OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

If you knew you're a dinosaur, but everyone around you sees you as a lizard and treats you as a lizard... wouldn't you be thrilled for even a moment of being able to show everyone: "See? I ~am~ a dinosaur, godsdammit!"

Yep.

Soon's goodbye to Miko is one of the "Damn it's dusty in here, I'm not crying, you're crying" moments.

It was well presented, yes.

[dtilque]

How the hell is V still alive? Took a Polar Ray and then a greatwyrm's breath weapon ... damage exceeds HP by double.

But how did V take damage from the latest dragon's breath? A Red Dragon's breath weapon is a cone of fire and any being (except the dragon) in that cone takes damage. But V is way outside the cone, so he/she should not have taken any damage. The other members of the Order, except Haley, were plausibly in the cone, but not V.

[danielxcutter]

It looks like Calder's mouth was so close to the ground that the fire spread out, and also for older dragons their breath weapons are huge. I figure it's another product of OotS running on "mostly 3.5e with some verisimilitude added".

[Kardwill]

But how did V take damage from the latest dragon's breath? A Red Dragon's breath weapon is a cone of fire and any being (except the dragon) in that cone takes damage. But V is way outside the cone, so he/she should not have taken any damage. The other members of the Order, except Haley, were plausibly in the cone, but not V.

You can see V fleeing the "splash" of the firebreath in panel 1, and V has multiple burn marks on the face and on the robe in panel 5.

So either the cone "splashed" on the ground to include pretty much everyone except the flying characters, or Calder "sprayed" his breath across the entire room.

In any case, it's far less focused than his 2 previous blasts.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm. Actually, I think there were abilities that let dragons change the shape of their breath weapons? I think it might just have been a choice between lines and cones, though.

[Provengreil]

As Belkar's animal companion, would Bloodfeast get a boost to intelligence?

This is not a RAW question, because Belkar is not a normal ranger. He dumped Wisdom ...

This goes to whether or not LizardFeast remembers that he is really Bloodfeast the Extreminator cruelly trapped in a tiny body, or does he just think of himself as a lizard and then it's WHOA HOW DID I GET HUGE?

I'd lay real money he knew who he really was the whole time. He's taken several actions throughout the last couple arcs that only make sense if he remembers his time as a large predator loyal to the team. Most notably, attacking the vampire instead of hiding and waking up Minrah to help fight Serini and Sunny.

Also, he knew exactly how to fight Calder the instant he was big, going for a neck chomp rather than confusedly colliding with the dragon.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd lay real money he knew who he really was the whole time. He's taken several actions throughout the last couple arcs that only make sense if he remembers his time as a large predator loyal to the team. Most notably, attacking the vampire instead of hiding and waking up Minrah to help fight Serini and Sunny.

Also, he knew exactly how to fight Calder the instant he was big, going for a neck chomp rather than confusedly colliding with the dragon.

So Bloodfeast is smart, perhaps smarter than Belkar (Vaarsuvius sticks head into chat, pontificates at length about the use of low bars in limbo dancing, leaves), but maybe that's from Vector Legion training, not from being an animal companion.

[bunsen_h]

Also, he knew exactly how to fight Calder the instant he was big, going for a neck chomp rather than confusedly colliding with the dragon.

I theorize that Bloodfeast does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to reptiles: Hate or Lust.

EDIT: In evolutionary psychology, people refer to four basic drives: fighting, fleeing, feeding, and fornicating. The last of those is subject to unbowdlerization, of course.

[Peelee]

In evolutionary psychology, people refer to four basic drives: fighting, fleeing, feeding, and fornicating. The last of those is subject to unbowdlerization, of course.

Of course. My high school bio/natural sciences teacher described it as "the four F's - fighting, feeding, fleeing, and mating."

[Quizatzhaderac]

Some people are wondering how the order will get Bloodfeast out of the room. The obvious answer is the same way Serini got Calder into it.

Oh, look at the time! No more follow up questions!

Calder is pretty big, so his AC suffers due to that.

All thing equal, yes, bigger creatures are a little easier to hit; however, one size category generally means CR levels, and AC correlates strongly with AC.

So all things considered, bigger creatures are usually much harder to hit.

