Book Club: Player's Handbook II

[Chronos]

Quoth pabelfly:

Changing WIS for CON on will saves can be a great benefit. I've seen multiple builds go from a -1 ability score to a +3, even at moderately low level.

If that's all you're getting from it, then Steadfast Determination definitely isn't worth it. It costs you two feats (because let's be honest, Endurance itself isn't getting you much), and it's giving you +4 to one save. You can get +3 to a save with a single feat, and those are generally regarded as trash feats.

Now, on the other hand, zlefin mentioned using it on monsters. I had a thread once on changing the Tarrasque's feats, and there, it makes a huge difference.

[pabelfly]

If that's all you're getting from it, then Steadfast Determination definitely isn't worth it. It costs you two feats (because let's be honest, Endurance itself isn't getting you much), and it's giving you +4 to one save. You can get +3 to a save with a single feat, and those are generally regarded as trash feats.

Now, on the other hand, zlefin mentioned using it on monsters. I had a thread once on changing the Tarrasque's feats, and there, it makes a huge difference.

You're right that monsters get a huge benefit from this, but this is also pretty good for players. You don't have to invest your point buy or a decent dice roll into your WIS score when making your character. A +4 to your Will save means (roughly) 20% more chance that you'll pass the will save you're trying to pass. That's not a small boost. Iron Will is only a +2 (unless you mean another feat).

Lastly, as you level higher, you get more from the feat. That +4 becomes a +7 to your will save when you get a CON-boosting item, as well as likely saving 36K gold saved, since you don't need an item to boost your WIS. Any further boosts to CON, like Rage, for example, will also boost your Will save.

There's also the whole "you don't necessarily fail Fort saves with a 1", which can be nice at higher level when fort saves are trivial.

Great feat for powering up monsters, yes, and it's also a really solid pick for players.

[Chronos]

Yeah, I meant Iron Will, and was just misremembering it. I think I was getting it mixed up with Skill Focus. Still, the three +2-to-a-save feats are generally not worth a feat slot.

You're right that the benefit of switching stats is likely to increase with level, but you can't say that it's improving your saves and saving you money. It's doing one or the other. If you've already decided to not buy a +wis item, then it's improving your saves but not saving money, and if you've already decided to improve your wis save, then it's saving you money but not improving your saves.

[Kurald Galain]

Lastly, as you level higher, you get more from the feat. That +4 becomes a +7 to your will save when you get a CON-boosting item

At what level can you even afford a +6 item that's not for your primary ability? I have some level-17 characters and none of them have that (because they had more important stuff to buy first). So, level 19? 20 maybe? Epic-plus? I'd say a more realistic figure is +5, not +7.

And I don't think spending two feats for +5 (or even for +7) on will saves is a good deal. There are much better feats.

(edit) it's a different matter if you get Endurance for free, or from a cheap item, or if you need that as prereq to something else.

[Inevitability]

Steadfast Determination isn't worth getting on any random PC, but there's a lot of contexts where it becomes an interesting pick.

A build that's getting Endurance for free (say, because they're a ranger) would do well picking it up. A build that's already racking up constitution boosts (dragonborn mongrelfolk) might be interested in having it. A build that already needs Endurance for something else would benefit much. And a build trying to do something silly that requires never failing a particular Fortitude save (Poison Healer stuff, wielding a chunk of voidstone as a club), similarly wants Steadfast Determination. There's just a lot of situations where you can justify it!

Meanwhile, Great Fortitude is basically never worth it, unless it's as a prerequisite.

[Darg]

Steadfast Determination isn't worth getting on any random PC, but there's a lot of contexts where it becomes an interesting pick.

A build that's getting Endurance for free (say, because they're a ranger) would do well picking it up. A build that's already racking up constitution boosts (dragonborn mongrelfolk) might be interested in having it. A build that already needs Endurance for something else would benefit much. And a build trying to do something silly that requires never failing a particular Fortitude save (Poison Healer stuff, wielding a chunk of voidstone as a club), similarly wants Steadfast Determination. There's just a lot of situations where you can justify it!

Meanwhile, Great Fortitude is basically never worth it, unless it's as a prerequisite.

I'd say steadfast determination is useful for a frenzied berserker with all the will saves you'll likely need to make. Though indomitable will would have been preferrable, the feat tax is too burdensome. Endurance is just one of those feats that would be extremely useful, but is extremely hard to justify as a feat choice because it's benefit is extremely niche in effect.

[Inevitability]

I'd say steadfast determination is useful for a frenzied berserker with all the will saves you'll likely need to make. Though indomitable will would have been preferrable, the feat tax is too burdensome. Endurance is just one of those feats that would be extremely useful, but is extremely hard to justify as a feat choice because it's benefit is extremely niche in effect.

You mean Indomitable Soul? Rolling two dice is overrated, it's numerically inferior to a +4 bonus; any berserker worth their salt should get more out of Steadfast Determination.

The niche for Indomitable Soul lies on reducing the chance of a natural 1 on saves that'd otherwise be trivial, but that's not really the problem that frenzied berserkers struggle with.

