narutooo!!!!!

[WarriorTribble]

Really, I'd file any kind of non-practical magic (things that are obviously "A Wizard Did It" without well-established rules and utility) under the same category. There's a number of stories where Willpower Makes It So, just not as obviously as in Gurren-Lagann (since Gurren-Lagann is just every Super Robot trope dialed up to 11 30): the majority of Disney films work like this on a less mature level, Neon Genesis Evangelion had all kinds of stuff happen just due to peoples' emotions (too bad they were all suicidal), hell, throw in anything that has magic happening Just Because instead of through intentional effort and classification by humans.

I can't simply cause most magic systems have a limit based on human frailties. Gurren Lagann on the other hand made the main character, and potentially any other spiral creature an omega level mutant limited only by his/her imagination/fear. The scales are just too off for me.

Btw, I don't recall emotions altering reality by themselves in Eva, but I didn't see the movies...

I agree GL is shounen like Naruto, just that I'd compare it more closely with Sailor Moon due to their respective plot and conflict resolutions.

[Ozymandias]

I don't actually remember that much about what Naruto I'd seen (I marathon read the complete series which at that point had reached the times-skip, and kept reading sporadically until Sasuke's reappearance before losing interest) except that Kabuto was a badass. Wikipedia says that he's not anymore. Damn, he was easily my favorite character. Hayate may have been competition if he hadn't died to such a loser.

Also, Berserk is apparently seinen. Sweet, I'm almost at that demographic age level. I'll try to fit it in between Faust and Werther.

[Green Bean]

2. The Dai Li weren't even fighting the fire nation. They only wanted their own power. It was like the USSR, it wasn't interested in the cause so much as its own power. Also they don't seem very racist, they just want power for themselves, and they don't have nationalism, that is why the main character don't like them, the don't care about the war, just preserving their own power

Actually, the whole thing makes more sense if you think of the Dai Li as acting more out of fear than lust for power. Think about it; the Earth King's just tossed your leader in jail, and it's probably just a matter of time before the whole organization is disbanded. People would start coming forward to report the sort of things they did to keep the war a secret, and half the organization's probably going to end up in their own dungeons.

The Dai Li rally around their former leader because his risky takeover bid is their best chance of avoiding punishment. Then Azula comes along and tells them that, sure, Long Feng might depose the king, but it would just be a matter of time before the army figures out what's going on, and tries to put the legitimate king back in power; the Dai Li's a police force, not a military organization. They can't expect to stand up against the army alone. So, Azula gives them a way out; the Fire Kingdom army backs up the Dai Li, and they end up in much the same position they were in before the Gaang arrived.

Whew, all this fanwank really tires me out.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Iroh wasn't pushed back if I remember it correctly...he had breached the walls of Ba Sing Se but got word of his son's death and pulled back. There might be more to it than that, but I think that is what happened.

As far as the Dai Li betraying the earth kingdom...supposidly they had become a corrupt version of themselves and only cared about their power, not about protecting the people. They probably wanted some good things for their people, but mainly they were concerned with personal power. They were given a choice...they could stick with their leader while the fire nation had already infiltrated their city and continue fighting against an ongoing seige with no end in sight. This choice would give them the power over the city if they overthrew the king...but they would still be under attack from the fire nation and in bad shape...or be the ones dethroned when the fire nation won.

Their other choice was to follow Azula...join with the fire nation in taking over Ba Sing Se and continue to enjoy their status as the main power in Ba Sing Se and spread their authority as Azula's right hand since she had power all over the conquered territories and the Fire nation. Ba Sing Se, with Dai Li help, would be taken by the fire nation in a quick coup...a nearly bloodless revolution that would see the earth kingdom under the full control of the Fire Nation...no huge battles, no significant loss of life, and under fire nation rule...while occupied...no more siege.

