A thread of loose ends

[Synesthesy]

Just for fun, a reason to go there: Xykon might have left the crystal containing the only two people who know how to seal a rift in the tower.

Except that we know that this time they'll use a different way to seal the rifts, using 4 colors magic, direct divine intervent and Redcloak. No gates this time.

But I like your idea ;)

[Errorname]

I mean, I can't see this story ending with Thor's plan working, we're way past the unspoken plan guarantee and whatever the planet within the snarl means has to matter somehow, which it doesn't if the Order just beats Xykon and gets Redcloak to help seal the rifts. Seems obvious to me that the last gate is getting blown up in the darkest hour.

[Tzardok]

Unspoken plan guarantee doesn't apply here, because Thor doesn't really have a plan, only a goal. Unspoken plan guarantee is for plans like "We'll do A, followed by step B, which helps us achieve C", while Durkon's job is more "I need to reach C, but we have no idea how to get there, so let's wing it".

[Errorname]

Unspoken plan guarantee doesn't apply here, because Thor doesn't really have a plan, only a goal. Unspoken plan guarantee is for plans like "We'll do A, followed by step B, which helps us achieve C", while Durkon's job is more "I need to reach C, but we have no idea how to get there, so let's wing it".

I guess, but I still think the clarity of the plan from C to E is a problem, and more importantly it's a plan that's not particularly dramatic and which doesn't resolve the mysteries that have been raised about what's going on inside the rifts.

[Tzardok]

There is no C to E in this plan. C already is the endgoal that achieves what the characters are aiming for.

[MartianInvader]

I've added Haley's secret to the list, and that reminded me of another missing one: Minrah's "you do you" secret. I put them as minor and medium, respectively, since neither seems plot-crucial but Minrah's was called out a little more explicitly. I'm open to suggestions for changing categories, though.

I'm going to leave the goblins' species inequality off the list for the same reason I'm leaving off "whether Xykon takes the gate" and "what happens to the Snarl": it feels more like "central plot" than "loose end".

Looks like Xykon's fortress is the most controversial! I think I come down on the "we'll see it again" side - there are still lots of potential plot twists that could make it important, and it just feels too much like a Chekov's gun to me. When it's brought up a second time (by Thor), that feels like a narrative device to make sure we haven't forgotten about it, which the author probably wouldn't do if we were supposed to, you know, forget about it. I definitely don't buy the "there's not enough time" argument - the Gate itself is probably coming up behind Calder and there's still like half a book left. But honestly, none of that is definitive evidence, so I wouldn't be that surprised if it doesn't get used, though it seems like there should at least be a throwaway joke about how we got faked out.

Oops, I forgot to add Trigak again. Well sorry, no time now, I have to go walk the fish.

[KorvinStarmast]

Less than one book.

1301-1189 yields 112. A bit more than half of one book remains. Depending on the size / length Rich decides is needed to wrap up the story, that "a bit" may turn into "quite a bit".

The exact same arguments made for dismissing the idea of a journey to Xykon's Astral Fortress at this time would apply to a proposed trip to Firmament then: no reason to go, nothing they need there, the idea has already served its purpose, it would waste time.

It's also a final end boss fight that actually ends the end boss: Xykon. (Unlike the DCF end boss fight that ended in RC using the phylactery to bring him back).

If The Giant takes us to the Astral Fortress, I expect there will be a good reason to do so. I expect the party to discover something they badly need there, I expect it will be crucial to the development of the story, and I expect to thoroughly enjoy the ride.

I think it will be critical to the wrapping up of the story.

It also may be that we do not go there. That's fine too. But I do not think that Thor accidentally informed Durkon about Xykon's fortress. Just like Durkon's prophecy and Miko's errand set the stage for a homecoming, I think Thor foreshadowed a major plot point that we do not yet understand.

Yes.

Just for fun, a reason to go there: Xykon might have left the crystal containing the only two people who know how to seal a rift in the tower.

And that might help wrap things up...

I suspect we might just get a panel and a joke out of it though.

He falls down forever, which ends up as an odd parody of the myth of Sisyphus.

... but we have no idea how to get there, so let's wing it".

Which is a standard OotS-style plan.

[Peelee]

The exact same arguments made for dismissing the idea of a journey to Xykon's Astral Fortress at this time would apply to a proposed trip to Firmament then

No, they wouldn't. Nobody knew what was or wasn't at Firmament at the time. Everybody does know what is (innumerable lethal traps, safeguards, protections, and alarms) and is not (the phylactery) at the astral fortress. Ergo, unlike with Firmament, we can definitively, absolutely state that there is nothing of any narrative value at the astral fortress, which could not be said of Firmament.

