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[Tohron]

I came up with an overhaul of the Diplomacy skill meant to turn it into a means of conducting negotiations over an outcome while rewarding both outside research/legwork and higher skill checks, and trying to avoid absurd outcomes. Here is what I put together, with some examples of it in action:


The Diplomacy skill can be used as a full round action to convince a group to negotiate. The base DC is 40 for Hostile, 25 for Unfriendly, 10 for Indifferent, -5 for Friendly, and -20 for Helpful. The DC is increased by 10 if made on individuals currently fighting the party. Note that some individuals may refuse to negotiate on principle regardless of how high the check is. If the person using Diplomacy does not have a credible offer, any individual affected can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the negotiator’s Bluff check to immediately end the negotiations if it succeeds.

Diplomacy can be used to convince an individual or group to accept a deal. The check is modified by how favorable the deal is to the other party, and by external factors (such as the other parties’ attitude to you, cultural attitude, rushed negotiations, etc.) The level and Sense Motive modifier of the other party act as a scalar on the favorability modifier, but not the external factor modifier (so an insightful, high-level NPC is more likely to accept a favorable deal, but less likely to accept an unfavorable one.
The favorability modifiers are listed below. Note that, while the modifiers are determined purely by what the other party gets vs. what they give up, downsides include things like time spent implementing the deal, how other individuals might respond to the agreement being formed, and reputational damage from letting someone else gain a lot more from the deal than the NPC does. Ways that other individuals might respond also include consequences of refusing a deal: if an NPC is threatened with war if they refuse, that makes a deal more “favorable” by making the alternative worse.

Very Favorable (-45): This is an incredible bargain, and anyone would be overjoyed to have such an opportunity. Only an extreme personal animus could motivate someone to reject such a deal.
Favorable(-30): The benefits of this deal substantially outweigh the costs.
Slightly Favorable(-15): The benefits of this deal slightly outweigh the total investment needed.
Neutral(0): Factoring in implementation costs and external consequences, the benefits of this deal are roughly balanced with the downsides. Whether or not it is accepted will come down to other factors.
Slightly Unfavorable(+20): The downsides of this deal slightly outweigh the benefits. A favorable disposition or a persuasive argument will be needed to convince the other party to accept.
Unfavorable(+40): This is a bad deal that will leave the other party in a significantly worse position than they would otherwise be in. Only a very favorable predisposition or incredible persuasion can convince them to accept.
Very Unfavorable(+60): This deal would be regarded as disastrously bad by any impartial observer. It is nigh-impossible to convince any experienced negotiator to accept such a deal.
Unacceptable(No DC): If an offer goes against the other party’s core principles, no amount of persuasion can convince them to accept it. This only applies for absolute principles: if someone can be persuaded that the benefits could be used to counteract the downsides, then negotiation is still an option.

Favorability Multiplier: The DC adjustment for deal favorability is multiplied by (10 + HD + SMMod) / 20 in the final DC calculation, where HD is their total Hit Dice, and SMMod is their total Sense Motive modifier.

Altering Deal Favorability: The favorability modifier used to calculate DC is based on the factors that the NPC is aware of. If there is a factor that the NPC is not aware of that makes the deal better for them, it will not make the Diplomacy check any easier unless it is brought to their attention (and they are convinced it is true). It is also possible to engage in deception before or during the negotiation process to make a deal seem more favorable – of course, if the players are caught doing so, the other parties will react appropriately.

Awareness of Deal Favorablity: The players can be made aware of the favorability of an offer they’re considering based on what they know, or on what they think the NPC knows (if the NPC knows factors that the players don’t know they know, then the actual favorability of an offer might differ from what the PCs think). If the players disagree with your stated favorability rating, they can argue their case.

External Factors: The DC modifiers for external factors are ad-hoc, but one should bear in mind that minor considerations should have modifiers of 5 or less, major considerations should be around 10, and only massive, personality or culture-defining considerations should be over 20.

Final Calculation: The DC for persuading someone to accept a deal is:
10 + [(10 + HD + SMMod)/20] * FavorabilityMult + ExternalFactorsMod

Group Negotiation: Negotiation may be with more than one party. If one individual is the designated negotiator, than the other NPCs are limited to identifying deception or influencing the negotiator-perceived favorability of the deal (if the negotiator cares about their opinion). If multiple individuals must be convinced, then the same Diplomacy check is made for all of them, and is applied against separate DCs for each individual.