By allying with Azula, they brought a form of peace to the kingdom, cemented their power, and expanded their influence by working with Azula...in their eyes...probably a bit of a win-win.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can't simply cause most magic systems have a limit based on human frailties. Gurren Lagann on the other hand made the main character, and potentially any other spiral creature an omega level mutant limited only by his/her imagination/fear. The scales are just too off for me.

Btw, I don't recall emotions altering reality by themselves in Eva, but I didn't see the movies...

I agree GL is shounen like Naruto, just that I'd compare it more closely with Sailor Moon due to their respective plot and conflict resolutions.

Eh. It's a question of power levels to me (they're always over 9000 on Gurren-Lagann. And yet, it never, ever gets boring. Probably goes back to my "planned self-contained story" vs. "rambling continuation" theory in my earlier posts). They just take the Power of the Human Spirit trope and run with it for miles.

As for Eva...well, pretty much everything cool that happened was a result of a character's disturbed emotional state (especially Shinji's). They had technology (sorta) and in the movie mystic ritual to make it real, but it's the same principle. Perhaps not surprisingly, Evangelion and Gurren-Lagann are two sides of the same coin...but I'm pontificating entirely off-topic now. If someone wants to open a Gurren-Lagann thread, I'll go on for hours.

Finally, alright, as long as we're agreed on what I said in the first place. Still, I feel the show's tone and themes lie closer to the martial-arts-action genre than the magical girl one, regardless of the power of plot devices (of course, really it's neither, as it's the epitome of the super robot genre). But I'll agree to disagree on that.

[WarriorTribble]

But the secret agents were only defending their city to protect their power, not out of real hatred or nationalism. They care only about their own cause, not anybody else's

When people fight wars they die, when that happens you end up hating the group that did the killing, and start sterotyping said group in a negative light. Unless you want to argue the Dai Li aren't human, they should've been pissed at Azula, and done horrific things to her either when they realized she was Fire Nation, or when they no longer needed her. Since this is TV Y7, at the very least they shouldn't have let her control them...

Nope, they just seem to get by in blundering foward relying on the power of friendship and love.

Your kidding me right?

Well considering they spend so much time together, don't you think they'd think of a plan maybe? Or try to guess at their enemies' plans. Or really any sort of tatical mindset.
As for computors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrGKN...eature=related
around 1:33

They do not, they win by overpowering their opponents like all shounen shows. Relying on friendship and love is a shoujo trope. Friendship makes them more determined perhaps, but that's different.

No, I'm not kidding, start talking.

Saying there should be modern tech when the rest of the universe says otherwise is... strange. Better to jot that one off as a minor plot hole, or ninja magic. Kind of like how Water Benders were the weakest nation when their ability to directly affect a opponent's waters (blood/urine/whatever) should make them the deadliest military force in the Avatar universe.

what?

You said it took him a long time to get over his problems, I stated it took him several episodes. What other mental problems did he have that was solved after whatever filler the 80 episodes was?

1. That sort of simplistic tatics is what made him a boring character
2. Naruto wins, well, because he is naurto. Not because he is good or deserves it, he just wins because otherwise their would be no plot.
from
EE

1. Well fair enough. Don't see Avatar characters doing much better (except Sokka), but eh.

2. Since when? In that particular scene he won cause his opponent was an arrogant fatalistic prick (which was established early on), and let his guard down.

[Guts]

[quot]Saying there should be modern tech when the rest of the universe says otherwise is... strange. Better to jot that one off as a minor plot hole, or ninja magic. Kind of like how Water Benders were the weakest nation when their ability to directly affect a person's waters (blood/urine/whatever) should've make them the deadliest military force in the Avatar universe.[quot/]

A recent episode focused on that actually. Only waterbending masters can do it, and only during the full moon when their powers are the strongest. (I hope for Zuko's sake he doesn't piss Katara at a time when her time of of month are the full moon coincide.

[Raistlin1040]

Let me make this clear: I like Naruto. I am a fan of the show, and I enjoy watching it. However, at least 1/episode I have a moment where I just slap my forehead and groan. In fairness though, I will defend it. I also admit that I'm hardly an expert on avatar. I've seen it on a bunch, but I don't claim to be an expert. Here's my impression.

