins.

None of these apply to Skyrim. An independent Skyrim quite easily might start off it's life with the Emperor getting a) a demand from the Dominion for the Empire to 're-impose' the Talos ban on Skyrim or worse, b) a demand that Dominion forces be allowed to transit through Cyrodill to do it themselves. Result; either the Emperor is forced into a humiliating capituation or the 'Second Great War' begins.

[Keltest]

Hammerfell didn't leave the Empire, it was basically chucked out of it, so to keep the peace treaty. I also bet a lot of folks in the Empire sympathised with the Redguard's cause, possibly to the point you saw a lot of 'retired/demobilised/invalided-out Legionaires' suddenly turn up in Hammerfell as 'mercenaries'. Imperial realpolitik might even reason a long, drawn-out Redguard-Dominion war might benefit the Empire if it results in lots of Altmer coffins.

None of these apply to Skyrim. An independent Skyrim quite easily might start off by either a) a demand from the Dominion for the Empire to 're-impose' the Talos ban or worse, b) a demand that Dominion forces be allowed to transit through Cyrodill to do it themselves. Result; either the Emperor is forced into a humiliating capituation or the 'Second Great War' begins.

The Concordant doesn't apply to land outside the Empire. Cyrodiil is under no obligation to allow the Dominion to march their armies through their lands to attack Skyrim, to say nothing of the fact that the Dominion would be absolute maniacs to even try that, since it would basically allow Cyrodiil to swing in behind them and crush them between Skyrim and the Empire.

The Empire isn't a vassal state of the Dominion, and the Thalmor don't have free reign to do whatever they want in the Empire, nor does the Empire have to abide by their wishes outside the terms of the Concordant. Skyrim declares independence and starts worshiping Talos again? Sorry, not our land anymore, nothing we can do about it.

[druid91]

Ulfric says that direct war with Cyrodiil (say, due to the Emperor getting killed by the Stormcloaks) would result in the Stormcloaks getting annihilated by Cyrodiil's armies. We don't know exactly what happens after a Stormcloak victory, but saying that they can't stop the movement seems incorrect.

The thing is, Ulfric is wrong. Blatantly, hilariously wrong.

The reason you hear that is because you're actively pursuing a plotline where you literally murder the emperor and not only does nothing happen, but it's his own council hiring you to do it.

The vast majority of the Imperial Legion is stuck staring at the Thalmor and Cyrodil cannot and will not shift them from that position to mess around in Skyrim. That's why Tullius keeps requesting reinforcements and getting none.

[Keltest]

The thing is, Ulfric is wrong. Blatantly, hilariously wrong.

The reason you hear that is because you're actively pursuing a plotline where you literally murder the emperor and not only does nothing happen, but it's his own council hiring you to do it.

The vast majority of the Imperial Legion is stuck staring at the Thalmor and Cyrodil cannot and will not shift them from that position to mess around in Skyrim. That's why Tullius keeps requesting reinforcements and getting none.

Yeah, which would change if Ulfric, for example, declared direct war on Cyrodiil by killing the Emperor, or otherwise attacking Cyrodiil. It would absolutely result in the destruction of the Empire and Independent Skyrim both, since the Dominion would just move in and sweep up whats left (which is what they want to be happening), but that doesnt mean Ulfric can fight Cyrodiil, it just means that Cyrodiil has other priorities too, and Ulfric very much wants to avoid becoming one of them.

[Mr Blobby]

Yeah, right....

The Dominion had no right to demand that the Empire banned Talos worship in 4E-171. But they did, and declared war when Titus II told them where to get off.

If the Dominion so wished it, they could simply say 'we do not recognise Skyrim as independent' and send in the demand(s) to the Emperor regardless, ignoring the 'not our fault/responsibility' bleating. Or to respond to that with a 'fine, pathetic weakling of an "Emperor". We will go across Cyrodill and do it ourselves', arcing back to the second 'unpalatable option' I laid out above.

The Thalmor's 'free reign' is as far as the tip of an Aldmeri sword can reach. If they can force the Empire to cave in again to Thalmor demands, all well and good.

The thing is, Ulfric is wrong. Blatantly, hilariously wrong.

The reason you hear that is because you're actively pursuing a plotline where you literally murder the emperor and not only does nothing happen, but it's his own council hiring you to do it.

