Vistani tribe needs to solve a pally problem

[HoboKnight]

I have in my campaign a small tribe of Vistani. These Vistani travel the Sword coast(Faerun, 5e), peddle trinkets and remove curses for money (they also plant a curse for more gold, but only if they take no heat for it). Also, they tell the fortune. They are very tribal, renegades from Domains of Dread and they want to keep away from troubles.

Recently their elders saw in their cards that they will be contacted by a group of adventurers with a strong divine aura (pallys, clerics in a group) that will demand of Vistani to lead them to a specific Domain, home of a really nasty BBEG, the three Elder Hags.
Showing the way (for a proper payment) is not a problem for Vistani, but they are well aware, if adventurers fail in their foolish quest, Hags are coming after them, their offspring and other Vistani for helping the adventurers. Vistani are good at avoiding powerful evil, but not that good. And such entities hold a long grudge.

Avoidance is a problem in this case regarding adventurers, too. Adventurers have scryed the tribe and are coming via teleport (Vistani know this due to card reading) and will persist to track the Vistani until they get them. Also, Vistani can not just cast Mind Blank on every tribe member all the time. Vistani could set up a rube to technically not transfer info to the adventurers, but hags are not LE. They are, in terms of grudges, more akin to a Mexican drug cartel and no amount of lawyering will keep them away. Very powerful and very vindictive. Vistani could send adventurers to a wrong Domain, but this will probably not work - it's a bluff that, cards show, it will probably not work. Vistani could be placed under protection of one of Faeruns' churches, but again, long term, this is not a waterproof plan, since hags have decades to work their vengeance.


Adventurers are powerful. Adventurers are willing to amply compensate the Vistani. But it's the hags. Such evils are very hard to kill permanently.

So at this point, Vistani elders must come up with a solution. Got any ideas on how would such a tribe approach such a problem?

[Unoriginal]

I have in my campaign a small tribe of Vistani. These Vistani travel the Sword coast(Faerun, 5e), peddle trinkets and remove curses for money (they also plant a curse for more gold, but only if they take no heat for it). Also, they tell the fortune. They are very tribal, renegades from Domains of Dread and they want to keep away from troubles.

Recently their elders saw in their cards that they will be contacted by a group of adventurers with a strong divine aura (pallys, clerics in a group) that will demand of Vistani to lead them to a specific Domain, home of a really nasty BBEG, the three Elder Hags.
Showing the way (for a proper payment) is not a problem for Vistani, but they are well aware, if adventurers fail in their foolish quest, Hags are coming after them, their offspring and other Vistani for helping the adventurers. Vistani are good at avoiding powerful evil, but not that good. And such entities hold a long grudge.

Avoidance is a problem in this case regarding adventurers, too. Adventurers have scryed the tribe and are coming via teleport (Vistani know this due to card reading) and will persist to track the Vistani until they get them. Also, Vistani can not just cast Mind Blank on every tribe member all the time. Vistani could set up a rube to technically not transfer info to the adventurers, but hags are not LE. They are, in terms of grudges, more akin to a Mexican drug cartel and no amount of lawyering will keep them away. Very powerful and very vindictive. Vistani could send adventurers to a wrong Domain, but this will probably not work - it's a bluff that, cards show, it will probably not work. Vistani could be placed under protection of one of Faeruns' churches, but again, long term, this is not a waterproof plan, since hags have decades to work their vengeance.


Adventurers are powerful. Adventurers are willing to amply compensate the Vistani. But it's the hags. Such evils are very hard to kill permanently.

So at this point, Vistani elders must come up with a solution. Got any ideas on how would such a tribe approach such a problem?

Sure.

Tell the adventurers to **** off.

They may be powerful, but the hags are scarier. The worst the adventurers can do is kill this one clan, while all the other Vistani on Toril will leave the planet the moment the adventurers do that. Because this clan would have warbed the others.

The only way the Vistani would agree to help them is if the adventurers can provide a plan that guarantee the Hags' permanent demise AND show they have the means and the will to carry out that plan.

And even then the Vistani elder would probably be the only one to go with them, asking they pretend to have kidnapped him and are forcing him to help.

[JackPhoenix]

The easiest solution for the Vistani isn't very conductive for the game, I'm afraid: Do what Vistani do and just walk away. They do have an unbeatable mobility advantage: Neither scrying nor teleportation will catch them if they simply walk into the mists and disappear into a different setting.