[pabelfly]

At what level can you even afford a +6 item that's not for your primary ability? I have some level-17 characters and none of them have that (because they had more important stuff to buy first). So, level 19? 20 maybe? Epic-plus? I'd say a more realistic figure is +5, not +7.

And I don't think spending two feats for +5 (or even for +7) on will saves is a good deal. There are much better feats.

As someone who typically plays melee characters (mundane, gish and a melee caster once), CON is a pretty important stat to me. I'd generally have a +2 CON item around level 9, a +4 item around level 13, and a +6 CON item around level 15.

Inevitability also has a point that any build that gets Endurance for free, like Ranger (and I'd add some races like Frostblood Orc), can much more easily justify the feat. I've also picked up the feat on a few Fighter builds, when I have my damage sorted out through fighter feats and have spare general feats and want to fix up my Fighter's low Will save.

If you specifically want to fix the will save of your character, and Paladin isn't an option, Steadfast Determination can be a pretty decent option.

[Darg]

You mean Indomitable Soul? Rolling two dice is overrated, it's numerically inferior to a +4 bonus; any berserker worth their salt should get more out of Steadfast Determination.

The niche for Indomitable Soul lies on reducing the chance of a natural 1 on saves that'd otherwise be trivial, but that's not really the problem that frenzied berserkers struggle with.

Indomitable Soul comes with a +2 bonus to will saves from Iron Will. The advantage of rolling two die is that you get more predictable outcomes in the most "swingy" of zones. With a DC of 20, if your saves are between 6 and 16, rolling twice will be better than a +4 bonus. Which is where you'll spend most of your time as a frenzied berserker. A +4 is better when you only need to roll a 2 to 6 or 16 to 19

Anyways, getting iron heart surge is probably the best way to guarantee you drop your frenzy.

[pabelfly]

Chapter 4: New Spells

So here we have a bunch of new spells added in this book. So, what did everyone think of the spells on offer in this book? I'm not an expert on spellcasting, but post my impressions of some spells in a day or two (have been busy this last week).

[Inevitability]

I really like Dual-School spells; they're still pretty conservative here (compare dragon magic) but I'd have loved it if they were a bigger part of the 3.5 landscape. Much easier to make schools matter if a lot of spells share schools, from a design standpoint.

Alter Fortune... not a fan. XP costs on spells are an iffy topic to begin with, but if you must have them, my philosophy is that they should either serve as a last-ditch balancing factor on what'll otherwise be an indefinite boon (Awaken Undead, Permanency), or as a way to gate out big plotline-altering spells (Wish, Heart of Stone, True Creation, Commune). Alter Fortune would be perfectly balanced without the XP cost if you just upped its level by two or three, and would've been much better had it been printed that way.

I like Blade Brothers, it's just a flavorful effect that encourages party synergy. The various Bigby's spells are also pretty fun, I've toyed with the idea of making a hand-themed wizard centered around them and Create Crawling Claw.

Blinding Color Surge, another spell that's just fun and flavorful. Is it as good as Glitterdust? Certainly not, but it's much cooler.

Burning Rage is fun, I like things with built-in drawbacks that you can negate in a variety of ways. Sure, you can just cast it on a fireblood dwarf or lesser tiefling, but how about inviting the party totemist to shape his Phoenix Belt for the day?

The Celerity spells... obviously broken if you put in the effort to get daze immunity, but even without, I don't think the party wizard should get to take his turn whenever at the cost of some spell slots! It really messes with the flow of combat if at any point, one of the players can stand up and say 'I would like to cast a few spells now, we'll get back to you in a sec Gary'.

Channeled X is interesting, I like the use of casting time as a variable mechanic, definitely not spells I mind existing even if the practical value is limited.

Crown of X is another series of spells trying to push design space, but this one with a bit less success. The hour/level bonuses are just a bit too low to be actually worth going for, and the big discharge effects are just too limited in scope. Also, it eats body slots for some reason.

Detonate is... not a very good spell, and could probably stand to be dropped a few levels, but again, it's fun, it's cool, it's memorable.

Drifts of the Shalm isn't something I was actually aware existed? But honestly, I like it, there's ways to exploit spells that create difficult terrain and this even comes with a little added bonus.

Explosive Rune Field - just why? Why invoke the iconic Explosive Runes name if you're just going to make it a Fire Damage Zone? At least add a clause that blindness confers immunity or something, give it some personality.

Hunter's Eye is just poor design. I'm not saying that a spell that grants sneak attack is inherently a mistake, but on a book-standard ranger this is never going to add more than 3d6 and that's honestly not worth bothering with. Like, I think the real takeaway is that rangers having half-CL was a mistake, but the practical effect is that lots of ranger spells now exclusively show up as unseen seer grabs.

Luminous Assassin is weird because the created luminous beings are, by RAW, humans. I don't know, just wanted to draw attention to that. Also they come with equipment - can you take and use that for yourself before the duration wears off? And why, for the love of pelor, do they have Improved Initiative if their turn is determined by yours?

