An edit to Thieves Cant

[Witty Username]

Hey,
So rogues, they be considered weak in some circles, partially because the have inferior team play so I thought of a houserule to reduce that problem:
Thieves can't
During your rogue training you learned thieves' cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that knows thieves' cant understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly.

In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves' guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run. When you take the hide action, you may use this to coordinate allies within 30ft to hide as well. When hiding this way your allies may use their result or yours, whichever is higher.

I am still tinkering with the wording, but in short, when you stealth, the whole party does, and they can use your roll in place of theirs if your roll is higher (which is pretty likely all things considered).

Any concerns with this as implemented?

[Skrum]

I like it! It would at least put rogues back in their rightful place as the Best Stealthy Guy, as opposed to anyone with Pass Without Trace (seriously, what was the thought behind this spell?)

I still think they need a more "core" buff though. Like, they need to have a greater presence/impact in combat, and not just be skirmishing glass cannons (well, glass pistol).

I'd like to see them have

Opportunist
At 1st level, Rogues gain a pool of Opportunity Points, equal to their proficiency bonus. These points may be spent to use various class features. Opportunity Points are gained as an encounter begins (usually as initiative is being rolled, though the DM may rule that other situations also constitute an encounter). Unspent points are lost at the end of the encounter.

The rogue also gains an Opportunity Bonus; many uses of Opportunity Points allow the rogue to add their Opportunity Bonus to a roll. This bonus starts at 2, and increases as the rogue gains levels. It rises to 3 at level 6, 4 at level 11, and 5 at level 16.

If an Opportune Ability forces a saving throw, the DC is equal to 8 + proficiency bonus + Int modifier

Opportune Moment (1st level)
A rogue may spend an OP to add their OB to an attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw. This ability takes no additional action, though it must be declared before knowing the result of the roll.

Opportune Defense (3rd level)
A rogue may spend an OP to add their OB to their AC against a creature of their choice (i.e., the bonus only applies to attacks from that creature). This bonus lasts until the beginning of rogues' next turn.

Opportune Knowledge (6th level)
A rogue may add half of their rogue level to a skill check they are proficient in. This ability can be used after the roll is made, but it must be before the results are known. Once this ability is used for a particular skill, it may not be used again for that skill until the rogue completes a long rest.

Opportune Piety (8th level)
While rogues may or may not be religious, they are not above carrying around trinkets, holy books, and prayers "just in case," and even the non-believers among them can fake it well enough to get results when it matters. This ability may be used 2 + the rogue's wis modifier times, and it recovers after a long rest.

As an action, the rogue may spend an OP to rudimentarily channel divine energy. This may by used in one of the following ways
Heal: the rogue may heal themselves or another creature by touch. The target heals 1d6 x the rogue's Opportunity Bonus.

Turn Undead: Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.

A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can't willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can't take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there's nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.

Opportune Arcanist (level 11)
As an action, the rogue may spend 3 OP's to cast a spell that they just saw being cast. In order to copy a spell in this way, several criteria must be met
- the rogue must have seen the spell being cast
- the caster must have been within 60 ft of the rogue
- the spell must take no longer than 1 action to cast
- it must have been cast since the rogue's last turn
- it can be of a level no higher than the rogue's Opportunity Bonus
- the rogue must have any necessary spell components on hand (experienced rogues will carry a focus or spell component pouch in case the opportunity arises)

Regardless of the time it normally takes to cast the spell being copied, it takes the rogue an action to cast it using this ability. If the spell has a duration, the rogue may maintain it via concentration, as normal. Int is the casting stat for this ability.

Opportune Brilliance (15th level)
(hmm something something copy something something?? I'm drawing a blank for the Opportune "capstone")

[Rukelnikov]

I like it! It would at least put rogues back in their rightful place as the Best Stealthy Guy, as opposed to anyone with Pass Without Trace (seriously, what was the thought behind this spell?)

I still think they need a more "core" buff though. Like, they need to have a greater presence/impact in combat, and not just be skirmishing glass cannons (well, glass pistol).

Why? Why can't we make classes excel at different things instead all being fighters by a different name?

Factotum is my favorite 3e class, in concept at least, and it'd be awesome if WoTC decided to incorporate it, but turning the Rogue into Factotum is not "fixing the Rogue" it's replacing it.