The vast majority of the Imperial Legion is stuck staring at the Thalmor and Cyrodil cannot and will not shift them from that position to mess around in Skyrim. That's why Tullius keeps requesting reinforcements and getting none.

'The Emperor is dead, long live the Emperor...'

As long as Titus II has at least one legitimate successor, the Empire shall continue [which makes you wonder, didn't Uriel VII have grandkids, siblings, nieces/nephews etc when he was assassinated by the Mythic Dawn? Or was it simply not mentioned in the paper that they were all wiped out?]. The Stormcloak rebellion, on the other hand is a rag-tag group being held to gether by Ulfric alone. If he died, chances are the 'rebellion' would promptly fold up.

[Keltest]

Yeah, right....

The Dominion had no right to demand that the Empire banned Talos worship in 4E-171. But they did, and declared war when Titus II told them where to get off.

If the Dominion so wished it, they could simply say 'we do not recognise Skyrim as independent' and send in the demand(s) to the Emperor regardless, ignoring the 'not our fault/responsibility' bleating. Or to respond to that with a 'fine, pathetic weakling of an "Emperor". We will go across Cyrodill and do it ourselves', arcing back to the second 'unpalatable option' I laid out above.

The Thalmor's 'free reign' is as far as the tip of an Aldmeri sword can reach. If they can force the Empire to cave in again to Thalmor demands, all well and good.

Yeah, and then the Empire will tell them to shove off, and they will, because if the Dominion were ready for the next Great War, they would just attack, they wouldnt bother with making demands like that first as an excuse.

The concordant exists because the Dominion is not currently in a state where it can pursue open warfare against the Empire and its (former) vassal provinces. There is no version where they launch the attack before theyre ready just for the sake of Skyrim.

[Divayth Fyr]

Yeah, right....

The Dominion had no right to demand that the Empire banned Talos worship in 4E-171. But they did, and declared war when Titus II told them where to get off.

If the Dominion so wished it, they could simply say 'we do not recognise Skyrim as independent' and send in the demand(s) to the Emperor regardless, ignoring the 'not our fault/responsibility' bleating. Or to respond to that with a 'fine, pathetic weakling of an "Emperor". We will go across Cyrodill and do it ourselves', arcing back to the second 'unpalatable option' I laid out above.

The Thalmor's 'free reign' is as far as the tip of an Aldmeri sword can reach. If they can force the Empire to cave in again to Thalmor demands, all well and good.

If you believe the Thalmor are currently strong enough to make such demands and enforce them, that basically means Ulfric is hilariously wrong with his priorities and cemented the doom of the Empire/mannish rule in Tamriel.

If they're not, that whole idea is a moot point.

And going back to a different point, there is a tiny bit of a difference between the Emperor getting killed by an assassin sent by a known group (the DB) and him being killed directly by a rebel's sword...

[Mr Blobby]

If you believe the Thalmor are currently strong enough to make such demands and enforce them, that basically means Ulfric is hilariously wrong with his priorities and cemented the doom of the Empire/mannish rule in Tamriel.

If they're not, that whole idea is a moot point...

'What I believe' is irrelevant. The relevant bit is what they [in this case, the Dominion] believe. History is filled with sometimes catastropic miscalculations about wars leaders have instigated - so is fictional works. In this case, the Dominion leadership might come to the conclusion that the 'loss of Skyrim' has shown how weakened the Empire has become, esp if they come to the conclusion 'all Nords' will withdraw from Imperial forces etc and return 'home'.

And the Thalmor are hardly the omniscient masters of grand strategy and their own ideology blinds them to possibilities which might help them in their final goals [example; they never apparently bothered trying to recruit the Dunmer to the Dominion, which is a good expy of the Nord/Orc one I laid out before].

[Keltest]

'What I believe' is irrelevant. The relevant bit is what they [in this case, the Dominion] believe. History is filled with sometimes catastropic miscalculations about wars leaders have instigated - so is fictional works. In this case, the Dominion leadership might come to the conclusion that the 'loss of Skyrim' has shown how weakened the Empire has become, esp if they come to the conclusion 'all Nords' will withdraw from Imperial forces etc and return 'home'.

Even if they do believe that, they cannot possibly believe that Skyrim would simply watch while they attacked Cyrodiil. Or that Hammerfel would. Both nations are almost memetically hostile towards the Dominion and would absolutely take the opportunity to attack while their armies were distracted with Cyrodiil, assuming they didnt just shrug and go join the battle on the front lines there anyway.