Scattering Trap is another fun spell where I'm not sure what the actual use case is. Like maaaaybe you could argue it works with Desert Diversion somehow, but that really requires stretching 'similar spell'.

Stay the Hand is fun for doing just that little bit more than just forcing a retarget.

Vertigo Field I feel could drive the 'vertigo' theme home a bit better, but I do like it just for being a fortitude-targeting illusion, those are rare.

[Zancloufer]

So many new spells to look through. Could probably make a thread on just discussing some of them. Some takes (starting alphabetically)

Alter Fortune seems good and would be worth using, if not for the EXP cost. 200 EXP for a re-roll that might not even change anything seems pretty steep. Not to mention the opportunity cost of a 3rd level spell and your immediate action.

Animalistic power Mass is for some reason a 7th level spell. Not sure why they decided +2 for 3 stats was equal to +4 for 1 stat, but the one AoE needs to be up-tiered. Especially bad as while at level 3 you probably don't have any +2 items, by level 13+ you almost definitely have a +2 [or better] item to at least one of your physical stats.

As the Frost is cool. Pretty much a specific energy immunity, but some cool extras that may or may not do anything. Making a spell more (or less) flexible in exchange for power works well.

Baleful Blink seems like inverse Blink, but again up-tiered. Not sure if it's worth a higher level spell slot unless your fighting one enemy with a bad For save.

All the Bigby's Hand spells; Seriously under-powered. No really, they all target one creature (at a time), have one effect and have one or two ways they can fail. "Oh noes, single target must make STR check or move at half speed! If only there was another 1st (let alone 2nd) level spell that just made an entire group of enemies move at half speed no save!". "Oh no, you have to make a DC 16 Concentration check or fail your spell is distributed!".

Black Karma Curse: Stop hitting your-self the spell. Only down side is it's mind effecting, but still for a 2nd level spell there are enough beat stick enemies with bad save but enough big stick damage for it to be good. Flavorful and powerful, but only if used on the right target.

Blades of Blood: It's not bad. Swift action for more weapon damage is good on a Gish. Except this got printed along side a Dusk-blade, the class most likely to use it, who at 3rd level gets an ability that renders the spell useless. Also no scaling, and the take 5 damage to deal ~6 damage is kind of crap. At the level 6 extra damage matters, well you just dealt it to yourself as well. . .

Bleakness: Nice buff for undead, or casters that mass them as minions. Counters light spells and stacks with (un)-Hallow. Can make undead (almost) un-turnable at that point.

Blessing of the Righteous: +1d6 damage for a 4th level spell??? I suppose you also counter DR/Good so your Paladin can let the party punch Angels in the face for an extra 1d6 hold damage. I don't even this spell. Under-tuned and makes no thematic sense.

Blinding Colour Surge; Invisibility, but trades away 90% of it's [theoretical] duration in exchange for a 1 round save or suck? I uh, don't get it. If you invisible the enemy is functionally blind already it's not like they can be double blind.

Blood Creepers: Save or Suck that also has 3 other ways to break free. I guess chip damage is okay, but they can still take any action other than movement and by level 10 it's not like a DC 20 Str check or 25 skill check is hard. If only there was another 5th level Druid spell that was Fort save or Super Loose. . .

Bones of the Earth: This one is cool It's like Wall of Stone, but you can attempt to crush your foes with them and it's summoned over multiple rounds. It takes longer to fully summon the pillars, but they are much thicker and can used as crowd control/damage. No really, those pillars are ****ing huge, at level 11 it's about 10 times the square footage of Wall of Stone, in exchange for taking 5 rounds to fully cast.


Uh, enough this for now. Might come back and review more spells later.

[Kurald Galain]

Blades of Blood: It's not bad. Swift action for more weapon damage is good on a Gish. Except this got printed along side a Dusk-blade, the class most likely to use it, who at 3rd level gets an ability that renders the spell useless.

I'm pretty sure the dusky can stack a regular spell with a swift spell like this one.

[Troacctid]

Dual-school spells were a good idea that I wish had been explored more. There are for sure some PHB spells that I think should have been dual-school too, if the technology had existed at the time. Demand is an obvious example—it's literally an enchantment spell stapled onto an evocation spell—and a lot of the various "spell traps" could have been abjuration plus whatever school the output of the trap belongs to (necromancy for symbol of death, evocation for explosive runes, and so on). If there were more interplay between the schools, I think it would make specialist wizards more interesting.

[Darg]

Dual-school spells were a good idea that I wish had been explored more. There are for sure some PHB spells that I think should have been dual-school too, if the technology had existed at the time. Demand is an obvious example—it's literally an enchantment spell stapled onto an evocation spell—and a lot of the various "spell traps" could have been abjuration plus whatever school the output of the trap belongs to (necromancy for symbol of death, evocation for explosive runes, and so on). If there were more interplay between the schools, I think it would make specialist wizards more interesting.

Definitely would have made more sense if the CArc orb spells were Conj/Evoc rather than just Conj.