[Skrum]

Why? Why can't we make classes excel at different things instead all being fighters by a different name?

Is the Factotum really a fighter by another name?

Factotum is my favorite 3e class, in concept at least, and it'd be awesome if WoTC decided to incorporate it, but turning the Rogue into Factotum is not "fixing the Rogue" it's replacing it.

Factotum is a rogue by another name; there's absolutely no feature or flavor to Factotum that doesn't fit the Rogue concept. The main difference is Factotum is both way better and way more interesting. There's no law that Rogue^tm must have no resources or whatever other criteria you're applying here

[Witty Username]

For oppotune moment and defense at least, I would drop the points.

Analytical combat:
The rogue adds their Intelligence bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Proficiency works to for a combat expertise ability, but Intelligence doesn't get used enough.

Slippery defence:
The rogue gains a bonus to AC equal to their Proficiency bonus. The rogue cannot benefit from this when wearing heavy armor.

Not to say these are needed, I just don't want to be tracking a finicky resource, if I want more bookkeeping, I'll play wizard.

Oh, and I wouldn't implement the fake casting stuff, I don't think aping caster playstyles is healthy martial design.

[GeneralVryth]

Not to say these are needed, I just don't want to be tracking a finicky reasource, if I want more bookkeeping, I'll play wizard.

Oh, and I wouldn't implement the fake casting stuff, I don't think aping caster playstyles is healthy martial design.

This doesn't get said often enough. if you want a spell caster like power system, play a spell caster. Not every player wants lots of buttons or resources to spend, they just want to do things. A Rogue with lots of resource options is better known as a Bard.

Edit:
As for the initial idea, as it does deserve a real answer. I am not sure I love the idea of everyone sharing the Rogue's roll, you can get in to some verisimilitude issues. But I could see a bonus like +5 up to the result of the Rogue's roll. Or maybe the Rogue share's their proficiency for those lacking it.

[Skrum]

Back to the OP though -

How would this ability work in combat? Can the rogue hide everyone with a bonus action (assuming conditions were right, like dim light)? Light and sight are not well defined in 5e - to the rogue's detriment, IMO - and this would compound on that in a big way.

[Witty Username]

Back to the OP though -

How would this ability work in combat? Can the rogue hide everyone with a bonus action (assuming conditions were right, like dim light)? Light and sight are not well defined in 5e - to the rogue's detriment, IMO - and this would compound on that in a big way.

At the moment, the intentions would be that this would be functional in combat, and the rogue would be able to hide party members as a bonus action with cunning action if they so choose and if conditions allow.

The DM determines when hiding is possible, that is the rules we got. I don't think we are going to solve that argument here.

As for the initial idea, as it does deserve a real answer. I am not sure I love the idea of everyone sharing the Rogue's roll, you can get in to some verisimilitude issues. But I could see a bonus like +5 up to the result of the Rogue's roll. Or maybe the Rogue share's their proficiency for those lacking it.

Sharing the roll is mostly to smooth over full party stealth, without just making the bonus bonkers like pass without trace does. One roll for the party ish, at least as I thought of it from a verisimilitude sense was like Zuko (blue spirit) escorting Aang out of jail from that early episode of Avatar, one could take issue with the effectiveness of it but the root idea is there.

The lighter version would probably be Adding prof bonus to allies and or providing advantage (stealth help), but that runs the risk of the one dude in heavy armor ruining the op for everybody.

[JellyPooga]

I'm not sure the addition to Thieves Cant is appropriate for 1st level and really ties the Rogue into the stereotype of always having Stealth proficiency. I like the team-player aspect of it, though. I would peg it somewhere in the 3rd-5th level range and offer the choice of applying it to one of the Rogues Expertise skills rather than solely Stealth, allowing the Rogue to direct group checks applicable to their chosen field, whether it be Stealth or Arcana.

I like Opportunist as a 'per encounter' resource rather than 'per rest', to maintain a degree of the Rogues "resource lite" model, but I think the effects are needlessly bland. Additions to hit and damage might be effective, but they're...well, a bit boring. I like the Piety and Arcanist options in theory, though I do think they both feel like tie-ins to subclasses rather than a core feature and they both could use some fine tuning and/or refinement in both effect and when they're accessed.