That aside, Firmament had connection to at least one of the heroes, while the astral fortress has none whatsoever. It has connection to a single character, Xykon, who had zero reason to ever go back there, since part of the reason for putting it on an infinite, featureless plane is the unbelievable difficulty to actually find the damned thing (and, coincidentally, we know of at least one other functionally identical place - the graveyard of the worlds - which has the same benefits to not being found by people), and since it's entire purpose is to be some place secret and safe where he can go to regenerate after having his body destroyed.

You can only make the same arguments if you choose to disregard everything we know, but then anyone responding to those arguments is under no such obligation. This is nothing at all similar to Firmament other than they both exist.

[Provengreil]

Regarding the astral fortress discussion, I think a lot of people are skimming over a small but important detail.

It's not just that Xykon thinks his phylactery is there, but also that he thinks that Redcloak doesn't have it. This extra detail sets up Redcloak as having a lot more leverage in the simmering RC Vs Xykon power struggle being set up than Xykon thinks he does.

However, the only factor here that is pertinent to that struggle is the simple fact that the fortress exists. Not only do they not have to visit it, but Xykon won't run back even if RC shows his hand. At least, not without killing everyone in sight and taking it back first.

[Metastachydium]

I mean, I can't see this story ending with Thor's plan working, we're way past the unspoken plan guarantee and whatever the planet within the snarl means has to matter somehow, which it doesn't if the Order just beats Xykon and gets Redcloak to help seal the rifts. Seems obvious to me that the last gate is getting blown up in the darkest hour.

Unspoken plan guarantee doesn't apply here, because Thor doesn't really have a plan, only a goal. Unspoken plan guarantee is for plans like "We'll do A, followed by step B, which helps us achieve C", while Durkon's job is more "I need to reach C, but we have no idea how to get there, so let's wing it".

I guess, but I still think the clarity of the plan from C to E is a problem, and more importantly it's a plan that's not particularly dramatic and which doesn't resolve the mysteries that have been raised about what's going on inside the rifts.

There is no C to E in this plan. C already is the endgoal that achieves what the characters are aiming for.

And then there's the little detail that the comic is known to have, explicitly and with gusto, told us and demonstrated that Unspoken Plan Guarantee is just another device in the toolbox, rather than some kind of rule. Sometimes it applies; often it doesn't and it couldn't be less relevant to the matters at hand.

[Aidan]

Unless I'm forgetting this did we ever get an answer to what Roy asked his archon to do way back when he was getting resurrected?

[Errorname]

There is no C to E in this plan. C already is the endgoal that achieves what the characters are aiming for.

There are actually quite a lot of steps involved with making C happen, none of which would be very dramatic to see.

And then there's the little detail that the comic is known to have, explicitly and with gusto, told us and demonstrated that Unspoken Plan Guarantee is just another device in the toolbox, rather than some kind of rule. Sometimes it applies; often it doesn't and it couldn't be less relevant to the matters at hand.

I would say that the drama of "will V escape from the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing" is marginally less important to maintain than the drama of "how do we resolve the central apocalyptic threat of the story".

[Moyza]

So, OOTS is well into its last book, and I thought it might be fun to take all the loose ends still hanging around and collect them into a single thread (heh).

So this is a thread for every foreshadowing, unresolved plot point, hinted-at secret, and Chekov's gun we can think of. Here's what we've got so far:

Major Loose Ends
(Big plot points, very likely to be resolved)

• Identity of the Monster in the Darkness.
• Belkar's impending death.
• How the gates actually work:
  
  • What's with the planet and the water on the other side of the gates?
  • What's with the thread-tendrils coming out of the gates?
• The IFCC's plans for the gate:
  
  • How they will use their remaining two yoinks on V.
  • How Sabine will be involved.
• The actual location of Kraagor's gate.

Medium Loose Ends
(Might get resolved, might be left open or brought up in a sequel):

• Minrah's secret that Thor mentions.
• The details of the Order of the Scribble falling out.
• Belkar saving Hinjo's life again.
• Elan's secret plan against his father:
  
  • The fate of Haley's father.
  • How Sabine might be involved.

Minor Loose Ends
(Suspiciously hinted at, but don't necessarily need to be resolved)

• What's inside Xykon's Astral fortress and why (narratively) he has it.
• The escaped Vampire in Dwarven lands.
• The prize for winning the bet between Thor and Hel.
• What happened to Laurin in the desert.
• Haley's ultimate secret.

What am I missing? Anyone have some to add?

