OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Well that's no fun.

..... Bloodfeast was also closer?

[Faldrath]

And in the middle of all the mayhem... Roy actually managed to miss his greatsword throw.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Note how quiet and effective V has gotten since their own character arc. Rather than boast and go for the most powerful and dramatic spell, and exhaust their higher level spells, they are quietly strategizing and conserving power and no longer driven by a need to feed their own ego.

They seem quite repentant and now are singularly focused on the mission to save the world, and their own soul in the process.

Quiet character growth from V, as well as Belkar earning their status as useful party member and no longer faking character growth.

Love it.

[brian 333]

I am amazed at how often I am wrong about predicting things like this. A poster specifically called out this scenario and I said that I didn't believe it would happen because I did not know how they could travel through the dungeon with a full sized dino.

It's almost as if The Giant is writing this story based on the opposite of my comments.

With no evidence that this is so, I declare it to be.

[The MunchKING]

I am amazed at how often I am wrong about predicting things like this. A poster specifically called out this scenario and I said that I didn't believe it would happen because I did not know how they could travel through the dungeon with a full sized dino.

It's almost as if The Giant is writing this story based on the opposite of my comments.

With no evidence that this is so, I declare it to be.

In that case you should say "the Order will lose this fight and all the cool characters will die".

[137beth]

Let's go Bloodfeast!

[Kareasint]

That is how a Nat 20 on the Dispel check would look.

That had to hurt.

[gbaji]

You're making an assumption here that isn't based on any evidence we have.

I think that the evidence we have supports the idea that the dungeons in the Hollow are separated from each other by decent amounts of solid rock/earth, and not just walls that can be burst through by a large creature running into them.

But where did they teleport? You're assuming it's not connected but for all we know, it could be the exact same trick Serini used before with the secret door without the door part.

Except that was a specificaly and intentionally created secret room within a single "dungeon" (backstage specifically). There is nothing in the strip that shows this being used to travel between dungeons.

In other words they are just below monster hollow but there isn't any door to walk in unless a couple of behemoths (and possibly a beholder with a disintegration beam) opens one up.

Why? Sereni has an entire hill, surrouding area, and the earth beneath to build dungeons in. Why not have 10-20 feet of earth (at least) between the nearest points of each one? Certianliy, the Final Dungeon should not have any other dungeon spaces anywhere near close enough for this type of travel. Assumption on my part? Yes. But my assumption is based on Serini not being a complete idiot.

I doubt it's thin, but the point stands. It is a trick we've seen her use before and it really doesn't cause any story problems here.

Again. A trick we've only seen used to make shorcuts between rooms in the same dungeon. We have never seen this used to travel from one dunegon to another.

The dungeon is likely still located somewhere nearby and is just surrounded by walls that travel\divination\whatever as Team Evil noted before.

More than "walls" though. Solid stone. Far more solid stone than any creature could create a hole thorugh by running into it. That's kinda the point to having something in a dungeon in the first place. Doubly so if the only way to get to this dungeon is to explore through hundreds of others one first, to open the portal to the Final Dungeon.

Also Team Evil doesn't have to be really nearby. They just need to be able to spot a newly formed giant hole and go look it up. Most likely the good team will have to run away before that happens.

Spot a newly formed giant hole where? I'm really confused by this. Where exactly do you think this hole will open up? You seem to be suggesting that Calder could run at a random wall and smash through it, Kool-aide man style, and leave a Calder shaped hole which TE can just walk through and get into the Final Dungeon. But that makes zero sense. No one would place their Final super secure dungeon in a location where any single wall could be bashed through and reach directly to the outside.

It's a dungeon. It's underground. There's no walll to smash through to get out. And if there is, that's a massive flaw in the dungeon design. I mean, it could be the case, but that would be monumentally stupid of Sereni to have designed it that way when it's just as easy to not have such walls that can be broken through.

Not at all. This is a failure of imagination. There are plenty of things that can get this done without Calder actually burrowing out.