Villains: Orochimaru wins. He's just a badass. I don't care if you love him or hate him. He's basically evil incarnate. Killing his old mentor (Yes it a Star Wars throwback, but it makes for a good measure of evil), effectivly slaughtering hundreds of citizens of the village he runs to get a new body. The Akatsuki (SP?) are also pretty evil. Azula is a teenage girl in a "war-torn" world, where the world's savior is a freaking 8-year old. She's evil compared to the other villains in the show, but doesn't measure up.

Heroes: This is where the gap is pretty small. Naruto is annoying. So is Aang. Sakura is a good enough character, but is useless. Similar to Kitara. Kakashi brings the win to Naruto however, because he is just really cool.

Neutrals: Sasuke and Zuko both have their badass moments, but otherwise aren't super cool. Gaara is pretty cool, and something about him (especially in the beginning) is awesome. He loses a bit of cool for being an emo kid who had no friends, but only a bit. Avatar isn't just that interesting when it comes to Neutrals. The old man is interesting, but that's about it.

Story: Avatar first for a change. It's about a warring world where bending is a powerful skill used by benders. A young man named Aang sets out to save it because it's his destiny. Naruto is about a warring world where jutsu is a powerful skill used by ninja. Neither of them is original.

Winner: Naruto!

Of course, Death Note beats them both. That's a great piece of work, filled with interesting characters, plus the role reversal of the protagonist being a bad guy. Original plot, and it not only makes you think a bit, but isn't filled with the stupid humor of kid shows, but the dark comedy I enjoy.

[averagejoe]

Sakura is a good enough character, but is useless. Similar to Kitara.

What? Kitara has saved the day more than once, and is good both in fights and in non-fight emergencies.

Also, Avatar wins in humor.

[WarriorTribble]

A recent episode focused on that actually. Only waterbending masters can do it, and only during the full moon when their powers are the strongest. (I hope for Zuko's sake he doesn't piss Katara at a time when her time of of month are the full moon coincide.

I interpreted that episode as blood bending can only be done during the full moon. Hama drew water too easily out of things with even less water content than us, for me to believe she couldn't do it with humans. Course there's nothing wrong with refusing to go in that gruesome path.

Just text but somewhat disturbing. You've been warned!

Spoiler

Show

Oh dear gods, now you made me think of Kitara attacking with her... monthly flow.

averagejoe: Ah, I see, it's just been awhile since I've read early Naruto.

[Raistlin1040]

But she's annoying as hell, and only wins when the writers want to make her do something.

Humor...ehh. I'm not sure either way, but an action show shouldn't really be decided by humor.

[averagejoe]

But she's annoying as hell, and only wins when the writers want to make her do something.

Humor...ehh. I'm not sure either way, but an action show shouldn't really be decided by humor.

Not dedicated, no, but it helps when in small doses. However, on that note, avatar has much better action than Naruto as well. Better animation, choreography, and the pacing isn't riddled with flashbacks/still shots that go beyond style and are obviously meant to slow the whole thing down and extend the series as much as possible.

Each avatar character gets some time in the limelight. Also, it isn't just that she wins fights, she accomplishes things, unlike Sakura. I am confused, however, when you say that she only wins when the writers want to make her do something. I mean, winning is doing something, but she does things anyways.

[Guts]

I interpreted that episode as blood bending can only be done during the full moon. The way Hama drew water out of anything even things with less water content than us, makes me think it's cause the show is simply not going to go in that gruesome path.

Well you did say blood/urine/whatever. What exactly did you mean though, the waterbenders manipulating their own fluids or that of their enemy? If its the latter, I presume bending urine and other body fluids would be as hard, maybe more, than blood since they are kept within specific sites of the body while blood is more all over the body. Causing someone's bladder to explode sure would take them out off a fight though. Drawing water from plants is easier because a plant's epidermis is thinner than that of a human and they could draw and condense water vapor from open stomata. There's also the question about how much they know of human anatomy (quite a few ppl where I am still believe a man's reproductive organs are in his back).