[JLandan]

What the Vistani need, and their culture would support this, is a patsy.

1) Have them forge a journal containing the information written by someone that doesn't exist and would have no tie to the Vistani.
2) Put the journal into the possession of someone (the patsy) that would turn it over to The Adventurers^TM voluntarily or involuntarily.
3) Drop a hint (for a price) to the The Adventurers^TM that "the patsy" has what they're looking for.
4) The Adventurers^TM now have said information with no visible tie to the Vistani. Done deal.

[KorvinStarmast]

What the Vistani need, and their culture would support this, is a patsy.

1) Have them forge a journal containing the information written by someone that doesn't exist and would have no tie to the Vistani.
2) Put the journal into the possession of someone (the patsy) that would turn it over to The Adventurers^TM voluntarily or involuntarily.
3) Drop a hint (for a price) to the The Adventurers^TM that "the patsy" has what they're looking for.
4) The Adventurers^TM now have said information with no visible tie to the Vistani. Done deal.

This illustrates the concept of plausible deniability...

[Unoriginal]

What the Vistani need, and their culture would support this, is a patsy.

1) Have them forge a journal containing the information written by someone that doesn't exist and would have no tie to the Vistani.
2) Put the journal into the possession of someone (the patsy) that would turn it over to The Adventurers^TM voluntarily or involuntarily.
3) Drop a hint (for a price) to the The Adventurers^TM that "the patsy" has what they're looking for.
4) The Adventurers^TM now have said information with no visible tie to the Vistani. Done deal.

I don't think the Vistani can just write down how to do the plane-crossing in a way that let non-Vistani do it.

[JLandan]

I don't think the Vistani can just write down how to do the plane-crossing in a way that let non-Vistani do it.

Are you the DM?

[Unoriginal]

Are you the DM?

I said "I don't think" not "I'm not allowing it as some kind of authority."

OP, who is the DM, is asking for a solution that fits the Vistani lore. I am only stating what I know of said lore.

[Sigreid]

I have in my campaign a small tribe of Vistani. These Vistani travel the Sword coast(Faerun, 5e), peddle trinkets and remove curses for money (they also plant a curse for more gold, but only if they take no heat for it). Also, they tell the fortune. They are very tribal, renegades from Domains of Dread and they want to keep away from troubles.

Recently their elders saw in their cards that they will be contacted by a group of adventurers with a strong divine aura (pallys, clerics in a group) that will demand of Vistani to lead them to a specific Domain, home of a really nasty BBEG, the three Elder Hags.
Showing the way (for a proper payment) is not a problem for Vistani, but they are well aware, if adventurers fail in their foolish quest, Hags are coming after them, their offspring and other Vistani for helping the adventurers. Vistani are good at avoiding powerful evil, but not that good. And such entities hold a long grudge.

Avoidance is a problem in this case regarding adventurers, too. Adventurers have scryed the tribe and are coming via teleport (Vistani know this due to card reading) and will persist to track the Vistani until they get them. Also, Vistani can not just cast Mind Blank on every tribe member all the time. Vistani could set up a rube to technically not transfer info to the adventurers, but hags are not LE. They are, in terms of grudges, more akin to a Mexican drug cartel and no amount of lawyering will keep them away. Very powerful and very vindictive. Vistani could send adventurers to a wrong Domain, but this will probably not work - it's a bluff that, cards show, it will probably not work. Vistani could be placed under protection of one of Faeruns' churches, but again, long term, this is not a waterproof plan, since hags have decades to work their vengeance.


Adventurers are powerful. Adventurers are willing to amply compensate the Vistani. But it's the hags. Such evils are very hard to kill permanently.

So at this point, Vistani elders must come up with a solution. Got any ideas on how would such a tribe approach such a problem?

Simple, contact the hags first and let them know the powerful adventurers are coming. Hags can now arrange for an ambush. If the heroes win, great! we have a hero party. Hags win, they cooperated.

[Wintermoot]

Simple, contact the hags first and let them know the powerful adventurers are coming. Hags can now arrange for an ambush. If the heroes win, great! we have a hero party. Hags win, they cooperated.

Evil problems.

"While we appreciate you letting us know about the adventurers which we have now destroyed, the problem remains that we now know that you have the ability to find and intrude on our carefully hidden demiplane and we simply can't risk someone else finding and using you in the future."