Handling Failure: If a Diplomacy check is unsuccessful, the same offer cannot be made again unless circumstances substantially change. If an offer is changed to be at least one step more favorable than the previous offer, the new offer can be made with a new Diplomacy check.

Efficient Implementation In Play: The caveat of more complex rule systems is that they can take longer to implement in play. One way to speed things up is to store the Favorability Multiplier for NPCs for quick reference (since it doesn’t change). The favorability of a deal and the external factors modifier are both based on ad-hoc DM judgements, but can generally be decided quickly for minor negotiations, and for major negotiations, consideration of the involved factors is part of the intended play experience.


Examples:
Offering Future Coppers: Crazy Bill approaches Duke Feningston and offers him 6 copper coins to meet him two hours later. The Duke’s time is valuable, and agreeing with a mentally unstable man would greatly hurt his reputation, so the deal is Unfavorable. As a level 9 Aristocrat with 12 wisdom and 12 Sense Motive ranks (with +6 from feats and items), his Favorability Multiplier is 1.9. He also doesn’t like interacting with crazy people, adding another +12 to the DC. Thus, the total DC is 10 + 1.9 * 40 + 12 = 98. Crazy Bill rolls a 14 and adds 4, which falls far short of the DC.

Buying Mining Rights: The Brandt brothers discover a valuable diamond deposit on the Satrap’s land. Josiah Brandt offers the Satrap 5% of the proceeds in exchange for mining rights. Although the deal costs the Satrap nothing directly, giving them such a favorable deal would be an invitation for others to walk all over him, making the deal Unfavorable. With 12 levels and a Sense Motive modifier of 20, the Satrap has a favorability multiplier of 2.1. His dislike of greedy treasure seekers adds 5 to the DC. Thus, the total DC is 10 + 2.1 * 40 + 5 = 99. Josiah manages 46 on the Diplomacy check, which still falls far short.

Getting a Cookie from Granny: Little Timmy asks his Granny, a retired adventurer, for a cookie. Granny likes giving her grandson cookies, as long as he doesn’t eat too many, so the deal is Slightly Favorable. With 14 levels and a Sense Motive modifier of 5, Granny has a Favorability Multiplier of 1.45. She also likes her grandson, reducing the DC by 4. Thus, the total DC is 10 – 1.45 * 15 – 4 = -16. Timmy automatically succeeds.

Negotiating Trading Rights: The adventuring party has discovered that the local price of cinnamon is about to greatly spike, and negotiate with Lord Brock to take over the cinnamon trade from his family-owned vessels. Finding out that he has a weakness for fine wine, they procure a number of expensive vintages to offer. Since he is unaware of the price tip, they assess that he will find the deal Slightly Unfavorable, something they can get past with good negotiation skills. Unbeknownst to them, Brock’s wife, whom he loves, has been pushing him to ease up on the wine, so he actually finds the deal Unfavorable. Lord Brock’s favorability Multiplier is 2, and there are no significant external factors influencing his attitude, so the DC is 10 + 2 * 40 = 90. The negotiating PC manages a Diplomacy check of 66, which, due to the factor they were unaware of, still falls short.

Attempting Religious Conversion: Exarch Dranth, cleric of the evil god Balthion, offers Keeper Yvonne, cleric of the good goddess Sylmyra, one million gold pieces and a rich barony to convert to Balthion. Since Yvonne’s faith is part of her core goals in life, rather than just being an attitude, the deal offered would still be a major blow to the things she actually wants, and thus rates as Very Unfavorable. She also hates interacting with evil clerics, adding another +20 to the DC. With 16 levels and a Sense Motive modifier of 28, her Favorability Multiplier is 2.7. The total DC is thus 10 + 2.7 * 60 + 20 = 192. Dranth makes a check of 82, which, impressive though it is, still falls far short.

[Eladrinblade]

Only one I cannot place is Zarus.

He's from complete divine I think; a LE human supremacist deity. I am using the name but only a vague inspiration from the rest.