Then again I'm on the fence. I get why dual schools is a fun concept, but on the otherhand, the schools are there to categorize spells that exist. If dual school spells exist, you're basically saying 64 different schools should actually exist to accurately reflect spells' properties. It simply just makes things more complicated for no reason.

[Inevitability]

Then again I'm on the fence. I get why dual schools is a fun concept, but on the otherhand, the schools are there to categorize spells that exist. If dual school spells exist, you're basically saying 64 different schools should actually exist to accurately reflect spells' properties. It simply just makes things more complicated for no reason.

I mean, no matter how you split up spell schools, sometimes a very cool and coherent effect is going to be stepping across school lines. Either you refuse to print such effects and impoverish the game, you force them into a single school and reduce the meaning schools have, orrrr you just print a handful of dual-school spells and explicitly denote effects that don't fit neatly in a single box as such. The last one seems like the best option here, especially if you're also printing a ton of support for individual schools that players now get to mix and match.

[Darg]

I sort of like the fact that spell schools are debatable. It brings a sort of flavor to the game that the players can be just as much a scholar of magic capable of debating how to classify spells. Troacctid brought up demand as an example because the the earlier spell in the chain is sending which is an evocation spell. Personally, I'd argue that sending shouldn't be an evocation spell in the first place and is really either a universal spell or, if you really had to have a school then, divination. Telepathy falls under divination after all (which we could also debate is correctly identified). When you break spells apart into hybrid spells it sort of breaks that scholarly pursuit which would honestly be more flavorfully done by creating a new categorical system. Yes, dual schools are more accurate to their effect; however, I'd argue that schools matter little to the actual mechanics of the game so having dual schools really just makes these spells slightly less accessible to specialized wizards.

[Kurald Galain]

I sort of like the fact that spell schools are debatable. It brings a sort of flavor to the game that the players can be just as much a scholar of magic capable of debating how to classify spells. Troacctid brought up demand as an example because the the earlier spell in the chain is sending which is an evocation spell. Personally, I'd argue that sending shouldn't be an evocation spell in the first place and is really either a universal spell or, if you really had to have a school then, divination. Telepathy falls under divination after all (which we could also debate is correctly identified). When you break spells apart into hybrid spells it sort of breaks that scholarly pursuit which would honestly be more flavorfully done by creating a new categorical system. Yes, dual schools are more accurate to their effect; however, I'd argue that schools matter little to the actual mechanics of the game so having dual schools really just makes these spells slightly less accessible to specialized wizards.

Yes, I agree. Dual-school spells are clutter, and don't mesh well with any school-dependent effect (and if would help if the game had more of those, like e.g. school-based feats or familiars).

[Chronos]

My top spell from the PHB2 is Linked Perception (I think that's where it's from; away from books at the moment). It gives the entire party a buff to Listen and Spot, equal to twice the number of creatures in the party. Untyped. Find a way to get a hundred allies, get +200 to your perception skills. D&D has a sort of arms race between stealth and detection, but at the highest levels and highest optimization, nothing beats a sufficiently-high Spot check, other than an even higher Hide check, and thanks to this spell, you'll never get that even higher Hide check.

With dual-school spells, I think the biggest problem is that it's basically all drawback. Mostly the only thing that interacts with spell schools in any meaningful way is a specialist wizard's banned school, and if you've banned either of the schools of a dual-school spell, you can't cast it. So you'd basically never want a spell to be dual-school.

[Troacctid]

With dual-school spells, I think the biggest problem is that it's basically all drawback. Mostly the only thing that interacts with spell schools in any meaningful way is a specialist wizard's banned school, and if you've banned either of the schools of a dual-school spell, you can't cast it. So you'd basically never want a spell to be dual-school.

That's not true—there's also the bonus specialist spell slot, as well as Spell Focus, Improved Counterspell, reserve feats, advanced learning, and many similar effects.

[pabelfly]

So, there were several spells that had damage over time effects in PHB II. I think most of us would agree that they're extremely weak.

So, let's discuss a theoretical damage over time spell, using the Fireball spell as our baseline. Assume that besides damage happening once a round instead of at once, everything else is the same - damage type, applicable metamagics, saving throw, range and size, caster level cap, spell slot, everything.

1) How many rounds does combat last for you,
2) How much damage would this theoretical spell need to deal for you to think it on the same level as a Fireball?

My combats typically last 4 or so rounds, and I think if the damage was caster level/2, including half dice (so at level 7 it does 3d6 + 1d3 damage each round), I'd at least give them a go.

[pabelfly]

Alter Fortune – Even though I understand intellectually that 200XP isn’t that much at level 5-6 when you’d first get this spell, and it’s trivial at higher level, the penalty still makes it unattractive to me. And I’ve never been in a battle so close that it could have been decided by a single saving throw. Pass.

Animalistic Power – Couple this with the Ability Enhancer feat for +4/+4/+4 to physical stats instead of the +6 you’d get from an enhanced Bull’s Strength, etc. Would you forgo the extra +2 to STR for +4 to DEX and CON? I think I would.