I am fairly curious about

• how the Empire of Blood will be toppled. It's important enough to be a whole exchange about Ian and Elan.
• the current state of the other gates since it was shown the rifts grow bigger with the time and about the Vector Guild, specially Laurin.
• the plan between Roy and Roy's Arcon.

[Errorname]

the current state of the other gates since it was shown the rifts grow bigger with the time

I have a strong suspicion that things are going to go very badly for Gobbotopia as a direct consequence of Redcloak's refusal to quit while he was ahead.

[brian 333]

No, they wouldn't. Nobody knew what was or wasn't at Firmament at the time. Everybody does know what is (innumerable lethal traps, safeguards, protections, and alarms) and is not (the phylactery) at the astral fortress. Ergo, unlike with Firmament, we can definitively, absolutely state that there is nothing of any narrative value at the astral fortress, which could not be said of Firmament.

The problem with this is, we could compose lists of things we know and don't know all day, and it would be irrelevant. Until the Godsmoot ended in a tie with the tiebreaker being held in Firmament, there was no plot-relevant reason to go there. Your argument does not address the possibility of something occurring that makes it necessary to go there.

Example, Xykon, betrayed, retreats there to make a new phylactery. This time with flapjacks and hooker-bots. And he threatens to create new rifts and kill all humans.

That aside, Firmament had connection to at least one of the heroes, while the astral fortress has none whatsoever. It has connection to a single character, Xykon, who had zero reason to ever go back there, since part of the reason for putting it on an infinite, featureless plane is the unbelievable difficulty to actually find the damned thing (and, coincidentally, we know of at least one other functionally identical place - the graveyard of the worlds - which has the same benefits to not being found by people), and since it's entire purpose is to be some place secret and safe where he can go to regenerate after having his body destroyed.

Zero reason that we know of now. Do you know what new information will come up in the next few pages?

Perhaps you are correct, but unless you are The Author you cannot state that there will never be a reason to go to the fortress.

You can only make the same arguments if you choose to disregard everything we know, but then anyone responding to those arguments is under no such obligation. This is nothing at all similar to Firmament other than they both exist.

This is just incorrect. I am considering everything I know. Unless you have special knowledge of which I am unaware, your opinion is based solely upon your interpretation of the same facts I am considering. I just come to a different conclusion.

Your opinion is that the OotS will not visit the Astral Fortress. Mine is that I think they might, but for bragging rights I'll say they will. Let's see how the comic plays out. One of us is bound to be wrong. Until then, we can argue and never get a consensus

[Peelee]

Look dude, fact is, we had no idea what was in Firmament, other than a prophecy that Durkon would bring death and destruction when he returned, a letter telling him that he was cleared to return, and a other prophecy saying he would return posthumously. Three separate references to him returning.

Xykon's fortress has Thor telling Durkon to act surprised if it comes up. Nothing about going there, and no information about where it even is (again, featureless plain).

Firmament had to be gone to because of the death and destruction prophecy, or it would be something without resolution. Conversely, Xykon's fortress could never be visited without any issue because we have already had resolution. Nothing is actually there.

You keep insisting Firmament is an analog. It is not.

Is it theoretically possible for the Order to go to Xykon's fortress? Sure. But it is not a loose end. That end was tied up as soon as it wss introduced. It is as much a loose end as the Shojo'a fate. It's theoretically possible Shojo does get revived, but if he doesn't, that's fine, because as of right now it's not a loose end. There's no hanging chad with the astral fortress. It's nearly tied up already. If the author chooses to revisit it, he certainly can make that choice, but it would be a new thread. Not an existing one.

[brian 333]

Logical analysis. Let's see what happens.

[Bacon Elemental]

Personally I just think that the Astral Fortress whose purpose is to hide and protect the phylactery (which Redcloak knows is not there and Xykon doesn't) is unlikely to serve any further purpose in the story except when its irrelevance is revealed. It's largely unfindable, and if Xykon thinks his phylactery is there, he's unlikely to want to retreat there.

[Provengreil]

Personally I just think that the Astral Fortress whose purpose is to hide and protect the phylactery (which Redcloak knows is not there and Xykon doesn't) is unlikely to serve any further purpose in the story except when its irrelevance is revealed. It's largely unfindable, and if Xykon thinks his phylactery is there, he's unlikely to want to retreat there.

More than unlikely, he just would never do it. This is one of those moments where Xykon being smarter than he seems is important to remember. If he's actually forced to retreat, that means that someone with the means to kill him could give chase, and he'd be actively leading them to the one spot where they could follow through on it (or so he'd think). Better to die there, regenerate without leaving a trail of evil, and return later.