From somehow getting Sunny to use his unlimited disintegration effect to possibly tampering with the strings of creation (that we just happen to see a few strips ago) to maybe releasing some other monsters that are trapped here etc.

Um.... Maybe? But that's a bit different than "Calder will run away in a manner that would leave a giant hole in this place".

There already exist spells that allow one to dig through solid earth. TE likely has those spells, but have not used them to try to find the Final Dungeon. I suppose one could just happen to accidentally dig/disentigrate/<something with the threads> in a direction that just happens to open a tunnel that goes somewhere "out" of the Final Dungeon. Maybe. But given the location the're in, it's far more likely it would open up into either backstage or one of the other dungeons (if I were laying this out, I'd put the actual locatioin of the Final Dungeon as far from the exterior areas of the Hollow as possible, with backstage being closest, then the various regular dungeons wedged in wherever they can fit).

So even if this did happen (possible, but unlikely), the most likely result would be a tunnel between the Final Dungeon and a random normal dungeon. Which means there's good odds that TE will not find it at all (they've already searched that dungeon), or will run into it randomly between now and when they would have found the portal anyway (statistically maybe cutting their time in half, but with a good chance of not cutting their time at all).

The original point stands: The odds of team evil walking through all of Serini's traps is 0. No way in heck is that happening. And since it's a given fact that their detect traps ability is so dreadful that they haven't noticed the swap-overs they aren't going to start paying attention to them now.

It's possible they'll have another reason how they bypass the traps, sure.
But I think some after effect of Calder's battle seems quite likely.

Yeah... I can see this from a narrative point of view. I also don't think we're going to see a bunch of strips of TE running into and dealing with the traps in the Final Dungeon. But honestly, I don't think "bypass them entirely" is on the table either. If we were to speculate Calder causing things to be easier for TE, I'd suggest that he just runs/flies off into the dungeon, clearly triggering tons of stuff but continuing on Leroy Jenkins style. The Order realizes its suicide to try to follow him, so they shrug and head through the door and towards the gate room, then barricade themselves in there, and wait. They hear lots of noises and thumps and explosions and whatnot. Then silence. Then we fast forward a couple days, and TE arrive through the portal to see devastation, roaming around making note of all of the dead bodies of various creatures, triggered by traps and released, only to turn on eachother or run around triggering more traps, etc.

TE wonders what happend here, shrugs and continues on, eventually reaching the gateroom where the Order is waiting...

The shortest estimation for Team Evil finding the Final Dungeon was two full days.

Even if several hours went by since that estimation, the OotS & Friends will have the time to rest, recover and prepare before Xykon reaches the portal.

So so long as no one dies, they should be fine.

Even if someone dies, they should be fine (except the person who dies will lose a level, and they'll be out some diamond dust).

As far as I know, Greater Dispel Magic would have worked on Bloodfeast even inside a dragon's stomach, right?

Haha! Well... technically, being inside Calder's stomach would block line of sight and line of effect, so.... no?

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

Well. Durkon did cast mass resist fire, so everyone should take somewhat less damage from firebreathing. But V did take a direct hit from a polar ray spell, which given the spell level means a minimum of 15d6 damage to V right there. Then V got grabbed/clawed, then smashed to the ground, then maybe hit by fire (unclear if V was in the area with that last one). V may or may not have drank a healing potion before the latest firebreathing though.

Honestly, the one that seems the most strange is the polar ray. V got hit full on, there's no save, so full damage. Yet, doesn't appear to be significantly damaged at that point (I see no noticable damage indicators in 1298). All damage seems to be from being grabbed and then dropped, and then breathed on. It's unclear what protective spells V may have cast prior to this battle though, so maybe there's something signifficant going on there? It seems unlikely for V to have protection from cold cast ahead of time, but that's almost the only thing I can think that would make this happen. Anything else would result in nearly as many D6s of damage as V has D4s of HPs (just from the polar ray).

V has never been shown to have a con any better than "mediocre", so yeah... should be dead. So must be some combination of defensive spells maybe?