For me, I think if we're adding something to the core Rogue chassis, it would look more like Warlock Invocations. Unique 'tricks' that the Rogue can choose from a list that individually each give that Rogue a niche bonus or ability, with some resource-based or limited use (perhaps tied to Skrums Opportunist Points) and some at-will features for those that prefer that style or simply don't want the bookkeeping.

One potential route to go down with an "invocation" style Rogue would be to place Sneak Attack in there, as well as Thieves Cant (upgraded and possibly renamed), allowing for an entirely non-damage based build (potentially focused on debuffs and skill use), as well as a more open theme.

[Skrum]

I'm not sure the addition to Thieves Cant is appropriate for 1st level and really ties the Rogue into the stereotype of always having Stealth proficiency. I like the team-player aspect of it, though. I would peg it somewhere in the 3rd-5th level range and offer the choice of applying it to one of the Rogues Expertise skills rather than solely Stealth, allowing the Rogue to direct group checks applicable to their chosen field, whether it be Stealth or Arcana.

I really like this. I agree; rogue shouldn't just be about stealth, but I really like rogues getting a kind of "squad leader" vibe where they can direct the whole team through a particular skill use.

I like Opportunist as a 'per encounter' resource rather than 'per rest', to maintain a degree of the Rogues "resource lite" model, but I think the effects are needlessly bland. Additions to hit and damage might be effective, but they're...well, a bit boring. I like the Piety and Arcanist options in theory, though I do think they both feel like tie-ins to subclasses rather than a core feature and they both could use some fine tuning and/or refinement in both effect and when they're accessed.

Those early abilities were chosen pretty intentionally - I didn't want to frontload fantastic stuff, and I also think rogue need a numbers boost. Yes they need buttons to press, but they also just need to be more potent on the numbers side. Adding a little booster I thought fit the rogue feel while not messing with bounded accuracy too much.

[Witty Username]

I'm not sure the addition to Thieves Cant is appropriate for 1st level and really ties the Rogue into the stereotype of always having Stealth proficiency.

Eh, between sneak attack and cunning action, stealth is a pretty significant expectation of the rogue kit already. The 1st level concern is definitely in the brain though, but I figured this made sense as communication effect so Thieves Cant made sense, and want to make sure the effect is early enough to be useful, 3rd-5th would be inline with other classes getting similar so that is probably a good point to have it.

Other skills do have an easier time of it, since the help action is just a thing. Hiding made some sense as a feature since that is harder to justify the general rules applying.

[GeneralVryth]

I like the squad leader vibe as well. I mentioned in another thread (the extra attack one I think), about allowing Reliable Talent and Stroke to be used earlier but at a more limited rate. I think if you combine that, with the ability to share Reliable Talent (either to 1 other character, or the party for a group stealth check).

Something like level 2 or 3 can use Reliable Talent 1/Short. Level 6, 2/Short and can be shared with another party member or as part of a group check. Bring Slippery mind down to 7 or 9, and add a 1/Long use of Stroke of Luck at 15. Blindsense could be brought down to 5, and just add another ASI there. Mix that with some of the sneak debuffers from 5.5 and Rogue gets a solid buff while still keeping the same mechanical feel.

[Rukelnikov]

Is the Factotum really a fighter by another name?

Its the idea that all classes need to have a relative equal presence in combat.

Factotum is a rogue by another name; there's absolutely no feature or flavor to Factotum that doesn't fit the Rogue concept. The main difference is Factotum is both way better and way more interesting. There's no law that Rogue^tm must have no resources or whatever other criteria you're applying here

The rogue is someone that makes do with wit and skill, the Factotum incorporating divine healing and spellcasting diverges from that.

[Witty Username]

Bring Slippery mind down to 7 or 9, and add a 1/Long use of Stroke of Luck at 15. Blindsense could be brought down to 5, and just add another ASI there. Mix that with some of the sneak debuffers from 5.5 and Rogue gets a solid buff while still keeping the same mechanical feel.

I don't much care for blindsense because it doesn't seem to work RAW.

Slippery mind being brought forward makes sense. Use the One D&D version that covers Charisma saves and put it at 7th, 5-7 are pretty thin for rogue on the quick look, so it is a good spot for placing.