If you meant the former, we could see the deadliest golden showers ever. It would sure bring terror into the hearts of their enemy.

[WarriorTribble]

Well you did say blood/urine/whatever. What exactly did you mean though, the waterbenders manipulating their own fluids or that of their enemy? If its the latter, I presume bending urine and other body fluids would be as hard, maybe more, than blood since they are kept within specific sites of the body while blood is more all over the body. Causing someone's bladder to explode sure would take them out off a fight though. Drawing water from plants is easier because a plant's epidermis is thinner than that of a human and they could draw and condense water vapor from open stomata. There's also the question about how much they know of human anatomy (quite a few ppl where I am still believe a man's reproductive organs are in his back).

Bending an opponents fluids. I've seen no evidence that physical barriers can hinder a bender, only distance. Remember how in the Black Sun invasion the water benders were able to bend the water outside the sub to propel it? Also, lets not forget Hama and Kitara also took water from bark and wood, though I guess that shouldn't count due to the full moon.

I don't think you'd really need anatomic knowledge to kill a person. Just bend any fluid you can grab inside them. There's very few intances where that tactic wouldn't be fatal, or at least debilitating. And that's just newbie bending, a Bending Master with complete medical knowledge could probably wipe out an army, mass freezing the cerebrospinal fluid in the skull, or something. I fear what an Avatar level could do... esp since air bending can also directly harm someone.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

There probably is some sort of mystic thing about living creatures with free will (stronger animals, humans) that prevents the manipulation of their internal water. Kitara has proven that sweat can be bent readily, but bending fluid while it is inside a person requires extra power for some reason. Since it can't be bent otherwise, I doubt that the water can be controlled in any fashion while inside a person other than during a full moon.

What I don't understand is this...if they really have control of the water...but can't control water that is part of someone...why not just drown them? Force the water into their lungs? It is so simple a technique by what they are capable of...I don't know why they wouldn't...or freeze a globe of water onto peoples' heads rather than always freezing limbs.

I guess cause it is a kids show they always go for the capture and not the kill. ANy blow that would be a 'kiling' blow is always dodge or avoided, but any capturing or knockback blow always lands...soo wierd...DnD tells us that avoiding using lethal force imposes a penalty...Cartoons tell us that only non-leathal hits ever land...wtf?!?!

One thing that troubles me about Naruto...What can the shadow clone do? Furthermore...what are transformed ninja capable of? The improved sexy jutsu-girl-on-girl style and the Harem-jutsu also make you wonder...when a ninja transforms into another being...they seem to really change..not just an illusion. (the frog gained claws and fangs in fox form and was able to hold onto the sand demon...he also had full use of the tails in a prehensile manner...obviously not just an illusion and fully capable of performing vigorous activity.) The Shadow Clones are also solid and capable of transformation...they can take some punishment, but can also be maintained while also under vigorous activity (like intense training). So how functional are they? And how many ninja have taken the time to...shall we say...explore the possibilities...

Naruto acts like such a dork around women so we can be fairly safe in assuming that he is blisfully ignorant of those particular possibilities...but come on...really...someone has likely tested this out in that world...

[Nerd-o-rama]

There probably is some sort of mystic thing about living creatures with free will (stronger animals, humans) that prevents the manipulation of their internal water. Kitara has proven that sweat can be bent readily, but bending fluid while it is inside a person requires extra power for some reason. Since it can't be bent otherwise, I doubt that the water can be controlled in any fashion while inside a person other than during a full moon.

AT fields!

Wait, I decided this thread wasn't about Evangelion or my insane crossover theories regarding it. But yes, it's reasonable to assume that if you can only bend water within a person's blood under certain conditions, those conditions also apply to other bodily fluids, for whatever reason. It's not hard to say the same applies to why you can't bend the air out of someone's lungs.