And the Thalmor are hardly the omniscient masters of grand strategy and their own ideology blinds them to possibilities which might help them in their final goals [example; they never apparently bothered trying to recruit the Dunmer to the Dominion, which is a good expy of the Nord/Orc one I laid out before].

The Dunmer are A: getting crushed by the Argonians, B: geographically far away, C: unbelievably hostile to the party line of the Dominion and D: notoriously difficult to subjugate.

The dominion is better off leaving them alone.

[Mr Blobby]

They might plan to play them off each other; for example a 'free Skyrim' trying to annex [say] Bruma/Solstheim/Wrothgar. Or they might be simply so arrogant in believing the humans are too stupid to see past their own immediate goals/needs.

[Keltest]

They might plan to play them off each other; for example a 'free Skyrim' trying to annex [say] Bruma/Solstheim/Wrothgar. Or they might be simply so arrogant in believing the humans are too stupid to see past their own immediate goals/needs.

They ARE trying that. By backing Ulfric, and making sure the civil war is ongoing. We flat out see their communications, we know a Stormcloak victory and independent Skyrim is considered bad by them. We don't need to speculate, we actively know they do not want it.

[Mr Blobby]

The Thalmor most likely want Skyrim to become 'the Empire's Hammerfell'; aka a long-drawn out internal conflict which drains the Empire of blood and treasure. Thus, if the Stormcloaks won, it's most likely to be after a draining war [and much bad blood] for both parties, meaning that an even smaller/weaker Empire is left to face the Dominion. But thing is, we don't know what the Dominion's govt is setup is like; it might be a form of oligarchy where all the main players are working at cross-purposes. Lastly, let us not forget the old Camus quote; 'stupidity has a knack of getting its way'.

And the Thalmor's inability to 'tone down' the Altmer-Dunmer differences so they could cooperate to some level is partly why I think the former will ultimately lose - the Dominion desperately needs to expand their support-base but are too ideologically hidebound to accommodate anyone else [which is why I said it was similar to the Stormcloak/Orc situation].

[GloatingSwine]

And the Thalmor's inability to 'tone down' the Altmer-Dunmer differences so they could cooperate to some level is partly why I think the former will ultimately lose - the Dominion desperately needs to expand their support-base but are too ideologically hidebound to accommodate anyone else [which is why I said it was similar to the Stormcloak/Orc situation].

Well yeah, when your entire driving ideology is racial supremacy it’s hard to integrate others as anything other than inferiors or slaves. Which is the fate the Aldmeri have in store for the rest of Tamriel.

[SirKazum]

They ARE trying that. By backing Ulfric, and making sure the civil war is ongoing. We flat out see their communications, we know a Stormcloak victory and independent Skyrim is considered bad by them. We don't need to speculate, we actively know they do not want it.

Hmm, this gives me an interesting idea. This franchise is notorious for trying to make all different, contradictory possible endings of each game canon in the next one (most notably with Dragon Breaks / the Warp in the West). With that in mind, it's highly unlikely that they'd go with either an Empire victory or a Stormcloak victory in the Skyrim civil war as being exclusively canon. If they're going to avoid pulling another Dragon Break (which might be a kinda tired solution at this time), for the sake of future developments, they're probably going with something that can be true regardless of who wins. And the Aldmeri Dominion walking all over everyone might be just that. Maybe the Empire and Skyrim both exhausted themselves too much in the Civil War, and the elves saw the opportunity and took it. Whether that means the former Empire (including Skyrim) are subjugated, or that the humans manage to fight back, rally together under this greater threat, and defeat the elves (maybe with a new emperor that reinstates Talos and gets traditionalist Nords on his side), I don't know, either could be true. But anyway, this Thalmor plan to use the civil war as a way to play the humans off each other actually succeeding might be a way to make it so both possible outcomes of the Civil War are just as canon, so to speak.

[Resileaf]

That's not true.

Medes recalled the Hammerfell legions after the sack of the Imperial city. The local leader of the Legions disbanded the "invalid" so Hammerfell would be left with an army to defend themselves - against the order of the Emperor

I'm pretty sure that there are strong implications, if not outright confirmations, that the "invalid" Legions remain in Hammerfell with the tacit approval of the Emperor.

[Cikomyr2]

Again, youre making contradictory points here. You say everyone is beholden to the Emperor, that secession is impossible without bloodshed, etc... and hey, heres Hammerfell, who did exactly what you said Ulfric couldn't do.