Baleful Blink – 50% miss chance on melee or ranged attacks is a good effect, but the martials that would be most crippled by it have good fort saves and casters have plenty of other options besides spells with touch attack rolls. Doesn’t seem too effective to me.

Bigby’s Warding Hand – reducing move speed is a decent effect but most martials are STR-based, and this is roughly a coinflip against them. I’m not sure it’s worth preparing for the uncommon chance you run into the occasional dex-based martial or spellcaster that wants mobility.

Blade Brothers – if you have someone with a high set of saving throws (eg the one person in the group who dipped Paladin 2) this could be a really neat way to negate the effects of a spell. The short duration really weakens its effectiveness though. Maybe a Persist Cleric could make use of it?

Bleakness – 1d6 damage a round in an area, very short duration, and some minor boosts to Undead. This seems rather weak for a fourth-level spell, what am I missing?

Blessing of the Righteous – might be alright for characters with lots of hits each round, like volley archers or multiweapon fighters, but surely there are better things to do with a fourth-level spell slot.

Blinding Colour Surge – blind an enemy and give yourself invisibility? Pretty decent use of a second-level spell slot, IMO.

Blood Creepers – immobilizes and entangles. Not sure how this compares to other control spells but seems pretty decent.

Bones of the Earth – 4d6 damage per round is weak for a sixth-level spell. The other problem with damage per round spells is that enemies can just move out of the way, and enemies can still attack and hurt you. It’s better to just do damage all at once and try to kill them quickly.

Burning Rage – a +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls is a nice bonus for a first-level spell. Just find a way to get fire damage reduction to negate the normal downside to this spell, but that isn’t too hard.

Call to Stone – immobilizes an opponent over several turns, with saving throws allowed each turn.

Celerity – you don’t need me to tell you that taking your turn before it’s your turn is an incredibly potent option.

Chain Dispel – I don’t often play high-level games to make generalizations about combat or typical enemy encounters. It’s easy to see it would be devastating to use against a group of players, especially when you have fifteen plus levels worth of gear possibly being negated if this is successful. Now, does that work just as well against enemies you’d typically see at level 15? No idea, and I suspect the answer is: “know your DM and know your game.”

Channeled Spells – if you’re casting for more than one round, you are taking a risk that your spell won’t be disrupted, that the targets of that spell won’t move, and so forth. While there is a reward that you’ll do extra damage or healing without using extra spell slots, I think that the benefit should have been doubled if you cast for two rounds. At least for the blasting spell. A healing spell is often used out-of-combat and doesn’t need such a high reward.

Channeled Divine Health – this seems generally weaker than the generic Cure Critical Wounds, excepting you can boost the range and maybe get slightly more health above CL 15, but would take longer to cast to get that benefit. Pass.

Channeled Divine Shield – I could see getting DR 10/evil off a third-level spell slot being pretty decent for a DMM Cleric, depending on what you expected to face as an enemy.

Channeled Pyroburst – the first proper blasting spell and it’s pretty underwhelming. As a standard action, it does up to 10d6 damage in a 10ft radius (Fireball is better and only a third-level spell), and as a full-round action, it does 10d8 in a 15-foot radius. I’m sure you can find a +1 metamagic to do more damage with Fireball with the same casting time, and in a larger radius.

Chasing Perfection - +4 to all ability scores? And it becomes a +6 if you get the Ability Enhancer feat? Very nice.

Cloud of Knives – dealing a small amount of damage as a free-round action, once per turn. Nice flavour but I think you could do better with a second-level spell slot.

Crown of Might – if you want an enhancement spell that boosts your strength, Bull’s Strength lasts all day. I suppose this might be useful to the Duskblade, given their anemic spell list.

Crown of Protection – after casting this spell, as an immediate action, you can dismiss it for a +4 to saves or a +4 to AC for one round. That’s like adding a 20% miss chance.

Crushing Grip – the -2 to defensive stats is okay, and paralysis is nice, but it takes a while for it to have effect. Hold Person is a second-level spell, I’d just use that instead.

Curse of Arrow Attraction – -5 AC against ranged attacks is a pretty solid option, especially if there are several people in a party that could make use of this.

Dancing Blade – you could abuse this with a colossal weapon, since there’s nothing here that restricts the weapon you can choose by weight or size. A Sugliin would cost about 500 gold and do 12d6 damage a round. If you’re not using obvious cheese, I’d be pretty underwhelmed if I used a level 5 spell to do, say, 2d6 damage a round.

Deflect – the AC bonus only applies to one attack, but there’s no cap on your caster level determining the bonus.

Detonate – lets you slay an enemy (that’s not immune to fire) and do 20d6 fire damage in a 20ft radius. No doubt there are better ways to spend a ninth-level spell slot as a blaster, but seems like a fun spell.

Dimension Hop – there is a lot of utility in short-drange teleport, but offensively, this would let you drop enemies off bridges or cliffs, or putting enemies inside the range of someone with strong attacks of opportunity. Seems like a fun spell to add to your list if you can fit it in.

