Getting wishes from an Efreeti

[Samael Morgenst]

So let me get it right:

to get a Wish from an Efreeti the safe way you use Planar Ally, pay and xp cost of 250 xp and gift the genie an object worth 1000 gp, or you take a shortcut with Planar Binding, pay nothing but risk to fail - and the genie will probably try to subvert the wish. I got it right?

[AMFV]

So let me get it right:

to get a Wish from an Efreeti the safe way you use Planar Ally, pay and xp cost of 250 xp and gift the genie an object worth 1000 gp, or you take a shortcut with Planar Binding, pay nothing but risk to fail - and the genie will probably try to subvert the wish. I got it right?

That is actually not factually correct. The DM decides what is a reasonable request. Generally paying market is probably reasonable depending on what you're likely to do with your Wish but the DM has COMPLETE control over that. Unless you know your DM you can't actually say what would be allowed here.

The reason is this:

If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.

Because there is no formal definition what an unreasonable demand is the DM is entirely within their rights to say anything. "All Efreeti consider being forced to grant wishes by lesser beings unreasonable". That's not a very fair ruling, sure. But it is a RAW ruling. So you can't actually say what would happen.

Edit: Also there's no guarantee that even paying would encourage it not to twist your wish. They're not good beings.

[Inevitability]

It's worth noting that Planar Ally doesn't just give you a commandable efreeti either:

By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway).

There is no way to guarantee your deity will send you an efreeti, and in fact most deities have listed outsiders/elementals that are quite different. Maybe there's some obscure god who sends efreet but I wouldn't know about it.

[Samael Morgenst]

So what is the safest and cheapest way to get those wishes by RAW, beside buying Wishes scrolls?

[Tzardok]

Edit: Also there's no guarantee that even paying would encourage it not to twist your wish. They're not good beings.

I like to draw on lore from older editions where 3.x remains silent, and because of that I have to emphatically support this. According to Secrets of the Lamp (a 2e sourcebook and the only sourcebook on genies in all editions), efreets get audited by the Grand Sultan's officials after granting wishes and get punished if it is determined that they didn't put enough effort into screwing over the mortal. They are governmentally mandated to be malicious genies.

[InvisibleBison]

So what is the safest and cheapest way to get those wishes by RAW, beside buying Wishes scrolls?

The safest way is to use planar binding to call a noble djinni, which has the same wish-granting ability as an efreeti but is chaotic good aligned. The only wrinkle is that noble djinn might not be a separate kind of creature from regular djinn, and thus can't be specifically called. However, if your DM rules that to be the case, you can simply call a djinni, hope to get a noble, and if you don't have the normal djinni tell you the name of a noble djinni, ideally one who's willing to sell its wishes to mortals. This technique is also cheap in terms of money expended, though it might require multiple castings of magic circle and planar binding, so it's not the cheapest in terms of spell slot expenditure.

[Samael Morgenst]

I found nothing on that issue but, wouldn't be logical to contact an entity through communication spells and try to get an arrangement before calling/conjuring it?

[Darg]

The safest way is to use planar binding to call a noble djinni, which has the same wish-granting ability as an efreeti but is chaotic good aligned. The only wrinkle is that noble djinn might not be a separate kind of creature from regular djinn, and thus can't be specifically called. However, if your DM rules that to be the case, you can simply call a djinni, hope to get a noble, and if you don't have the normal djinni tell you the name of a noble djinni, ideally one who's willing to sell its wishes to mortals. This technique is also cheap in terms of money expended, though it might require multiple castings of magic circle and planar binding, so it's not the cheapest in terms of spell slot expenditure.

They still want to screw you over though.