[Mordante]

Dude, this is NOT a lot of changes. My houserule document is 38 pages long and still not finished, Fizban's is over 200 pages long. And the reason to make a lot of changes is that 3.5 has lots of stuff which is badly designed, PF is better but still has plenty.

It can make a big difference if the scores are extreme enough. I played in a game with a Rogue who was unlucky enough to roll really bad stats (I calculated it at about the bottom 1% level) and the DM wouldn't let him reroll, and he sucked. Really struggled to keep up with the rest of the party.

As for the multiple increases, one benefit of giving multiple increases which must be for different stats is that it helps out MAD classes compared to SAD classes; the worst offenders who need 4 or 5 stats high to really shine can find it really difficult to keep them all where they need them to be.

Having bad rolls can be resolved by using 32 points buy. I think 32 points is a good amount. It could be that in all my groups we tend to play rules light. Also a diference could be that in my games, the players even at high level don't expect to be super powerful. My level 18 fighter and my level 18 warlock are virtually unknown outside my party. Just regular "people".

[glass]

He's from complete divine I think; a LE human supremacist deity. I am using the name but only a vague inspiration from the rest.

I did know there was a LE deity called Zarus (I can't remember if it was CDiv either and I cannot seem to find my copy to check), but the alignment and portfolio threw me off. Although TBF its not like the original Abadar is a LG god of mountains either.

[Eladrinblade]

I did know there was a LE deity called Zarus (I can't remember if it was CDiv either and I cannot seem to find my copy to check), but the alignment and portfolio threw me off. Although TBF its not like the original Abadar is a LG god of mountains either.

Yeah, I changed some around a bit, or only used a name and the vague concept. Kord for instance is CN now and more like Tempus from forgotten realms. Cyric is basically marvel Loki. Talos is basically evil Poseidon, etc.

[atemu1234]

At my tables, you get max hit points per hit die for determining your maximum hit points; if you level up in the middle of the dungeon, you add the die roll to your current hit point total (so the *die* still has some uses).

When I played 3.5, we ignored Favored Class as a ruleset. Now that we play Pathfinder, Favored Class bonuses are either specialized by race or the generic bonuses.

I have something called the 'open update policy' - that so long as you are using the most recent printed version of something - be it an ability, a class, a feat, weapon, etc., with Paizo/Dreamscarred Press taking precedent over 3.5 WotC sources. I'm also pretty lenient with third party material.

[Lorddenorstrus]

It can make a big difference if the scores are extreme enough. I played in a game with a Rogue who was unlucky enough to roll really bad stats (I calculated it at about the bottom 1% level) and the DM wouldn't let him reroll, and he sucked. Really struggled to keep up with the rest of the party.

... Kinda odd the DM wouldn't let him RR cause the dude could solve that pretty easily by just being suicidal until he dies and bam new character because that one died. I don't think I'd ever force a player to play a character that's garbage. it's unfun for everyone unless you're a sadistic DM because they can't contribute equally to the other players and usually it makes combat balance wonkier than it already can get.

[Darg]

... Kinda odd the DM wouldn't let him RR cause the dude could solve that pretty easily by just being suicidal until he dies and bam new character because that one died. I don't think I'd ever force a player to play a character that's garbage. it's unfun for everyone unless you're a sadistic DM because they can't contribute equally to the other players and usually it makes combat balance wonkier than it already can get.

It's really hard to be bad honestly. By default you're supposed to reroll when your modifiers add up to 0 or lower or if your highest score is 13. The lowest you can be using the rules in the PHB in your best stat is a +2 unmodified which is only 2 less than the best possible. On top of that, the chances of actually rolling bad AND not having to reroll is pretty low because rolling the average is a reroll. The worst roll you can have is a 14/10/10/10/10/8 with a +1 total modifier. Which tbh isn't that far from a point buy of 18/14/10/9/8/8 which has a total of +4. The most efficient point buy is a 14/14/14/14/9/8 with a +7. Your worst possible roll is +2 behind in two stats from the min/maxed point buy while being +1 ahead in one stat. In the efficient buy it's only +2 behind in 3 stats that aren't the important one while still having a +1 in at least one stat. While I can't actually comment on the commonality of rolling extremely high, I've only ever experienced or seen someone else experience a triple 15+ roll a handful of times where the other 3 scores don't cause a reroll. Most of the time I see rolls that are pretty close to a 25 point buy

[rel]

Building a character with rolled stats requires a slightly different approach than normal, especially if the rolling method isn't particularly reliable;

You have to start by rolling the stats and then build a character that can use the array you got.
If all stats are bad, go with something largely stay independent like warlock.
One usable stat, bump it up with a race pick and go with a SAD class.
A few +1's but nothing better, you might be able to try a MAD build.