[Provengreil]

So Bloodfeast is smart, perhaps smarter than Belkar (Vaarsuvius sticks head into chat, pontificates at length about the use of low bars in limbo dancing, leaves), but maybe that's from Vector Legion training, not from being an animal companion.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Scruffy is that actual registered animal companion here. Bloodfeast is just responding to a heck of an animal empathy check(at this point, probably more than one).

For all his faults, Tarquin did know how to raise and train armies. I wouldn't be surprised if BF was smarter because of him: in fact I've already theorized pretty much that effect in an earlier thread, when discussing how BF was winning grapples against Calder.

[Shining Wrath]

Am I the only one bothered that the four F's are not presented in alphabetical order?
Feeding, fighting, fleeing, friend-making?

Anyway, I think we may get to see Serini pull a potion of "Shrink down big critter" out when the time comes. She must have had some way to get enormous creatures into her dungeon, routinely.

I also think that Calder is about to panic, and a panicked dragon with no breath weapon available is going to lash out in all directions.

[Kardwill]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Scruffy is that actual registered animal companion here. Bloodfeast is just responding to a heck of an animal empathy check(at this point, probably more than one).

I just looked at the 3.5 animal companion (I was more of a 3.0 jockey a few years ago), and that is one scary housecat ^^

[Peelee]

Am I the only one bothered that the four F's are not presented in alphabetical order?
Feeding, fighting, fleeing, friend-making?

English typically works best on how it sounds, not how it's written. Fight feed flee fmate is how i always heard it. Dunno if it sounds better than the other combinations, but alphabetical order is more or less irrelevant.

[Lord Torath]

Anyway, I think we may get to see Serini pull a potion of "Shrink down big critter" out when the time comes. She must have had some way to get enormous creatures into her dungeon, routinely.

V probably has Polymorph Other prepared (panel 8), as previously pointed out in this thread. Bloodfeast doesn't need to be trapped here.

[Story]

I thought it was attack rolls and saving throws.

Sorry, I misremembered. I guess that's what I get, since I haven't touched D&D stuff in over seven years. But either way, there's no nat20 rule for dispel checks, which is what the original commenter was talking about.

[Rinazina]

V probably has Polymorph Other prepared (panel 8), as previously pointed out in this thread. Bloodfeast doesn't need to be trapped here.

This is a very nice point. I don't remember V ever casted a Polymorph of any kind, and we can add two considerations:

1. exists a spell that only works on familiar, it might be the subtext of the quoted strip ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-s...orph-familiar/ )
2. The one originally suffered by Bloodfeast https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-s...ful-polymorph/ is permanent and maybe what V has isn't.

I've a question magic-related: can Calder heal himself? I remember Dragons have access to Cleric spells too, and Heal should be in an accessible level. (but I don't know if a Dragon actually can).

Other dangerous path: Calder charming Bloodfeast?

[Peelee]

V probably has Polymorph Other prepared (panel 8), as previously pointed out in this thread. Bloodfeast doesn't need to be trapped here.

Worst case scenario, V can always just use a Wish (panel 6).

[Rinazina]

Worst case scenario, V can always just use a Wish (panel 6).

Oh we've an archivist here! I'm sure you excluded the usage of the most effective consumable tool, panel 10, a doily is likely to be spared for closing the snarl-trap, nothing less.

Also, I think that the doily is probably one of the few things that V still has from <3 Kyrie. should keep it close to hir heart.

[Peelee]

Oh we've an archivist here! I'm sure you excluded the usage of the most effective consumable tool, panel 10, a doily is likely to be spared for closing the snarl-trap, nothing less.

Also, I think that the doily is probably one of the few things that V still has from <3 Kyrie. should keep it close to hir heart.

The problem with the doily is that V has grown beyond their lust for power (or gold, or merely being born with a heart full of neutrality). The most opportune time for V to use the doily would have been after they defeated Xykon with the soul splices, but we all saw how that turned out.

[F.Harr]

YEAH!

That is so hilarious. :)

[JonahFalcon]

Called it so far.

Kind of easy to see where this is going.

V will cast Dispel Magic on Bloodfeast, who kills the dragon.

However, this will mean Bloodfeast will no longer be able to follow, so the party loses a potent member.