Dispelling Touch – you can use a touch spell to try to dispel one active effect, but not an item, unfortunately. My question would be, do other players find it typical for enemies to have dispellable spells on them at low level, and if that is a regular thing, would it be worth spending a turn and a spell slot to dispel that effect?

Doom Scarabs – 1d6 per two levels seems weak for a fourth-level spell, and I’m not sure you’d get much temp hit points.

Dragonshape – you can turn into a mature adult red dragon. Shapechange lets you pick any creature up to 25HD, including mature adult red dragons, and lasts several hours instead of a couple of minutes. While this is slightly better for this one specific monster, the extremely flexible nature of Shapechange makes it a far better spell choice.

Electric Vengeance – this would be a really nice spell for a low-level melee caster. 2d8 + Caster Level is a decent amount of damage at level 3 or 4.

Electric Vengeance, Greater – 5d8 at level 9 is not a bad amount of damage, but can also daze them until the end of your next turn.

Energy Aegis – this spell can save you up to 20 damage from one elemental attack. I could see this being quite useful even at high level, since it only uses a third-level spell slot and an immediate action.

Energy Surge spells – these spells aren’t bad, especially if you can cast your spells on an ally who does a lot of attacks, or the enemy is vulnerable to specific elemental types.

Energy Vulnerability – creating a weakness in an enemy that can be exploited would be quite nice for party members that can only deal certain types of damage, or for blasters fixated on a single elemental type. I had plans for an cold elemental Sorcerer, so this would be great on its spell list.

Evard’s Menacing Tentacles – weird spell, it relies on your STR for attack rolls and damage. I suppose you have one reason at least to make a muscle wizard.

Explosive Runes Field – I’m not sure this is a decent area control spell. If you want to slow enemies down, they might choose to ignore your attempts at area control, taking the 4d6 fire damage instead.

Field of Resistance – lets characters in an area gain spell resistance. Very nice effect, pity its so short.

Halt – Stops movement for one round, but also works on an enemy’s turn. Reminds me of Temporal Spiral (Truenamer Utterance), which doesn’t have the immediate action effect but lasted a lot longer. Makes me wonder how I could go about (ab)using this spell.

Healing Spirit – the autonomy of the healing spell is nice but this is pretty weak. 1d8 at level 7 isn’t going to do much at all.

Hesitate – reduces an enemy’s turns to a move action only. Nice effect since it targets Will saves, a typical weak spot of characters like martials who rely on moving to attack.

Hunter’s Eye – Sneak attack damage, but the duration is painfully short and being a ranger exclusive means you’re going to have terrible caster level. I hate that the first way to optimize the spell is to say that someone besides the Ranger should be casting it.

Incite Riot – looks like a fun mass combat spell.

Increase Virulence – increasing poison DC is very nice, but would have been a lot better if the duration wasn’t so painfully short.

Inevitable Defeat – I’d normally complain about damage over time effects, but being able to deal nonlethal damage might have some niche uses. I don’t mind the trade that the damage is extremely slow to happen in exchange.

Insight of Good Fortune – giving an ally a reroll is quite nice. I could see myself putting this on a support caster.





Invest Protection Line – two weak effects in one spell. I’d probably prefer one of the effects instead and for that effect to be stronger.

Kelgore’s Fire Bolt – this isn’t bad for a first-level spell.

Kelgore’s Grave Mist – for a level 2 spell, you can fatigue someone, which kills running and charging builds and adds a penalty to STR and DEX. Oh, and no saving throw. Seems like a really good spell to me.

Legion of Sentinels – attack rolls for this are based on your caster level (see errata), but your caster level is going to be low and so is the damage. I suppose you can cast this to help out the party Rogue, but still seems weak.

Longstrider, Mass – there are probably worse ways to use a fourth-level Ranger spell slot or a fifth-level Druid spell slot, but I don’t know them.

Luminous Assassin line – it feels pretty weak for their spell level.

Mana Flux – 20% chance of spell chance failure is a good effect but I don’t know if I’d spend a fifth-level spell slot to achieve this.

Mark of Doom – very cool, very flavourful effect. I dig it.

Mark of Judgement – attackers gain two points of damage back per hit. Most builds are going to based on doing a few powerful hits, so this isn’t going to be too effective, unless you have a group that all likes playing “death by a thousand cuts” builds.

Master’s Touch – cast to give someone a +4 on a one-round skill check. I mean, if there was really a skill check you absolutely needed to pass this might be useful.

Melf’s Unicorn Arrow – damage plus the potential to knockback. What I want to know is, can you knock someone into a wall with this spell, and if so, how much damage would it do? This could make the spell much more interesting to cast.

Meteoric Strike – this isn’t capped by caster level (but you’ll only find more things immune to fire at higher level). It’s some nice bonus damage for a gish when they’re not immune, though.

Mystic Aegis – gain spell resistance against one spell. This is a really good option, especially if you’ve been working on boosting your Abjuration casting level.

