Most states have prisons, our prison has a state...

[Samael Morgenst]

It would be possible to create an Orwellian Nightmare city-state/prison through (non epic) magic using official d&d 3.5 rules (no third party, no homebrew, but I consider Dragon Magazine canon)?

It would need to take into account several factors:

1. Sustainability: it should rely as much as possible on spells without costly components or XP cost, and/or on renewable sources / materials (special woods / bones / scales / chitin / hides, rather than metals or gems)

2. Isolation: it should be as hidden and difficult to discover - not mention to reach - as possible; therefore, also self sufficient

3. Mechanical cohercion: it should assume zero voluntary cooperation by the citizens/inmates and no reliance on persuasion and charismatic leadership, only the crudest and most brutal intimidation and/or mindcontrol.

---

Anyone want to discuss it or share some ideas?

[Inevitability]

Dead Magic plane with a permanent portal very high above the ground. Parachute in food and new prisoners when you need to, get people out via, say, a very thin rope that'll snap if more than one person gets on. Guarding the entry portal is easy because it can be literally anywhere, even on a different featureless demiplane. Alternatively, provide the prisoners with the basics of agriculture to let them sustain themselves, as long as it can't be repurposed into ladders and the like.

[Samael Morgenst]

Mh, the idea was about ruling a prisoner population, not merely confining it.

Those are some ideas I had:

* Mark of Justice (Clr 5): has no xp cost or material component, and has permanent duration: one for each prisoner, with the activating behavior being: "disobey the prison rules in any way, by action or inaction", with the prison rules basically demanding unconditional obedience.

* Geas (Clr 6): no xp/material cost, duration is indefinite if the task is not open ended; it's enough to establish a very time consuming task (some variation of "serve the prison director's untill you have produced at least a million gp of raw wealth").

* Hypnotism (Wiz/Sor 1): not true mind control but can implant a single permanent suggestion and at least ameliorate the prisoners attitude. Somewhat. Every little bit helps.

---

About the location, I was thinking about a subterranean complex, shaped into raw rock and soil through multiple Stone Shape and Wall of Stone spells. Either subterranean race as prisoners (orcs and half orcs), or bioluminescent fungi for illumination (and subterranean farming).

[spectralphoenix]

Flesh to Stone, or a monster that can petrify. Stone shape the inmate statues into recesses in the walls and floor. Your prison looks like a series of empty rooms. Finding a specific prisoner requires a code book that corresponds names and locations. Everything is lead-lined, naturally.

[zlefin]

Seems difficult to do; you have to keep the prisoners limited in their ability to interact with each other. Otherwise they can fight/kill each other, resulting in rapid leveling which could get sorcerer or cleric levels and counteract your measures.

[icefractal]

It depends on your goals - punishment, reformation, or just keeping the prisoners out of circulation?

For the latter, a "prisoners in stasis" approach both prevents internal rebellion and makes any rescue attempts from outside considerably harder. Petrification, as spectralphoenix mentions, is the most cost-effective way if you have a Medusa on staff. Sepia Snake Sigil, Temporal Stasis, and other spells are all alternatives.

For a more classic but still fairly high-magic prison, there's the Glass Box -
1) Make prison out of wall segments which have been rendered permanently invisible.
2) Enchant entire prison as a big Ring of Sustenance.
3) If somewhat humane, then put exercise equipment and books in the cells.

Prisoners don't need to leave their cells for any normal reason, so the doors can be difficult and loud to open. There do need to be air vents, but they can be small and they're hard to see because almost everything is transparent. Which also means the guards can easily look into cells from every direction, so a few patrol routes can cover a lot of prisoners. It does however require preventing spellcasting by the prisoners, and can't easily handle prisoners strong enough to smash through iron walls.

[AvatarVecna]

Stronghold Builder's Guidebook introduced the concept of wondrous architecture - essentially, magic items at 25/50% normal cost in exchange for not being portable (like a forge) or barely being portable (like a heavy piece of furniture).

At-Will Command Word item of Mind Rape CL 17 would normally require a market price of 275400 gp (which is too high to purchase pre-epic), but if it's built as wondrous architecture, the market price comes low enough to be purchasable without any additional shenanigans. Such a piece of wondrous architecture would cost you 68850 gp if it's essentially built into the room (like the frozen carbonite chamber, but mind control instead), or 137700 gp for something that can be moved around (like a heavy table you strap someone to before putting the mind erasing helmet on them).

This requires a Room Operator, who as a result of casting the spell will learn everything the target knows. This will be an agent of your ministry of truth, or whatever you end up calling it. Citizens can be encouraged to do regular checkups to ensure they remain loyal (and to ensure the MOT remains informed on their most private thoughts, of course). MoT agents can also be subject to the machine by higher ranking members, which will pool the knowledge of everyone they've mindraped themselves into that of their commander. This continues on upwards to whoever's in charge, who spends their time making decisions while mindraping their highest-level loyalists, consolidating everything everybody in the empire knows about into one person.