Except for the imposition of no one ever landing a killing blow (ever), Avatar's reasonably consistent with its magic and martial arts. Firebending isn't really adequately explained, I guess...I just say "chi" and call it a day.

[WarriorTribble]

Hmm? I thought the AT fields only prevented humans from forming a group consciousness.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Iroh explains it in the episode 'Bitter work' and we discover that he was revealing much more than simple tricks when Aang and Zuko visit the masters in 'The Firebending Masters'.

Firebending draws it's power from the sun...fire is energy and life, not just destruction...the energy flows through them as their life force and can be concentrated into fire. Fire is just an extension of life...that is why fire seems to be a living thing.

A firebender doesn't just create fire, they channel the life energy to produce flame...like everyone has a little sun inside of them. So yes...call it 'chi', but firebending is not the manipulation of the external liek the other bending elements, it is the manipulation of the inner energy of a person into something else. The fire of a bender is the manifestation of their inner power.

Iroh hinted at such during 'Bitter Work' when he was teaching Zuko to redirect lightning...to manipulate the energy within one's body to allow the power to flow through you. Also, during his explination of lightning...how it is about the separation of energies to create a charge and then to release it. It gave the hint that firebending wasn't just the manipulation of existing flame, but that it was the manipulation of energy period. Which explains why a firebender is the only one that is able ot bend without anything...because there is always energy around...if they can't draw from the sun's ample supply, they draw from motion, or from their own 'chi'/inner fire.

[averagejoe]

Hmm? I thought the AT fields only prevented humans from forming a group consciousness.

Spoiler

Show

No, no, no, they obviously prevent people from being tang.

[Alex Kidd]

Spoiler

Show

No, no, no, they obviously prevent people from being tang.

Oh man, I just shot cola out of my nose.

And wait people are arguing whether Naruto beats Avatar? Geez this is like asking whether Die Hard is a better action film than some random Segal flick. Avatar actually has quality and class. Naruto's fine but it's dime a dozen as far as shonen goes.

[Tengu]

Humor...ehh. I'm not sure either way, but an action show shouldn't really be decided by humor.

I completely disagree. Action without any humor would be completely boring and cheesy. Not to mention that Avatar is not an action show.

I guess cause it is a kids show they always go for the capture and not the kill. ANy blow that would be a 'kiling' blow is always dodge or avoided, but any capturing or knockback blow always lands...

That's why the war took 100 years - because they really had to make sure nobody dies on-screen!

Also, two funny things:
1. Many of the "could have been messy" moments come not only on the part of bad guys, but also protagonists - for example, if the tank Aang thrown down in the battle at Northern (I think) Air Temple didn't shoot another grappling hook, those people inside would be dead meat! Same with Katara shooting needle-sharp ice shards at Sparky Sparky Boom Man.
2. It seems that in the bigger battles, off-screen death happens a lot anyway. Like when Sokka's and Katara's dad takes down the soldiers in that turret during the Day of Black Sun - he has no bending, so... not to mention that it's hard to imagine the crew of some of the tanks survived them being crushed, for another example.

And on a completely unrelated note, point me to me another show that makes Eskimos look so cool.

[Mr. Scaly]

Naruto and Sasuke deserve to be shot, but I like everyone else in the show...I'm only about halfway through the 'where's Sasuke?' arc though...

Speaking of Combustion Man, did anyone else find him surprisingly cool? All these firebenders, earthbenders and waterbenders use fancy moves when they attack. Flaming martial arts is insanely cool, but Combustion Man? He just has to look at you to turn you to a fine red mist! One of the more special sub-villains I thought, right up there with Long Feng.

[EvilElitest]

Actually, the whole thing makes more sense if you think of the Dai Li as acting more out of fear than lust for power. Think about it; the Earth King's just tossed your leader in jail, and it's probably just a matter of time before the whole organization is disbanded. People would start coming forward to report the sort of things they did to keep the war a secret, and half the organization's probably going to end up in their own dungeons.