You can't really show up with a ready build and hope you roll the right stats.

And dumping con is a better strategy than usual, since you don't really have the points to spare for the insurance con provides, and if you're character dies the next one will probably be better anyway.

[Lorddenorstrus]

It's really hard to be bad honestly. By default you're supposed to reroll when your modifiers add up to 0 or lower or if your highest score is 13. The lowest you can be using the rules in the PHB in your best stat is a +2 unmodified which is only 2 less than the best possible. On top of that, the chances of actually rolling bad AND not having to reroll is pretty low because rolling the average is a reroll. The worst roll you can have is a 14/10/10/10/10/8 with a +1 total modifier. Which tbh isn't that far from a point buy of 18/14/10/9/8/8 which has a total of +4. The most efficient point buy is a 14/14/14/14/9/8 with a +7. Your worst possible roll is +2 behind in two stats from the min/maxed point buy while being +1 ahead in one stat. In the efficient buy it's only +2 behind in 3 stats that aren't the important one while still having a +1 in at least one stat. While I can't actually comment on the commonality of rolling extremely high, I've only ever experienced or seen someone else experience a triple 15+ roll a handful of times where the other 3 scores don't cause a reroll. Most of the time I see rolls that are pretty close to a 25 point buy

The only people I've heard play like that are on the internet, basically here. No other table I've played at does that. Below average characters are boring and the suggested total from the original comment would have to be raw 10s and less to be lower 1% from rolling stats not point buy. Which would be below a commoner in stat spread. As far as I'm concerned the guy with stats below a commoner that tried to adventure died immediately trash the rolled set go again. Get something usable. I let the players at the table I'm running actually have fun. I don't see a character with out stat modifiers as fun to even try to play.

I have people roll 3d6 and reroll 1s for stats. That way they get moderately good stats but usually nothing atrocious since the 1 is removed. I mean really the PCs are hero/villain the LEAD of your game/story. Stats alone don't define power but having them start the game as weak to the point of not even feeling like they're heroes? Nah.

[JNAProductions]

The only people I've heard play like that are on the internet, basically here. No other table I've played at does that. Below average characters are boring and the suggested total from the original comment would have to be raw 10s and less to be lower 1% from rolling stats not point buy. Which would be below a commoner in stat spread. As far as I'm concerned the guy with stats below a commoner that tried to adventure died immediately trash the rolled set go again. Get something usable. I let the players at the table I'm running actually have fun. I don't see a character with out stat modifiers as fun to even try to play.

I have people roll 3d6 and reroll 1s for stats. That way they get moderately good stats but usually nothing atrocious since the 1 is removed. I mean really the PCs are hero/villain the LEAD of your game/story. Stats alone don't define power but having them start the game as weak to the point of not even feeling like they're heroes? Nah.

So, something I do for 5E (which, for the most part, caps ability scores at 20 for PCs) for stat allocation is the following:

Ability Scores: Pick six numbers. These are your pre-racial stats. No number may be higher than 18 or less than 8. You may modify them freely up until the game starts, and may pick duplicate numbers.

It might not work as well in 3rd, where stats are unbounded, but it works well for 5E. Something to consider.

[atemu1234]

If we're talking about point buy, I do Pathfinder 25 point buy for my campaigns. Random rolling makes it harder to plan on what your character is going to be if it's done 'old school' and all of the other variations just seem like unnecessary complication on what point buy offers - if I see one more 'roll 5d6, drop two lowest, but on a thursday, if the moon is full, spin counterclockwise three times and roll 4d6 drop one, but if Mercury is in retrograde-' that just doesn't want to admit they're overcomplicating character creation, I'm going to scream.