If you don't mind your character being desperate and in need and lawful or good, you could call Pazuzu's name 3 times. The first wish will always be the best.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Be an outsider with LA +0 (such as having the Otherworldly feat), have a devoted familiar, take the Supernatural Transformation (3 Wishes) feat, polymorph into the appropriate genie type, have your familiar make your wishes for you, and...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Be an outsider with LA +0 (such as having the Otherworldly feat), have a devoted familiar or psicrystal, take the Supernatural Transformation (Wish) feat, polymorph or metamorphosis into the appropriate genie type, find a way to get [Su]s of the things you turn into (such as Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer), have your familiar or psicrystal make your wishes for you, and...

[Crake]

Be an outsider with LA +0 (such as having the Otherworldly feat), have a devoted familiar or psicrystal, take the Supernatural Transformation (Wish) feat, polymorph or metamorphosis into the appropriate genie type, find a way to get [Su]s of the things you turn into (such as Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer), have your familiar or psicrystal make your wishes for you, and...

This is such backward logic. You can't take Supernatural transformation for an SLA you don't have, and you can't take assume supernatural ability or metamorphic transfer for an Su ability that the monster you're transforming into doesn't have. You're trying to put the cart before the horse there, twice

So what is the safest and cheapest way to get those wishes by RAW, beside buying Wishes scrolls?

Either have a DM that's willing to let you get easy, free, early game wishes, or hit level 17 and cast it yourself.

There's no other option. If your DM doesn't want you to have access to early and easy wishes, there is no "but the rules say I can!" answer, they all involve DM cooperation. Even buiying a wish scroll requires the DM to allow said scroll to be buyable in the first place.

[AMFV]

Either have a DM that's willing to let you get easy, free, early game wishes, or hit level 17 and cast it yourself.

There's no other option. If your DM doesn't want you to have access to early and easy wishes, there is no "but the rules say I can!" answer, they all involve DM cooperation. Even buiying a wish scroll requires the DM to allow said scroll to be buyable in the first place.

This is why the very most important step in optimization is to find material to use to blackmail your DM.

[Samael Morgenst]

Either have a DM that's willing to let you get easy, free, early game wishes, or hit level 17 and cast it yourself.

There's no other option. If your DM doesn't want you to have access to early and easy wishes, there is no "but the rules say I can!" answer, they all involve DM cooperation. Even buiying a wish scroll requires the DM to allow said scroll to be buyable in the first place.

Assume a virtual reality using strictly RAW official rules.
Also assume vacuum and spherical cows.

[Tzardok]

There are no rules for the Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum in 3.x. Instructions unclear; try again.

[Crake]

Assume a virtual reality using strictly RAW official rules.

As always, under these conditions: Pun-pun.

But ask yourself: why though? No game actually runs under those conditions. Even if you're playing a completely solo player-as-dm-and-PC game, you wouldn't run things like that, because it would just be akin to turning on godmode and getting bored in 5 minutes when you mary sue your way through everything.

[AMFV]

Assume a virtual reality using strictly RAW official rules.
Also assume vacuum and spherical cows.

That's not even possible. The game just breaks. I use Planar Binding, what requests are considered "unreasonable"? Without somebody to say what requests are considered unreasonable the game just breaks. Somebody has to be there to make that call. Fortunately the game is designed with such a person present.

[Jay R]

Assume a virtual reality using strictly RAW official rules.
Also assume vacuum and spherical cows.

If there are already spherical cows, then I no longer need a wish.

[icefractal]

As has been pointed out, the "compel service" part of Planar Binding is somewhat GM-dependent. However, Planar Binding also brings the creature there physically. At which point (or by using Plane Shift and finding the genie in question) you have at least two alternatives:

Fair Dealing
For this, I'd go with a Noble Djinn instead of an Efreet, but YMMV. If you're a Wizard 11+ with any amount of optimization, you're easily qualifying as a useful ally. So make a deal. You'll have to pay for the wishes, but (since they're not paying anything to cast them) a bulk rate should be viable, and/or providing mercenary / magical-consulting services in lieu of gold.