To the OP: It appears you, as the GM, are trying to find a justification for why the Vistani would or would not help the party. But the point here is, the Vistani can see the future and know and understand their place in it. If the powers that be have granted them the vision of who is coming, they already know if they are going to help or not. So you don't need a justification beyond "Grandma saw you coming and said we are going to help you." Why did Grandma say to help? Perhaps she sees that the hags will eventually threaten the Vistani. Perhaps the hags have something in their demiplane that the Vistani need/want/covet and this gives them cover to go get it. Perhaps Grandma and her two sisters, the great aunties, intend to take over the Hag's domain after the adventurers move them out.

[Sigreid]

Evil problems.

"While we appreciate you letting us know about the adventurers which we have now destroyed, the problem remains that we now know that you have the ability to find and intrude on our carefully hidden demiplane and we simply can't risk someone else finding and using you in the future."

To the OP: It appears you, as the GM, are trying to find a justification for why the Vistani would or would not help the party. But the point here is, the Vistani can see the future and know and understand their place in it. If the powers that be have granted them the vision of who is coming, they already know if they are going to help or not. So you don't need a justification beyond "Grandma saw you coming and said we are going to help you." Why did Grandma say to help? Perhaps she sees that the hags will eventually threaten the Vistani. Perhaps the hags have something in their demiplane that the Vistani need/want/covet and this gives them cover to go get it. Perhaps Grandma and her two sisters, the great aunties, intend to take over the Hag's domain after the adventurers move them out.

Hags in general aren't the type to let a useful tool go to waste.

[Keltest]

Hags in general aren't the type to let a useful tool go to waste.

They aren't the type to appreciate someone sending adventurers after them either, warning or not. Nobody likes being called in to work on their day off.

[Herbert_W]

So at this point, Vistani elders must come up with a solution. Got any ideas on how would such a tribe approach such a problem?

Are the Vistani the only ones who could help the PCs? If they do, will the hags know that it was them based on the fact that they are the only ones who could have done it?

If not, the solution is simple: help the adventurers in such a way that the hags can never ever find out. The more people who know a secret, the harder it is to keep. The safest course of action would be to send a small group of patsies, possibly with magically altered memories to prevent information from leaking, to be found by and to help the PCs. From the PCs perspective, they would come across a small group of "totally not Vistani" (maybe actually Vistani, maybe not) who are very confused but also very eager to help.

If yes, then this brings into question the limits of the divination powers of the Vistani. The Vistani elders could be convinced to help the PCs if they are convinced that the PCs will certainly win - and if they are very good at divination they'll already know this. That's a fairly boring answer: "Sure, we'll help. BTW this is how you win. Yes, I've written the plan down. Yes, it's detailed. Oh, and here's the extra copy that you'll end up needing after step #57. Hide it in your left boot now."

Another possibility is to simply embrace the fact that divination magic can be used as a justification of whatever behavior is narratively convenient: "Hey PCs, I'll help you in this very specific way under these very specific circumstances. Why? Divination told me it would lead to the best outcome. No, I don't know how. I just know that it will. No, I don't know what that outcome is either - just that it'll end up being better than whatever the alternatives are, for us."

[HoboKnight]

Splendid answers. The diary option is not really viable since mists shift all the time and you need a proper Vistani to gauge them. But Vistani COULD lead adventurers toward their goal by a proxy, yes. (for a small price). There is another way to find the hags (ancient scrying pool) and Vistani can lead them there. This way Vistani should also take no heat themselves.

[LibraryOgre]

Another option would be an outcast Vistani... someone who IS willing to lead them, for money, and possibly betray them for more money.

So, the Vistani themselves say "Absolutely not", then one of them sidles up and says "Yeah... the elders said no, but I can do it."

And, for extra fun, the outcast is the Hags' own Warlock; while "Archfey" is the suggested one for Hags, I think Undying works better.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Ogre: Due to a problem with the thread's original title, I had to edit every post in this thread. The usual rules regarding edited posts (such as making your own subsequent edits) are suspended, unless you change the thread title back.

[Cygnia]

Is this the same party who kills first, ask questions never that you've talked about earlier? They may not even try to be diplomatic with the Vistani...

[Segev]

Are the hags Domain Lords? If so, they can't escape to come after the Vistani personally. If not, oof.

And maybe the Vistani curse the adventurers to become revenants if they die without slaying the hags, to come back again and again until they do, thus keeping the hags too busy to come after the Vistani?