[pabelfly]

In terms of creating base stats, I've found what worked for my table was 4d6 drop one, six times, and everyone gets a free 18 to add to that. Pick your six best numbers and place them how you want.

Tried the regular rolling rules, but seeing a lot of difference in stats didn't feel great for those with weak stats, and we had some power gamers want to keep rerolling stats because they didn't have an 18 or good enough rolls, and constantly rerolling wasn't fun.

Tried using point buy, but people didn't like point buy. "Too clinical, not organic, preferred the fun of rolling well in dice rolls" was the general consensus.

Getting the free 18 was what I found worked best for my table. Getting an 18 in a stat felt good, people weren't compelled to keep rolling, and people aren't particularly envious of other stats because even if you still had really ordinary rolls compared to someone else, you still had that 18 for yourself.

[Darg]

In terms of creating base stats, I've found what worked for my table was 4d6 drop one, six times, and everyone gets a free 18 to add to that. Pick your six best numbers and place them how you want.

Tried the regular rolling rules, but seeing a lot of difference in stats didn't feel great for those with weak stats, and we had some power gamers want to keep rerolling stats because they didn't have an 18 or good enough rolls, and constantly rerolling wasn't fun.

Tried using point buy, but people didn't like point buy. "Too clinical, not organic, preferred the fun of rolling well in dice rolls" was the general consensus.

Getting the free 18 was what I found worked best for my table. Getting an 18 in a stat felt good, people weren't compelled to keep rolling, and people aren't particularly envious of other stats because even if you still had really ordinary rolls compared to someone else, you still had that 18 for yourself.

I'm glad I've a good group of people who don't feel the need to game dice rolls. 4d6 drop one is good enough for most games and lower stats gets players to maneuver and use tactics to overcome their weaknesses rather than trying to brute force encounters. The game has many avenues of increasing the odds in your favor that you can "discover" when you live in the 10-14 score range trying to make up for your "deficit". I find players are much less likely to correctly gauge the difficulty of an encounter when they have higher stats because stats can cover up a lot

[vasilidor]

different methods I have used for character creation in games I ran:
A: Everyone gets free 18s.
B: roll 24d6, arrange so that you have attributes between 6 and 18 using all 24 before racial modifiers.
C: roll 2d6+6.
D: roll 4d6, reroll 1s, drop the low.
E: roll 5d6, drop the low 2.
F: 25 pathfinder point buy.
G: all stats start at 15, increase one by lowering another with a max of 18.
H: 32 3.5 point buy.

[pabelfly]

I'm glad I've a good group of people who don't feel the need to game dice rolls. 4d6 drop one is good enough for most games and lower stats gets players to maneuver and use tactics to overcome their weaknesses rather than trying to brute force encounters. The game has many avenues of increasing the odds in your favor that you can "discover" when you live in the 10-14 score range trying to make up for your "deficit". I find players are much less likely to correctly gauge the difficulty of an encounter when they have higher stats because stats can cover up a lot

1) I'm the worst in my group for rerolling dice
2) The ability score array doesn't matter nearly as much as the behaviour of the people at the table, and no-one in my group plays in a way that takes the fun away from other players. I'm quite fine with the way they play.

[rel]

Some of the methods I've used in my own games are:

use an array to assign stats (e.g. 17, 15, 13, 11, 10, 9)

assign from array then add modifiers (e.g. subtract 1 from a stat then add 1 to a stat. do this up to 3 times; subtract 2 from a stat then add 1 to a stat. do this up to 2 times)

Pick one of several arrays and assign stats (e.g. 18, 13, 11, 9, 8, 8 OR 16, 15, 14, 11, 10, 9 OR 15, 14, 14, 14, 13, 12)

multiple arrays based on the tier of your build (e.g. anyone running a tier 1 build would probably get better stats rolling 3D6, anyone brave enough to run a tier 6 build probably doesn't have a single base stat less than 16)

point buy, all sorts of point values,

modified point buy (e.g. taking a stat from 16 to 17 costs 4 points not 3, taking a stat from 17 to 18 costs 6 points not 3)

point buy with different values depending on tier of build (see arrays based on tier above)