Force
Knock out, kidnap, and mind-control an Efreet. Now there's no wish twisting, because they're your puppet that does what you say. And not just for one set of wishes either, because why let them go? Is this evil? Yeah, probably (doing it to another evil creature like an Efreet may put you lower priority on Paladin hit lists, at least). Will the Efreet want to kill you? Definitely. Will they succeed? Depends on how many friends they have and how good your defenses are.


Now, as regards things like "Efreet have unlimited wishes (by utilizing mortal 'wishing slaves')! WTF are you going to offer them they would care about? And if you try to go against them, you'll get crushed like a bug!" -
Well, yes if that's the case these won't work. But also, they'll be ruling all the planes (or else wiped out as too big a threat), so the setting will be very different. I think for a setting other than "Efreet rule the waves planes" we have to assume they truly can't benefit from their own wishes.

[Tzardok]

Congratulations, you just picked a fight with the Grand Sultan and the whole Empire of Efreet.

[icefractal]

Perhaps so, but ...

People do manage to murder citizens of powerful nations and get away with it. If you publicize yourself as "Bob the Efreet Trapper" then yeah, war is on. But if all anyone knows is that Fred the Efreet disappeared a few days ago, with no leads, then it's going to depend on whether Fred has enough friends with enough resources to find out what happened and track you down.

Again, assuming the Efreet are not ruling the entire multiverse with their wishes, as (not) seen in most D&D settings.

[AMFV]

As has been pointed out, the "compel service" part of Planar Binding is somewhat GM-dependent. However, Planar Binding also brings the creature there physically. At which point (or by using Plane Shift and finding the genie in question) you have at least two alternatives:

Fair Dealing
For this, I'd go with a Noble Djinn instead of an Efreet, but YMMV. If you're a Wizard 11+ with any amount of optimization, you're easily qualifying as a useful ally. So make a deal. You'll have to pay for the wishes, but (since they're not paying anything to cast them) a bulk rate should be viable, and/or providing mercenary / magical-consulting services in lieu of gold.

This again requires DM adjudication though. And we're back to where we started.

After listening to the engineer’s description of the problems and asking a few questions, he went to the boiler room. He looked at the maze of twisting pipes, listened to the thump of the boiler and the hiss of the escaping steam for a few minutes, and felt some pipes with his hands. Then he hummed softly to himself, reached into his overalls and took out a small hammer, and tapped a bright red valve one time. Immediately, the entire system began working perfectly, and the boilermaker went home.

When the steamship owner received a bill for one thousand dollars, he became outraged and complained that the boilermaker had only been in the engine room for fifteen minutes and requested an itemized bill. So the boilermaker sent him a bill that reads as follows:
For tapping the valve: $.50
For knowing where to tap: $999.50
TOTAL: $1,000.00”

The value of labor is not determined by how much that labor costs me. But by how much people are willing to pay for it. Wishes don't become instantly cheaper because they're easier for me. Maybe if they were trying to undercut the market, but because the world isn't run by people using Noble Efreeti wishes we can assume that's not the case.

Force
Knock out, kidnap, and mind-control an Efreet. Now there's no wish twisting, because they're your puppet that does what you say. And not just for one set of wishes either, because why let them go? Is this evil? Yeah, probably (doing it to another evil creature like an Efreet may put you lower priority on Paladin hit lists, at least). Will the Efreet want to kill you? Definitely. Will they succeed? Depends on how many friends they have and how good your defenses are.

What method of mind control are you using? You can say "mind control" but that's not a spell in the game nor is it a game mechanic, and most of the spells that explicitly control an outsider directly are around the same level as Wish.

Now, as regards things like "Efreet have unlimited wishes (by utilizing mortal 'wishing slaves')! WTF are you going to offer them they would care about? And if you try to go against them, you'll get crushed like a bug!" -
Well, yes if that's the case these won't work. But also, they'll be ruling all the planes (or else wiped out as too big a threat), so the setting will be very different. I think for a setting other than "Efreet rule the waves planes" we have to assume they truly can't benefit from their own wishes.

We could actually apply that pretty sound reasoning to the whole deal.