[Blue Dragon]

I've never seen a dragon end up with a broken jaw before. But that was one perfect spell casting there.

That's a cool-looking dragon, sir. Where do I get one? You may PM me if needed.

[Ghosty]

What's V's HP?

Enough, with enough potions. (Just go with it.)

Didn't they eventually pop off a Mass Resist Fire at some point too?

[Ruck]

I think that the evidence we have supports the idea that the dungeons in the Hollow are separated from each other by decent amounts of solid rock/earth, and not just walls that can be burst through by a large creature running into them.

*snip*

Also, "If this ravine hadn't been built up out of multidimensional stone, you could just ghostform your way through..."

[Simbosan]

I have one thing to say

LGLRNK!!

[jokem]

So, if V could have undone the polymorph at any time, why wait until now?

??? Because it is way cooler to do it in the depth of a dragon's mouth!

[jokem]

Enough, with enough potions. (Just go with it.)

Didn't they eventually pop off a Mass Resist Fire at some point too?

I think it was a mass resist acid, to help vs the 'acid' lake.

[dmc91356]

I think it was a mass resist acid, to help vs the 'acid' lake.

Twas both in fact: This happened later - https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1296.html

Third panel, to be precise.

[Arin]

I noticed the same thing and had a thought: We still have an unspoken prophecy that Belkar will, in some roundabout way, cause V's death. And V is precariously close to an allosaurus that is about to fall to the ground. What if V dies here, Belkar's involvement being "crushed to death by a dinosaur that was only present because of you"?

Nah, dramatically unsatisfying. Also, at this point, too obscure to even be a recognizable callback. Besides, we still have two more fiend markers to cash in with [pick pronoun for V here].

No we don't. Belkar said "any", not "all", and it was fulfilled when he killed the Oracle. The Oracle was just teasing Belkar with the exhaustive list.

Oh, we totally do. Sure, Belkar didn't technically say 'all', but the rules of dramatic storytelling clearly would not let a sentence fragment like the Oracle's slip out if it wasn't going to retroactively have a very satisfying ending to it.

Of course, it could also be "As for the elf, the elf kills you" (maybe in the final climactic showdown, like what happened to Kraagor).

No way. Belkar is heading for his major redemption arc moment - the moment he uses the Protection From Evil item and it doesn't hurt him anymore. V can't kill a nonevil character.

I have maintained that the logical, dramatic tragedy ending of V's character arc is to permanently lose all spellcasting powers while saving the world (perhaps by destroying the Crimson Mantle arrifact?). This would be the ultimate "death" of the main thing that made V, V. The kobold was getting more absurd and metaphorical with each passing suggestion, so I feel lile this tracks.

Now this is more like it! V does need [pick possessive pronoun for V here] own redemption arc, and giving up [pick possessive pronoun for V here] most desired thing in the universe - arcane power - for noble sacrificial reasons is definitely one of the Dictates of Poetics.

Belkar pointing out the need for V to do this, or suggesting it, would absolutely qualify as fulfilling the prophecy. On the other hand...

=================

For my own prediction, I think Bloodfeast is going to become the new guardian of that chamber, once Calder is out of the picture, and I think we're going to see Xykon and Redcloak battling it. Belkar having to sacrifice himself to hold them off by commanding Bloodfeast in that battle would definitely tick all the right story boxes. Right, Elan?

Right, Arin!

=================


Edit: I forgot to add, I actually did have an alternate theory about V having already "caused the death" of Vaarsuvius. V damned [pick possessive pronoun for V here] soul to the fiends; something that only occurred because [pick pronoun for V here] entered into conflict with the ABD. Which has Belkar's fingerprints all over it, from failing to kill the hex witch on time to being so frustrated with the halfling and clearly, by the comment in the last panel, taking it out on the dragon kid.

It does also have the benefit of being a stretch, reinforcing someone else's comment about the Oracle's list getting more and more convoluted as he went on.

[ManuelSacha]

I love it!
Vaarsuvius literally said "bite this!"