[Tohron]

Are there any limitations on how the prisoners are treated? If not, you could just give each prisoner a 2500 gp Ring of Sustenance, then Stone Shape them into a block of solid stone with small air holes. Even the Mountain Hammer maneuver requires that your limbs be free to move. If the prisoner is a caster that can cast spells with no verbal or somatic components, additional measures might be needed.

[Samael Morgenst]

Mabye I worded badly my OP.

What I meant was: it is possible to become king /emperor / ruler of a population that hates you and that would love to either kill you or flee, through magical cohercion?

[Maat Mons]

As a precautionary measure, everyone is put under the effects of Greater Bestow Curse, using the variant curse option from BoVD, p28, “The target cannot cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or activate spell completion or spell trigger items.” This is done even for people with no spellcasting ability just in case they later manage to gain some form of spellcasting. In fact, after the initial population is established, Greater Bestow Curse is cast on everyone at birth.

I also like the variant curse option from Dr348, p36, that basically forces the subject into an alignment of your choosing. Plus the one earlier in the same article that makes the subject incapable of lying. And the one later in the same article that renders the subject unable to use three skills of your choosing. Choosing bluff would prevent the subject from deceiving with technically true statements. Picking Sense Motive would make the populace extremely gullible. Maybe also Gather Information and Knowledge (local) so no one has any idea what’s going on. Banning Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, and Open Lock could also be useful. There’s no limit on how many times you can Curse someone, as far as I know.

If the population you want to control is entirely made up of Elves with the Otherworldly feat, Planar Binding is an option.

Edit: If Bestiary of Krynn isn’t considered third party, I dig Turbidus Leeches, which individually are CR 3 creatures that attach to hosts indefinitely and render all Charms and Compulsions permanent while they are attached.

Edit 2: There’s also the Necrotic Tumor spell, from Libris Mortis.

[AvatarVecna]

Mabye I worded badly my OP.

What I meant was: it is possible to become king /emperor / ruler of a population that hates you and that would love to either kill you or flee, through magical cohercion?

Mindrape is instantaneous but can be undone with Wish/Miracle, and to a degree Break Enchantment. The real person is still under there, trapped beneath the fake person you made. Could downgrade to a Dominate Person machine, or sidegrade to a Dominate Monster machine, and then the person has to get re-dommed every couple weeks or so. Could be reworked with a spell that doesn't actually compel obedience, it just kills them if they disobey, like Geas or Mark Of Justice. Those can be dispelled pretty simply though, unlike Mindrape.

But tbh I don't see the appeal? If you've got the money to mind control a nation even a little bit, you've essentially got the money to mind control a nation all the way. Mark Of Justice and Geas leave them the option to rebel if they want to take the consequences, but what despot would want them to have that option? This is my kingdom. It's not "you obey or you die", it's just "you obey", period, end of story. Why give them an option that results in disobedience and a body that has to be cleaned up, if the option is only on the table if I allow it to be on the table?

EDIT: It just seems like more effort for worse results. I guess I'm just not getting the prompt.

[icefractal]

In that case it depends on the ruler's objective - do they specifically want to rule over people who hate them, as like a sadistic thing? Or do they just want subjects who can't disobey?

Because in the latter case, only fairly cheap methods of control are viable compared to something like Simulacrum.

[Satinavian]

Mabye I worded badly my OP.

What I meant was: it is possible to become king /emperor / ruler of a population that hates you and that would love to either kill you or flee, through magical cohercion?

That sounds more like just the typical tyranny.

If you really want to include the "magical coercion" angle and the hostile population, you could say that the magical coercion only applies to powerful people who all magically love the emperor and keep all the others in check. And everyone who aquires power need to eventually undergo the mindrape ceremony to also love the emperor.

[AMFV]

It would be possible to create an Orwellian Nightmare city-state/prison through (non epic) magic using official d&d 3.5 rules (no third party, no homebrew, but I consider Dragon Magazine canon)?

It would need to take into account several factors:

1. Sustainability: it should rely as much as possible on spells without costly components or XP cost, and/or on renewable sources / materials (special woods / bones / scales / chitin / hides, rather than metals or gems)

2. Isolation: it should be as hidden and difficult to discover - not mention to reach - as possible; therefore, also self sufficient

3. Mechanical cohercion: it should assume zero voluntary cooperation by the citizens/inmates and no reliance on persuasion and charismatic leadership, only the crudest and most brutal intimidation and/or mindcontrol.

---

Anyone want to discuss it or share some ideas?