[GeneralVryth]

I don't much care for blindsense because it doesn't seem to work RAW.

Slippery mind being brought forward makes sense. Use the One D&D version that covers Charisma saves and put it at 7th, 5-7 are pretty thin for rogue on the quick look, so it is a good spot for placing.

It may be a little clunky RAW, but it's pretty clear on the concept. It also, seems to fit nicely with the flavor of Uncanny Dodge, having a feeling about something even if you don't see it.

[JellyPooga]

If we're spitballing ideas here, I'd be inclined to rename Thieves Cant to something a bit less, hmm, specific but still thematic and reworked for a teamwork aspect. Personally I quite like "Accomplice" because it definitively evokes an aspect of working together with others but with a little hint of the criminal, as befits the Rogues stereotype MO. Then I'd split it into a tri-part feature across three levels within the first two tiers of play:

- The first at 1st level might be something like Rapport and function a bit like Thieves Cant but applied to the Rogues Allies as a secret language that they're able to share and communicate between one another secretly, as well as being able to identify guild signs or learning a secret language (like Thieves Cant itself or Drow Sign Language...perhaps adding a line about an appropriate secret language for your Race or Background). Adding a minor numerical boon to the feature might not go amiss, something akin to the Hobgoblin Fortune from the Many (or Saving Face, depending on which source you're using) feels appropriate, if a little over-tuned. Add a line along the lines of taking 10 minutes to select a number of allies (equal to proficiency bonus?) to benefit from the feature and make it 1/long rest.

- The second I would call Teamwork (or if we want to stay thematic, maybe "Practiced Tactics" or "Slick Ally" or something) and should probably build upon or expand upon the numerical boon of Rapport and apply to the same selected group. Personally I would like to see it be all skills the Rogue has Expertise in, but would gladly limit it to a single chosen skill from those they have Expertise in (adding an additional one at 6th level when they get their additional Expertise skills, perhaps?). The actual bonus itself, I think, should probably focus more on granting a bonus to the chosen skill, rather than replacing rolls with whoever rolls highest/the Rogues. This would come online between 2nd and 5th level; I think it should be early enough to be an integral part of the Rogues identity as a team player.

- The third and final part would be Leadership based, or at least focused in that vein (thematic name might be "Boss" or something) and come online in the 8-10th level region, again building on the teamwork aspects of the Accomplice feature. I'm less certain about the actual benefit that should go here, but if we take away the OPs "use the Rogues check result for the whole group" from Teamwork, it could well be inserted here. Then again, we could also go down the route of adding a combat aspect here; granting adjacent allies a die of Sneak Attack or something?

Just throwing out some ideas.

[Witty Username]

I still think they need a more "core" buff though. Like, they need to have a greater presence/impact in combat, and not just be skirmishing glass cannons (well, glass pistol).

How far behind is rogue actually damage wise?

For example, I quick ran some 5th level comparisons (worst level for rogue because people just got extra attack)
And found they would be a few points behind (~4 points before accuracy, ~1 After).
And added extra attack to rogue, and it did perform better
Better than XBE or SS separately, it takes combinding them together to beat a rogue with a shortbow if they got extra attack. And that wouldn't take into account the 7th and 9th bumps to rogue damage.

[Skrum]

It may be a little clunky RAW, but it's pretty clear on the concept. It also, seems to fit nicely with the flavor of Uncanny Dodge, having a feeling about something even if you don't see it.

It's not even a little clunky, it's about 2mm from useless.

The only situation that this comes up is if a creature is hiding from you, and they're within 10 ft. So...probably invisible, and also taking the hide action. If they're merely invisible, you know where they are anyway as per RAW.

And TBC, it's not even blindsight - it only tells you what square they're in. You still are blind to them (so disadvantage on attacks, a big deal for rogues).

The fighting style, available at level 1, is about 10 times better than this ability.

[Darth Credence]

The description you have says that only another creature that has learned the Cant can understand the message. So how do all of the other party members understand the thief's directions to hide?
How does a person directing someone in full plate armor make the armor wearer hide better?

[GeneralVryth]

It's not even a little clunky, it's about 2mm from useless.

The only situation that this comes up is if a creature is hiding from you, and they're within 10 ft. So...probably invisible, and also taking the hide action. If they're merely invisible, you know where they are anyway as per RAW.