[Jack_Simth]

This is why the very most important step in optimization is to find material to use to blackmail your DM.

Bribing with pizza is usually safer: Someone you are blackmailing may want revenge.

[Jay R]

Adjudicating a wish is always judgment-dependent, and so it always requires the DM's approval.

The only safe way to get wishes is to take the wishes when the DM intends for you to have them, and then to make the kind of wishes that the DM approves. You cannot force safe wishes on a DM against her will.

There is a legal maxim: Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge.

Similarly, any player knows the rules. A good player knows fantasy literature. A great player knows the DM.

If you want safe wishes, then step one is to find out how the DM handles wishes. And there is no step two until you've spent a lot of time and focus on step one.

Really -- a PC making a wish through a djinn or efreet is asking a supremely proud and powerful being to do something for you, against his will. You are simulating it by ... asking a supremely proud and powerful being to do something for you, against her will.

Do not attempt to "force" a safe wish from a DM. It can't be done.

[AMFV]

Really -- a PC making a wish through a djinn or efreet is asking a supremely proud and powerful being to do something for you, against his will. You are simulating it by ... asking a supremely proud and powerful being to do something for you, against her will.

Do not attempt to "force" a safe wish from a DM. It can't be done.

Except the DM is probably human so you can just use Dominate Person that's way lower level than the Dominate Monster that you'd have to use on the Djinn

[icefractal]

I guess it depends on when you encounter them. I think genies (and wish-granting demons) work best as something for fairly low-level PCs to encounter. When you're like 3rd level, an Efreet is an immensely scary force who can just end you on the spot if you **** around. And even the "safe" Wishes are far beyond what you could reasonably get otherwise.

By the time you're casting Planar Binding though, they're more like a peer. Who you might later surpass. After all, weren't all those djinn bound inside lamps by a mortal, back in the stories? I think that at higher levels, to get that same "tangling with powers beyond your comprehension" feeling, you really need "beyond normal stats" beings offering "beyond the safe uses" type of Wishes.

[Crake]

I guess it depends on when you encounter them. I think genies (and wish-granting demons) work best as something for fairly low-level PCs to encounter. When you're like 3rd level, an Efreet is an immensely scary force who can just end you on the spot if you **** around. And even the "safe" Wishes are far beyond what you could reasonably get otherwise.

By the time you're casting Planar Binding though, they're more like a peer. Who you might later surpass. After all, weren't all those djinn bound inside lamps by a mortal, back in the stories? I think that at higher levels, to get that same "tangling with powers beyond your comprehension" feeling, you really need "beyond normal stats" beings offering "beyond the safe uses" type of Wishes.

The “safe” uses of wish are only safe when you are the one casting wish. Any time an efreeti is casting wish, its not a safe wish, so you may as well go for “unsafe” requests

[Jay R]

Given that we all know different DMs are different, perhaps it would help if we each explained how we adjudicate wishes in our own worlds.

Here's mine, from my "Rules for DMs" document.

Spoiler: Jay R's approach to wishes

Show

52. Wishes ought to be a social contract between the players and the DM. Don’t try to screw up the game, and I won’t try to screw up your character.

a. If a game system has clear, unambiguous limits for wishes, and a wish falls within the limits, then it should work as intended.

b. Wishes should rarely go wrong.

i. The best way for a wish to fail is to have no meaningful effect at all. Wasting a wish is well-attested in fantasy literature. It doesn’t hurt the game or the PC.
ii. When a wish actually goes bad, it should not cripple or destroy the PC, but at worst put the character in a difficult and threatening situation. Difficult and threatening situations are a DM’s stock in trade.
iii. When a wish has an actual negative effect on a PC, it should be a challenging obstacle, not a character-destroying tragedy. And it should end before it stops being challenging and becomes merely a boring weakness.

c. There is no sentient entity processing the wish (other than the DM). It is a pure magical effect – akin to programming a computer. There is neither benevolence nor malevolence involved. The risk of a wish is the same as the risk of a car or a power saw; it goes where you steer it, not where you intended to steer it.