Though, it was hinted by Rich taking pains to show a shot of V recovering.

And no, V will not make Bloodfeast the size of a lizard again. Don't you see what's going on?

Paladins no longer able to help.
Sunny no longer able to help.
Now Bloodfeast no longer able to help.

Minrah will be removed next.

[Lord Torath]

Though, it was hinted by Rich taking pains to show a shot of V recovering.

And no, V will not make Bloodfeast the size of a lizard again. Don't you see what's going on?

Paladins no longer able to help.
Sunny no longer able to help.
Now Bloodfeast no longer able to help.

Minrah will be removed next.

Sunny can be restored with a simple Lay on Hands from either of the paladins, and suddenly Sunny, Lien, and O'Chul are available to help again.

[Shining Wrath]

Called it so far.



Though, it was hinted by Rich taking pains to show a shot of V recovering.

And no, V will not make Bloodfeast the size of a lizard again. Don't you see what's going on?

Paladins no longer able to help.
Sunny no longer able to help.
Now Bloodfeast no longer able to help.

Minrah will be removed next.

OR ...

Paladins use lay on hands on Sunny.
Sunny helps Paladins reach battle.
Bloodfeast is very much able to help right now.
Minrah is actually pretty durable (dwarf fighter / cleric).

As I said upthread, Serini must have some mechanism for moving large monsters through her dungeons, those outer gates are too small for many monsters.

[gbaji]

And no, V will not make Bloodfeast the size of a lizard again. Don't you see what's going on?

Paladins no longer able to help.
Sunny no longer able to help.
Now Bloodfeast no longer able to help.

Minrah will be removed next.

Given that the previous prediction included Bloodfeast killing Calder, we can assume you are not speaking just about who is no longer able to help with the fight with Calder. Which leaves us to assume you are suggesting that this is all about trimming down the cast to just the 6 members of the Order for the final battle at some future point? I guess? (saying "no longer able to help" isn't useful if you don't tell us what they're no longer able to help with).

If that is what you are suggesting, at least one major problem is that the paladins are literally standing in the room outside this one, through which they will need to travel to get to the secret passage that they were going through to get to the gate (which is presumably where whatever final battle is to come will occur). So.... Either they stay in this room forever, in which case Bloodfeast is there, or they leave Bloodfeast behind, but then pick up the paladins and Sunny.

So really the only consideration here is how to get Bloodfeast through that doorway in the room below where the paladins and Sunny currently are. And there have been several suggestions of ways to do just that. So no. I see no pattern of removing party members here.

[JonahFalcon]

We shall see.

[Vikenlugaid]

It has long been my opinion that Soon wasn't as bad as Serini remembers. The only time we actually saw him we saw a competent (to the point of scary) foe of Evil and a stern but compassionate father figure. Altogether, he seemed like a decent guy. Unraveling whose fault was whose 80 years ago is a task best left to the Deva on duty at the gates.

1- To say nice words to a diying person is not being specially good, it is just not being an really bad person. I can't think of anyone non-evil character of this comic who wouldn't have done the same.

2- We know how dead Soon was, but maybe he wasn't like that in the past. Maybe he went better as he aged, maybe he felt guilty?

[Menas]

...

As I said upthread, Serini must have some mechanism for moving large monsters through her dungeons, those outer gates are too small for many monsters.

Indeed. This again begs the question of how Calder arrived at this part of the dungeon in the first place?

Bottom line: If Rich really wants BF to be able to continue on from this battle with the OOtS party in order to advance the story the way he wants, I'm sure he'll be able to find a narrative and/or game mechanic that allows him to do so. Or he can simply create one. He is the Author/DM/OOtS universe fabricator after all. If he really wants something to happen, it's going to happen.

[Precure]

I think Serini built the dungeon over him.

[Kish]

We shall see.

What would falsify your hypothesis, then?

I think saying that three of the Order's allies being out of the room they're in (and instead in the area they'll be passing through next if they proceed at all) means they've been eliminated from the comic in some meaningful way is already insupportable, but what events would cause you to agree that your hypothesis is refuted? Would Sunny being healed and once again able to fly do it? Would the Order rejoining the paladins before they see Xykon do it?