The main thing you need is a Weirdstone, once you have one of those it's relatively easy to deal with most problems. Of course there are going to be some creatures that are generally too powerful to easily imprison, but there are like planar prisons for them.

[Jack_Simth]

It would be possible to create an Orwellian Nightmare city-state/prison through (non epic) magic using official d&d 3.5 rules (no third party, no homebrew, but I consider Dragon Magazine canon)?

Yes, it would, provided you have enough casting resources.

I presume the ruler is evil? Mother Cyst is a useful feat here. Necrotic Cyst (2nd) to enable Necrotic Tumor (7th):

If the subject fails his saving throw, the cyst envelops a larger portion of the subject’s higher brain, and you gain complete control of the actions of the subject permanently.

No GP or XP cost, so part 1 is fine. Explicit complete control, so part 3 is fine as well. Part 2 just means picking your location and setting up suitable farming. Theoretically doable as early as 13th without shenanigans.

Still, though:

If you have a city of 1,000 people, you'll need to cast the spells approximately 1,050 times to get everyone (plus several to hundreds more yearly on babies - exact rate depends on the species, of course). If you have a city of 100,000 people, you'll need to cast it 105,000 times (plus hundreds to thousands more yearly on babies). Reach (on Necrotic Cyst) and Chain Spell (on both) helps here.

So you're probably going to want help... which means you'll need other casters with the spells under your thumb. But, oh, hey: We have mind control!

Your city is a fragile little butterfly, though, when you are mind-controlling people who are mind controlling people....

[Samael Morgenst]

In that case it depends on the ruler's objective - do they specifically want to rule over people who hate them, as like a sadistic thing? Or do they just want subjects who can't disobey?

Well, ok, it seems that I'm truly bad with words.

What I truly meant is: what is the easiest, less costly, and less level-demanding, verosimile (no improbable Pun-Pun cheese) way to decome a mind controlling dictator ruling a community like it was a slave colony or a prison, using magic but lacking genuine , personal charisma (no Leadership feat, no iperoptimize mundane Diplomacy)?

What spells can put a small, ridicolous, insignificant excuse for a man on the seat of power?

[zlefin]

But then those spells aren't really putting an insignificant nobody in charge; instead you have a powerful mage in charge who graciously allows an insignificant nobody to pretend they're important. Unless you're talking about a situation where the powerful mage who set it up all is no longer around so some nobody got control of enough magic items to basically be a WBL-mancer. Either way though it's not really rule by a nobody, it's just rule by somebody strong with a lot of power. I mean, if you have a city of low-level people, lvl 20 of any class could rule just by being able to solo the entire town; and the kinds of magic you mention ultimately amount to just powerful mages running things.

[AMFV]

Well, ok, it seems that I'm truly bad with words.

What I truly meant is: what is the easiest, less costly, and less level-demanding, verosimile (no improbable Pun-Pun cheese) way to decome a mind controlling dictator ruling a community like it was a slave colony or a prison, using magic but lacking genuine , personal charisma (no Leadership feat, no iperoptimize mundane Diplomacy)?

What spells can put a small, ridicolous, insignificant excuse for a man on the seat of power?

Thrallherd.

[Shinoskay]

There are a few ways to fit Monsterous regeneration into a prison but im not recalling them at the moment. but this would prevent prisoners from being able to easily kill each other. Maybe check out the stronghold builders guide (its official 3.5)... it has some of the best base and fort mechanics that would absolutely help you design a prison.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, ok, it seems that I'm truly bad with words.

What I truly meant is: what is the easiest, less costly, and less level-demanding, verosimile (no improbable Pun-Pun cheese) way to decome a mind controlling dictator ruling a community like it was a slave colony or a prison, using magic but lacking genuine , personal charisma (no Leadership feat, no iperoptimize mundane Diplomacy)?

What spells can put a small, ridicolous, insignificant excuse for a man on the seat of power?

Dominate Person, 4th level Sor/Wiz spell.
controlled Population size is dependent on:
1) Caster level (days/level spell)
2) Spell Slots (if you're caster level 7, and can cast it 3/day, you're going to be able to control, at most, 21 people)
3) Metamagic (chain spell adds CL victims per casting)
4) Save DC (for obvious reasons)

So a specialist Wizard-7 could maybe keep a tiny village under direct control (21 people, minus those who save).
Add a Rod of Chain Spell, and it gets better (adds 147 secondary targets), but saves become much more problematic.

However, you only usually need to control the right people, especially in a situation where leaving is difficult. E.g., a tiny warm valley heated by volcanic hot springs surrounded by leagues and leagues of otherwise inhospitable ice sheets. If you have the big strong bruisers under your control, that may be enough (after all, enforcers are how it's done IRL).