The only circumstance I can see where the fortress could feasibly come into play is if Redcloak reveals and destroys the phylactery without ensuring that Xykon is either already destroyed, or cannot escape that fate. If that were to happen and Xykon successfully gets out of dodge, he could return long enough to make a new Phylactery...at which point he'd be forced to abandon the fortress because one of the strongest spellcasters alive in the setting has demonstrated the will and ability to destroy that same item, and knows not only where the fortress is but many of its defenses.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally I just think that the Astral Fortress whose purpose is to hide and protect the phylactery (which Redcloak knows is not there and Xykon doesn't) is unlikely to serve any further purpose in the story except when its irrelevance is revealed. It's largely unfindable, and if Xykon thinks his phylactery is there, he's unlikely to want to retreat there.

Unless Xykon hid Redcloak's niece in the Astral Fortress, and had Trigak cloned there.

[brian 333]

Unless Xykon hid Redcloak's niece in the Astral Fortress, and had Trigak cloned there.

Now we have a story!

[KorvinStarmast]

On the other hand, Xykon would have been far more likely to restore Trigak as a zombie chimera, given previous form. Still might be an interesting call back.

[brian 333]

That is an equally plausible scenario. More so if Redcloak's nice has been transformed into a hecuva, given zombie-Trigak as a mount, and commanded to destroy goblin kind and all their works.

[Ruck]

More than unlikely, he just would never do it. This is one of those moments where Xykon being smarter than he seems is important to remember. If he's actually forced to retreat, that means that someone with the means to kill him could give chase, and he'd be actively leading them to the one spot where they could follow through on it (or so he'd think). Better to die there, regenerate without leaving a trail of evil, and return later.

Well, he can teleport. I don't know if he can get to his fortress without Gate or Plane Shift, though, and Redcloak had the former in #833. But he could teleport somewhere else on the Material Plane he considers safe if he's not destroyed, and he couldn't be followed that way. I also don't know if he could pull it off a teleport mid-battle or what kind of concentration / casting time it has, though.

But that said, I generally agree with you. He's not going to flee a battle because that would defeat the point of having his phylactery in his fortress-- precisely so that if he is destroyed, he can regenerate somewhere extremely secure and nearly impossible to find.

[Peelee]

I also don't know if he could pull it off a teleport mid-battle or what kind of concentration / casting time it has, though.

Teleport is a standard action with instantaneous effect. Quick and dirty version, if you can cast a spell, you can successfully cast teleport.

[Xihirli]

Has anyone mentioned

Spoiler: start of darkness

Show

Xykon charming MitD to eat Redcloak and spit out the phylactery if Redcloak betrayed him?

[Provengreil]

Well, he can teleport. I don't know if he can get to his fortress without Gate or Plane Shift, though, and Redcloak had the former in #833. But he could teleport somewhere else on the Material Plane he considers safe if he's not destroyed, and he couldn't be followed that way. I also don't know if he could pull it off a teleport mid-battle or what kind of concentration / casting time it has, though.

I know you agreed with me in your second paragraph, but I just want to follow this thread a bit: we, the audience, know that would work, but does Xykon?

See, he's been refreshing Cloister periodically. He probably hasn't been targetable by scrying since he defeated Dorukan. Redcloak dropping the bomb on him that a 1st level spell can track him was quite a shock, and I doubt he's over it. It's just yet another push factor to die locally, regenerate untrackably, and work from there.

[MartianInvader]

I am fairly curious about
• how the Empire of Blood will be toppled. It's important enough to be a whole exchange about Ian and Elan.
• the current state of the other gates since it was shown the rifts grow bigger with the time and about the Vector Guild, specially Laurin.
• the plan between Roy and Roy's Arcon.

I think the first two are pretty much covered by Elan's secret plan and how the gates actually work, but I've added the plan between Roy and Roy's Archon. I think medium is the right level for that one?

Edit: Oops, forgot to add Redcloak's niece! Well, no time for that now, I have to go get my shirt waxed.

[Precure]

Xykon will escape to his Astral Fortress as a last resort and Roy will follow him there. In there they will have their final fight, 1 vs 1, a rematch of the fight on Azure City.

* What is Haley's secret?
* What will happen to V in future?
* What will happen to V's family?
* What will happen to Belkar?
* What will happen to Belkar's pets?
* What happened to Laurin and Myron?
* How will Tarquin's reign of terror ends?
* What is IFCC actually planning to do?
* What is Eugene actually planning to do?
* What happened between Soon and his team?
* What will happen to Azure City?
* How to resolve the goblinoid discrimination?
* Who will actually rule Greysky City?
* What will happen to Dorukan and Lirian?

[Peelee]

Xykon will escape to his Astral Fortress as a last resort

Why?

Roy will follow him there.

How?