Mystic Surge – you can spend a standard action to boost the DC and casting level of you spell. If there’s a spell you really want to be sure works, and didn’t mind spending two rounds worth of actions to cast it, this would be an option, but I’m struggling to see it.

Overwhelm – it’s a pretty high-level spell, but if you need to knock out an enemy without killing them, this will do it.

Phantom Battle – no attacks of opportunity and all enemies are flanked. Doesn’t seem like a great effect for a fourth-level spell.

Plague – this seems more like a spell for DMs rather than players. I could imagine an evil necromancer using this against a weak human army trying to fight them, but I can’t really imagine a player in a situation where this is a good use of their spell slot or their turn.

Prismatic Mist – the effects are too random to care about, and a bunch are very underpowered for the level. Even if there is a good effect there, you might not necessarily get the good effect you want that effectively assists the team.

Pulse of Hate – a seventh-level spell that only does 2d6 damage a turn. Pass.

Radiance – the Dazzled condition is a -1 on attack rolls, search and spot checks. Oh, and it banishes darkness spells. Definitely not worth a fifth-level spell slot.

Ray of the Python – this is a weird spell. You stop enemies from making more than one attack a round, but that’s largely how many attacks a martial typically does at ECL 3-4, and TWF builds aren’t a big concern as two-hander builds per hit. I suppose you can Heighten the spell to boost its DC at higher level

Regroup – I suppose you can use this to bring characters back to you if they’re in a dangerous situation or get trapped somewhere, but there’s only so many spell slots or so many spells you can have on your spell list and niche spells like this are going to be hard to justify.

Renewed Vigor – is there really going to be many situations where you need to wholesale remove Fatigued and lessen Exhaust across multiple characters at once? Panacea is a single-target touch-range option that removes both Fatigue and Exhaust (not allieviates) and also removes a bunch of other options. I’d take that instead.

Righteous Burst – healing allies and hurting enemies at the same time is a good combo, pity this spell is way too weak.

Rouse – you can waken sleeping creatures with a spell. Is sleep something you’d worry about often?

Scattering Trap - … why?

Seeking Ray – 4d6 electrical damage isn’t bad for a second-level blasting spell, especially one with medium range.

Share Talents – you can use a second-level spell slot so characters can aid one another at a distance. Weak bonus but a fairly long effect time. Might be some edge cases where this is useful.

Slashing Dispel – dispel but with extra damage. Losing 2HP per spell level seems like it could add a decent amount of damage and it can work on multiple spells at once. Could be quite devastating against the right build.

Sonic Shield – by level 9 you’ll probably have a +1 ring of Deflection so this ends up being a +3 Deflection AC and some weak Sonic damage for a fifth-level spell slot. Pass.

Stand – when you’re prone you typically have at least one enemy next to you. This helps you stand up without taking attacks of opportunity. Oh, and it’s an immediate action too. I really like it.

Stay the Hand – forces one enemy to change their target with reduced accuracy. It doesn’t stop them dealing damage and it doesn’t stop others targeting you. Meh.

Stifle Spell – a chance to disrupt an enemy spellcaster. Since it only costs an immediate action this is quite a good spell to have on-hand.

Stretch Weapon – A spell slot used up so one weapon has some reach for one attack? Underwhelming.

Summon Golem – you can spend a ninth-level spell slot to summon a ECL 13 ally on the field. When you get this, you’re going to be, at a minimum, ECL 17, so it’s going to be pretty underwhelming support. It might be useful for flanking, I suppose, but if you really want to support the team melee character, there are better ways to spend a ninth-level spell slot. And if you want to summon it for utility, it’s hard to see what this particular summon will do that a summon from a lower-level spell slot won’t.

Thunder Field – knocks enemies prone and does a small amount of damage. Weak for a sixth-level spell slot.

Toxic Weapon – 1d10 Con is roughly 5.5 HP per level, which is a good amount of HP to lose on one attack. Pity so many things are immune to poison, especially at moderate to high level.

Trollshape – just get Polymorph instead and have infinitely more flexibility.

Vertigo – a DC 10 Balance check is less than 50% chance of failure, and that presumes they didn’t succeed on their Will save, and this spell will only become more useless at higher level. I can only see a Beguiler using it, and only for a short time, but more likely, they won’t.

Vertigo Field - a spell to create difficult terrain is very nice, especially against chargers, and the 20% miss chance and potential for nausea are icing on the cake. I like this.

[B]Whelm Line[B] – more options for nonlethal damage are nice. Sometimes you want to win combat without necessarily killing the opponents.

Wrack Earth – decent damage and difficult terrain. Ruined by the high spell level slot it needs, making stacking metamagic on it more difficult.

[Kurald Galain]

Cloud of Knives – dealing a small amount of damage as a free-round action, once per turn. Nice flavour but I think you could do better with a second-level spell slot.

This becomes pretty good if you can manage to sneak attack with it, e.g. with Greater Invis up.