[Peelee]

Oh, we totally do. Sure, Belkar didn't technically say 'all'

No, but the halfling did clearly specify "any of", which carries the explicit evocation that any one of the listed possibilities can be enough to fulfill the given soothsaying.

but the rules of dramatic storytelling clearly would not let a sentence fragment like the Oracle's slip out if it wasn't going to retroactively have a very satisfying ending to it.

And we got a satisfying ending to the fragment when the Oracle said he wasn't buying it either.

[Arin]

No, but the halfling did clearly specify "any of", which carries the explicit evocation that any one of the listed possibilities can be enough to fulfill the given soothsaying.

And we got a satisfying ending to the fragment when the Oracle said he wasn't buying it either.

A not unreasonable interpretation. Time will tell. ;)

[drazen]

. V can't kill a nonevil character.

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

[Arin]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

Well, when I say V can't kill nonevil characters, I mean the current repentant, beat down version of V. The one that existed before learning about the Familicide's side effects absolutely could kill nonevil characters. And not just in a bystander way, either - I honestly don't think [pick pronoun for V here] was "just representing the halfling" with the Linear Guild.

Character growth!

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

Ooooh. I quite like that thought, as it does fit with the technical wording of the Oracle's prediction. After all, in D&D worlds, life without breath is totally possible.

[Starknight62040]

Calder is having a rough day.

Couldn't happen to a nicer dragon.

[Ghosty]

Not to open up this can of worms again, but V has already killed many, many non-evil characters (the Draketooths) with Familicide.

I also meant it would be like Kraagor -- Belkar would be jumping into.the fray headfirst, as usual, and V casts a rift sealing spell that kills Belkar. I didn't think V was just going to blast him to bits. Although I suppose an errant Prismatic Spray could make Belkar into cool statue - maybe that seals the rift so he cannot be de-stoned without destroying the world.

But hey, I am no author of a fun webcomic, so who knows? Besides Rich.

I was laughing at the, 'V can't kill anyone not-Evil,' part. Taking that as true (it's not), plenty of things have stood in the wrong spot when my casters have started flinging AoEs around...

Though that's not how I suspect Belkar will go. As a much smarter person than me has put it, (sorry for badly paraphrasing you), 'The Giant is likely to subvert the prophecy by playing it entirely straight, and having Belkar die after the events in OOTS have concluded.' And with us seeing that B no longer gets shocked by his clasp.

We're missing a final few pieces to this puzzle. How the Snarl really works, what caused the final bust up of the Scribble, what happens next for the Gods, and how RedCloak tragically cannot transcend (except maybe at the end) the awful price he paid for his position. I do think V Disjoins the Mantle though. And bad things happen to hir.

[KorvinStarmast]

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

Drank a potion.

[cp314159]

Ooooh. I quite like that thought, as it does fit with the technical wording of the Oracle's prediction. After all, in D&D worlds, life without breath is totally possible.

Calling it now: Belkar will volunteer to be sealed in a stasis trap with Bloodfeast to secure the gate. Per the oracle's prophecy, the gate will never be breached again. A perfect subversion to the expectation that Belkar will die in some way, the culmination of his redemption arc, and a resolution to the Chekov's gun of Serini using volunteers AND the blurring of roles between monsters and PCs.

[SpykeMH]

Does this put V back into the lust category of Belkar's proto-brain?

[Rollin]

[pick pronoun for V here]
...
[pick possessive pronoun for V here]

One may, of course. But with a nickname like V's, who needs pronouns?

[Lexible]

Which, notably, was not what happened when Darth V polymorphed after being swallowed by the ancient black dragon.

Darth V did not polymorph, they shapechanged. They're different spells.

Also, Bloodfeast was in Calder's mouth as indicated by the "Gyyaa! Gyyaa!", and by the close-up on Calder's mouth and teeth.

[Edric O]

Never attempt to feast on the Bloodfeast.

[Mic_128]

Never attempt to feast on the Bloodfeast.

He's the Bloodfeaster, not the Bloodfeastee.