There is nothing contradictory in what i said. I already explained, in many details, multiple time the difference between de facto and de jure authority of the Emperor. You just refuse to reply when i make these arguments.

There is no legal recourse to appeal the Emperor's orders. There is no way for one of the Empire's subject to restrict the authority of the Emperor, except by actively disobeying him or appealing to him personally.

Hammerfell was SIGNED OUT of the Empire. Titus Medes II gave up the province to the Aldemari Dominion, and the province refused to acknowledge this surrender and thus de facto seceded, claiming they were not the Emperor's to give.

Dont bother answering to me if you ignore the point about the legal power of the Emperor vs the effective power of the Emperor again. Im done retelling you the same thing for the 3rd time.

I'm pretty sure that there are strong implications, if not outright confirmations, that the "invalid" Legions remain in Hammerfell with the tacit approval of the Emperor.

If you have confirmation or could point me to the work of media that has that, id be happy to review my opinion on the matter. But i will not give the benefit of the doubt about an "implication" to an Emperor that signed away Hammefell and Talos just because Cyrodill got a bloody nose.

[Keltest]

There is nothing contradictory in what i said. I already explained, in many details, multiple time the difference between de facto and de jure authority of the Emperor. You just refuse to reply when i make these arguments.

There is no legal recourse to appeal the Emperor's orders. There is no way for one of the Empire's subject to restrict the authority of the Emperor, except by actively disobeying him or appealing to him personally.

Hammerfell was SIGNED OUT of the Empire. Titus Medes II gave up the province to the Aldemari Dominion, and the province refused to acknowledge this surrender and thus de facto seceded, claiming they were not the Emperor's to give.

Dont bother answering to me if you ignore the point about the legal power of the Emperor vs the effective power of the Emperor again. Im done retelling you the same thing for the 3rd time.

You aren't making a point for me to refute. 'The Empire is bad because it has an Emperor" isnt a point to be argued against, its just you personally not liking something. You're arguing to replace the Emperor with Ulfric and failing to explain how that is any different, let alone better. What am I even supposed to be addressing?

[GloatingSwine]

You aren't making a point for me to refute. 'The Empire is bad because it has an Emperor" isnt a point to be argued against, its just you personally not liking something. You're arguing to replace the Emperor with Ulfric and failing to explain how that is any different, let alone better. What am I even supposed to be addressing?

Where did anyone say the Empire is bad “because it has an Emperor”?

The Empire in the 4th era is bad because it is weak and useless, and appeals to the theoretical authority of the Emperor are irrelevant because he doesn’t have the force of arms to back that authority. (Nor the divine favour denoted by the Amulet of Kings.)

[Mr Blobby]

I'm pretty sure that there are strong implications, if not outright confirmations, that the "invalid" Legions remain in Hammerfell with the tacit approval of the Emperor.

In that case, it wasn't a Legion remaining in Hammerfell, it was a considerable amount of Legionaires being discharged from said Legion before leaving Hammerfell - on the pretext that they were 'invalids' [and thus no longer of combat worth]. It's unlikely the Emperor knew about it at the time, and if he did learn what General Decianus had done, it was too late to do anything about it.

[Cikomyr2]

You aren't making a point for me to refute. 'The Empire is bad because it has an Emperor" isnt a point to be argued against, its just you personally not liking something. You're arguing to replace the Emperor with Ulfric and failing to explain how that is any different, let alone better. What am I even supposed to be addressing?

You cannot be bothered to even read my argument, i dont see why i should further acknowledge you. I never said "the empire is bad because it has an emperor".

Dont be surprised you cannot find a point to refute when you cannot take the time to do basic reading.

[Keltest]

You cannot be bothered to even read my argument, i dont see why i should further acknowledge you. I never said "the empire is bad because it has an emperor".

Dont be surprised you cannot find a point to refute when you cannot take the time to do basic reading.

I'm reading it fine, I simply find your talking points irrelevant to the Stormcloak vs Imperial argument. They're a list of reasons why you, Cikomyr, find the Empire to be bad as a form of government. As I said a while back, I'm not touching that because discussing the merits of governmental systems is too close to the line on forum rules for my comfort, but just as relevant is that Ulfric is acting for entirely different reasons than you say, whether you take him at his word about his motives or think he's just power hungry.