That may be correct RAW (I am not interested in checking or debating that point), but that's dumb. And being dumb should be ignored. Should it be possible to locate an invisible creature? Absolutely, but without some sort of special sense or check you don't get to just know where they are, whether they are "hiding" or not. The rules are guidelines, and when they produce something that doesn't make sense, they are best adjusted or ignored.

And TBC, it's not even blindsight - it only tells you what square they're in. You still are blind to them (so disadvantage on attacks, a big deal for rogues).

The fighting style, available at level 1, is about 10 times better than this ability.

All the more reason, that moving it up is a small buff without any worrying balance implications.

[Sorinth]

I think the idea of a Rogue being able to help their allies with stealth is something worthwhile but as written this seems a bit crazy, especially once they hit 10 and have Reliable Talent. I think you'd be better off having the Rogue give advantage to some number of party members (Maybe prof bonus) when everyone is stealthing. That way the other players stealth score is still relevant.

[Skrum]

That may be correct RAW (I am not interested in checking or debating that point), but that's dumb. And being dumb should be ignored. Should it be possible to locate an invisible creature? Absolutely, but without some sort of special sense or check you don't get to just know where they are, whether they are "hiding" or not. The rules are guidelines, and when they produce something that doesn't make sense, they are best adjusted or ignored.

I've always thought that the assumption is that if a creature is not taking the hide action, they're just clunking around making no effort to be quiet. And in a magical world where invisible creatures and the invisibility spell are the known thing, hearing footsteps/the sounds of a creature but not seeing anything, like it's not some huge leap to think "hey, there's someone invisible, and they're about 10 ft to my left."

Blindsense amounts of auto-succeeding on the perception check (when the invisible creature comes within 10 ft). Everyone else would have to roll, or more likely, the creature would have to beat their passive percep.

[Psyren]

Hey,
So rogues, they be considered weak in some circles, partially because the have inferior team play so I thought of a houserule to reduce that problem:
Thieves can't
During your rogue training you learned thieves' cant, a secret mix of dialect, jargon, and code that allows you to hide messages in seemingly normal conversation. Only another creature that knows thieves' cant understands such messages. It takes four times longer to convey such a message than it does to speak the same idea plainly.

In addition, you understand a set of secret signs and symbols used to convey short, simple messages, such as whether an area is dangerous or the territory of a thieves' guild, whether loot is nearby, or whether the people in an area are easy marks or will provide a safe house for thieves on the run. When you take the hide action, you may use this to coordinate allies within 30ft to hide as well. When hiding this way your allies may use their result or yours, whichever is higher.

I am still tinkering with the wording, but in short, when you stealth, the whole party does, and they can use your roll in place of theirs if your roll is higher (which is pretty likely all things considered).

Any concerns with this as implemented?

1) For any character that benefits from being hidden, which is most of them (including minions, sidekicks, pets and summons), you've essentially traded your bonus action or action to give everyone else in the party an extra action; that's rather bonkers. Just one other party member makes that a wash at a minimum, and the more you have the better it becomes. Alternatively, if you make the group hide attempt cost their next action as well, it becomes nearly useless, with no middle ground.

2) Just in general, ribbon features without a combat application are actually fine, so long as that's not the only feature a class or subclass gets at that level. Rogues get Thieves' Cant alongside all of their starting features, so it's fine that it doesn't do anything most of the time.

3) Rogues' upcoming Cunning Strike feature will give them debuffs they can apply to be more of a team player if that is your concern. Examples include making an enemy drop their weapon so an ally can get away safely without disengaging, poisoning an enemy so that they have disadvantage to hit your frontline, knocking them prone so you melee can dogpile them, or Blinding them to enable all three at once!

[Witty Username]

Rogues' upcoming Cunning Strike feature will give them debuffs they can apply to be more of a team player if that is your concern. Examples include making an enemy drop their weapon so an ally can get away safely without disengaging, poisoning an enemy so that they have disadvantage to hit your frontline, knocking them prone so you melee can dogpile them, or Blinding them to enable all three at once!

I am less concerned for One D&D on this subject, partially because as I understand it Pass Without Trace has a significantly weaker version in the playtest, (I can't find with pdf it was in though), which means One will have less of a desire for mechanics like this in the first place.