Crown of Might – if you want an enhancement spell that boosts your strength, Bull’s Strength lasts all day. I suppose this might be useful to the Duskblade, given their anemic spell list.

Not really good for the duskblade either, because any frontliner worth his salt already has an enhancement bonus. Frankly, spells like this are the reason why their list is so anemic.

Dispelling Touch – you can use a touch spell to try to dispel one active effect, but not an item, unfortunately. My question would be, do other players find it typical for enemies to have dispellable spells on them at low level, and if that is a regular thing, would it be worth spending a turn and a spell slot to dispel that effect?

I'm not sure why you'd want to use this spell (which requires two rolls to remove an effect) when Dispel Magic is right there and requires only one. And has better range, too.

Hunter’s Eye – Sneak attack damage, but the duration is painfully short and being a ranger exclusive means you’re going to have terrible caster level. I hate that the first way to optimize the spell is to say that someone besides the Ranger should be casting it.

I think there was a way to add this to the wizard list, and then combine it with Cloud of Knives.

Regroup – I suppose you can use this to bring characters back to you if they’re in a dangerous situation or get trapped somewhere, but there’s only so many spell slots or so many spells you can have on your spell list and niche spells like this are going to be hard to justify.

The other way around works better. Move up so you're almost adjacent to an enemy, then cast this spell and place all your melee allies in front of you. Boom! Full-party pounce.

Stand – when you’re prone you typically have at least one enemy next to you. This helps you stand up without taking attacks of opportunity. Oh, and it’s an immediate action too. I really like it.

Works on allies, too. Yes, a nice support ability.

[pabelfly]

This becomes pretty good if you can manage to sneak attack with it, e.g. with Greater Invis up.

I suppose there are magical rogue builds that could really use it. Good point.

I think there was a way to add this to the wizard list, and then combine it with Cloud of Knives.

Man, if only there was a thread about adding spells to spell lists.

The other way around works better. Move up so you're almost adjacent to an enemy, then cast this spell and place all your melee allies in front of you. Boom! Full-party pounce.

Hey, that's a neat idea. Good work.

[Zancloufer]

Bleakness – 1d6 damage a round in an area, very short duration, and some minor boosts to Undead. This seems rather weak for a fourth-level spell, what am I missing?

Turn Resistance +4 is pretty strong. IIRC the only other core sources are Unhallow (which is a level higher, takes 24 hours to cast and has a 1k+ GP component) or Bolster Undead (which is a Neutral/Evil Cleric specific application of Turn Undead which actually grants +/-4 Resistance depending on the check). So not only is it the cheapest and most reliable source of Turn Resistance, it is also available to Wizards. This is before mentioning that it also STACKS with Unhallow or other sources of turn resistance.

Turning resistance doesn't grant a penalty to the d20+cha check the Cleric makes, it increases the undead's effective HD when it comes to being turned. 10-12 on the check will let a cleric turn an undead of equal level, but if they have turn resistance +4 the cleric needs to roll 22+. Doesn't hurt that the Cleric can't turn undead that are more than 4 levels above them and undead usually have very low CR/HD or posses turn resistance to start with.

TLDR: It's the quickest, cheapest and most reliable method of turn resistance AND stacks with other sources.

[Bullet06320]

Cloud of Knives – dealing a small amount of damage as a free-round action, once per turn. Nice flavour but I think you could do better with a second-level spell slot.

the trick here is to use arcane thesis and metamagic the crap out of it for best effect
there's a few threads out there optimizing it

[pabelfly]

the trick here is to use arcane thesis and metamagic the crap out of it for best effect
there's a few threads out there optimizing it

Sure, but that works for any spell you do it with. It speaks more about how broken Arcane Thesis and Metamagic stacking is, rather than how broken Cloud of Knives is.

[Bullet06320]

tru enuf, i just happen to have used cloud of knives and arcane thesis a few times to good effect, so its a combo i like

[Endarire]

Having read over the base classes, Beguiler is the winner because it's an INT-based spontaneous caster that also has Trapfinding and Rogue-like skills.

Knight felt like a prototype for ToB's Crusader.

Dragon Shaman is useful for its Vigor aura, but we can get that through the feat Draconic Aura (Vigor).

Duskblade felt like a prototype PF Magus. To me, martial adepts did the 'sorta caster' thing better, and Eldritch Knight is core. Plenty of other PrCs help the martial side while progressing casting.

[pabelfly]

Duskblade felt like a prototype PF Magus. To me, martial adepts did the 'sorta caster' thing better, and Eldritch Knight is core. Plenty of other PrCs help the martial side while progressing casting.

Duskblade is a pretty good gish-in-a-can class. You get to start gishing at level 1, you get some interesting and fun class abilities that support adding spells to martial attacks, and you don't have to take any feat taxes or the like to play it. Sure, you don't get ninth-level spells, but the power level for the class is actually pretty reasonable.

As for martial adepts, I feel like they play and feel sufficiently differently to casters to be considered their own thing.

Definitely understand the Magus comparison, though. Definitely felt it took some cues from the Duskblade.