i. There will be a very few malevolent exceptions to this. Efreeti can be malevolent because they are phrasing the actual wish.
ii. But after the wish has been phrased, it remains a pure magical effect with no sentient entity processing the wish.

d. Unless it will screw up the game, the DM should follow the exact wording of the wish. This is usually, but not always, the same as the intent.

i. Following the exact wording of the wish does not mean abusing homonyms. If they ask for an extra feat, they don’t get extra feet.
ii. Following the exact meaning of the wish does not mean a bizarre, unlikely meaning. It means the most reasonable meaning of those exact words.
iii. If it took you more than a few seconds to come up with that interpretation, then it isn’t the obvious meaning of those words.

e. A wish will be fulfilled in the simplest manner possible. If a player wishes to have the only sword in the world, it is easier for the magic to put him and his sword on a separate world than to find and destroy every other sword on the primary gameworld.

f. An unselfish wish is always much safer. Wish for bumper crops near the village, or for the plague to end, and the magic flows much more smoothly.

g. A wish grants one effect. If the PC wishes for a sword and a shield, then he gets a sword. The shield is another wish. If he has two wishes, he gets the first two effects requested. If he wishes to travel to another continent to be introduced to the king and marry the princess, then he gets the travel and to meet the king, and his wishes are done.

i. Among other things, this means that long contract-like texts of legalese won’t work. Only the first clause is enacted.

h. The primary principle remains this: Don’t try to screw up the game, and I won’t try to screw up your character.

These rules were written for myself, for the way I run games. I am not saying that anybody else “should” run a game this way. These rules exist to help me be consistent, and so my players can know what to expect.

Anybody else is free to use them as guidelines, to modify them, to use some but not others, or to ignore them altogether, as seems best to you. Not everybody agrees on how to run a game, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Darg]

Those rules are fine. The problem is that there IS a middle man when using another creature to grant your wish. As there is a middle man casting the wish for you, then there is very much room for shenanigans being involved. If a player is going to abuse mechanics for unlimited free wishes, so can any other creature in the game. It's completely possible for that efreeti that you mistreated to call in a favor from another efreeti that they were owed and have a wish cast to geas the character to have their wishes undone and give away their wealth.

[spectralphoenix]

Now, as regards things like "Efreet have unlimited wishes (by utilizing mortal 'wishing slaves')! WTF are you going to offer them they would care about? And if you try to go against them, you'll get crushed like a bug!" -
Well, yes if that's the case these won't work. But also, they'll be ruling all the planes (or else wiped out as too big a threat), so the setting will be very different. I think for a setting other than "Efreet rule the waves planes" we have to assume they truly can't benefit from their own wishes.

I think this reasoning could be applied to the entire subject of efreeti wishes - if the campaign setting isn't ruled by efreeti, wizards making bulk wishes, or something powerful enough to check the other two, why not? It makes more sense to work backward from there and imagine there must be a reason it doesn't work than assume the PCs are the first people in history to come up with the idea.

[Darg]

I think this reasoning could be applied to the entire subject of efreeti wishes - if the campaign setting isn't ruled by efreeti, wizards making bulk wishes, or something powerful enough to check the other two, why not? It makes more sense to work backward from there and imagine there must be a reason it doesn't work than assume the PCs are the first people in history to come up with the idea.

To be fair, genies can't actually grant other genies wishes by the book. The common point of all these wish schemes is that you can compel the creature to grant your wish for free or by giving them back what you stole (their freedom) or what they still have (their life); or you some how gain the 24 hour recharge per day uses of creature abilities when you shapeshift or gain their abilities for yourself when you take on the form for less than 24 hours. It just logically makes sense that if those sources don't specifically permit you to gain full per day usage, then you go from 0 uses to 0 uses because that's how the rules are supposed to work. You gain the ability, but not the per day resource.

These are easily shut down by them being "unreasonable" interpretations of the rules.