[Psyren]

I am less concerned for One D&D on this subject, partially because as I understand it Pass Without Trace has a significantly weaker version in the playtest, (I can't find with pdf it was in though), which means One will have less of a desire for mechanics like this in the first place.

I'm a bit (okay, a lot) confused by this; Pass Without Trace was not in any of the playtest packets, and it has nothing to do with Rogues in any event. Where is your information coming from?

[Witty Username]

I'm a bit (okay, a lot) confused by this; Pass Without Trace was not in any of the playtest packets, and it has nothing to do with Rogues in any event. Where is your information coming from?

I must be misremembering something I heard at the same time then.

But how Pass Without Trace relates is that one of the complaints with rogue is they can't stealth with allies as well as other classes, with ranger and shadow monk cited as examples of better classes for skill use and scouting. Pass Without Trace being the primary reason for this.

[notthegiant]

The idea of an Eldritch Invocation-style skill list for Rogues interested me, so I whipped up something that might work. It's pretty short and barebones as of now but it gets the idea across.

Knacks
A Knack is a special skill that Rogues learn. You gain two Knacks at 3rd level, and gain one new Knack at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level. When you gain a Rogue level, you can replace one of your Knacks with another one for which you qualify. If a Knack has a prerequisite, you can’t gain that Knack until you meet the prerequisite. You can take each Knack only once.

Defensive Stance (Prerequisite: 5th level). At the start of your turn while holding a melee weapon, you can take an offensive stance until the start of your next turn. During the stance, you can’t make opportunity attacks, and you can use your Uncanny Dodge feature without using your reaction once before the stance ends.

Incredible Speed (Prerequisite: 17th level). Once between long rests, you can cast Haste as a bonus action targeting yourself. When cast in this way, it requires no components.

Offensive Stance (Prerequisite: 5th level). At the start of your turn while holding a melee weapon, you can take an offensive stance until the start of your next turn. During the stance, you can’t use your Uncanny Dodge feature, and you can make an opportunity attack without using your reaction once before the stance ends.

Extraordinary Experience. You have experience dealing with a certain type of extraordinary being. Choose one from the following: Aberrations, Celestials, Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Fiends. You have advantage on Charisma and Intelligence checks made to interact with or know about creatures of those types.

Pocket Sand (Prerequisite: 9th level). As a bonus action, you can throw a handful of sand or gravel into the face of a creature within 10 feet of you. The creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.

Scrutiny. You gain proficiency in Insight. If you already have proficiency, you gain Expertise in Insight.

Shadow Guide (Prerequisite: 9th level). Once between long rests, you can cast Pass Without Trace without requiring a spell slot or material components. When you cast the spell in this way, you don’t gain the bonus to Stealth checks, but your allies gain the bonus as usual.

Slippery. You have advantage on ability checks made to escape grapples, and you can move into and stop in a space large enough for a Small creature. Gargantuan creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you while you're not Restrained or Incapacitated.

You Can't Hide (Prerequisite: 17th level). You gain Truesight out to a range of 10 feet.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Playtest Stuff

Show

I must be misremembering something I heard at the same time then.

Judging by this and prior posts, I think some of your info about the playtest is coming from unreliable second- or third-hand sources or something. There is a compilation packet spanning all 8.5 of them available here.

But how Pass Without Trace relates is that one of the complaints with rogue is they can't stealth with allies as well as other classes, with ranger and shadow monk cited as examples of better classes for skill use and scouting. Pass Without Trace being the primary reason for this.

Sure, I get that - but that's not exactly the rogue's fault or anything, it's not like they can control it if another party member has that spell.

I brought up Cunning Strike because the concern about rogues sparking the suggestion seemed to be their teamplay - rogues being able to debuff enemies relative to the entire party by sacrificing a bit of personal damage speaks to that current lack directly.

As for PwT - while it wasn't in the playtest, it wouldn't surprised me if they nerfed it out of the public eye. +10 is a massive buff in a bounded accuracy game, much less +10 to the entire party.

Regarding the current rogue - for the reasons I listed I think turning TC from a ribbon into a group buff is too strong.

[Witty Username]

It probably doesn't help that a couple of places I look have homebrew material and playtest stuff in same conversation, or things they want to see from the playtest. Thanks for the link.