The Dai Li rally around their former leader because his risky takeover bid is their best chance of avoiding punishment. Then Azula comes along and tells them that, sure, Long Feng might depose the king, but it would just be a matter of time before the army figures out what's going on, and tries to put the legitimate king back in power; the Dai Li's a police force, not a military organization. They can't expect to stand up against the army alone. So, Azula gives them a way out; the Fire Kingdom army backs up the Dai Li, and they end up in much the same position they were in before the Gaang arrived.

Whew, all this fanwank really tires me out.

Ok, that is also a very logical and reasonable explanation of the coup, as well as something i can see a power hungry selfish corrupt group of dictators doing to preserve their power.

Except for the imposition of no one ever landing a killing blow (ever), Avatar's reasonably consistent with its magic and martial arts. Firebending isn't really adequately explained, I guess...I just say "chi" and call it a day.

You know Zuko's girlfriend, Mai or whatever, the one with the knives. She hasn't hit a single target in the show i believe

from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

The Dai Li rally around their former leader because his risky takeover bid is their best chance of avoiding punishment. Then Azula comes along and tells them that, sure, Long Feng might depose the king, but it would just be a matter of time before the army figures out what's going on, and tries to put the legitimate king back in power; the Dai Li's a police force, not a military organization. They can't expect to stand up against the army alone. So, Azula gives them a way out; the Fire Kingdom army backs up the Dai Li, and they end up in much the same position they were in before the Gaang arrived.

...I bow to your impeccable rationale. There is the minor issue where I'm dubious the Dai Li would've been unified in that decision, but it's still impressive.

Except for the imposition of no one ever landing a killing blow (ever), Avatar's reasonably consistent with its magic and martial arts. Firebending isn't really adequately explained, I guess...I just say "chi" and call it a day.

You need to first know how to say "kill" before doing it.

[EvilElitest]

...I bow to your impeccable rationale. There is the minor issue where I'm dubious the Dai Li would've been unified in that decision, but it's still impressive. You need to first know how to say "kill" before doing it.

1. I think the Dai Li was well organized from the start, note how they almost all still remain loyal to their leader
2. Yeah, i think Avatar would be better if it was aimed for 13 year olds up
from
EE

[Nerd-o-rama]

A firebender doesn't just create fire, they channel the life energy to produce flame...like everyone has a little sun inside of them. So yes...call it 'chi', but firebending is not the manipulation of the external liek the other bending elements, it is the manipulation of the inner energy of a person into something else. The fire of a bender is the manifestation of their inner power.

Yeah, looking back, Iroh explained it pretty well (and that was a good episode, despite Zuko reaching the very apex of his angst in it). I'm trying to decide whether converting "life energy" into heat is any more silly than using it for limited-medium telekinesis...probably not.

And my AT fields comment was just the idea that a person's will gives them dominion over their physical form, allowing them to resist forcible outside interference. AT fields are an idea on the same theme, but not really the same thing, so it was apropos of nothing I guess.

[waterdolphin777]

I personally like Naruto. True, in the original, Sakura made me want to jump into the computer and punch her in the face and the fillers sucked, but Shippuuden is much, much better. Right now though, I think that Kishimoto is running out of ideas or something because the manga is getting kinda boring. That's ok though, because I have a lot of other animes and mangas that I'm following. If the end is as sucky as the FMA anime end though....

[EvilElitest]

I personally like Naruto. True, in the original, Sakura made me want to jump into the computer and punch her in the face and the fillers sucked, but Shippuuden is much, much better. Right now though, I think that Kishimoto is running out of ideas or something because the manga is getting kinda boring. That's ok though, because I have a lot of other animes and mangas that I'm following. If the end is as sucky as the FMA anime end though....

Full metal alchemist, even at its worst is simple superior to Naurto. It is a totally different breed.
from
EE

[Illiterate Scribe]

I have only come into Naruto via this. I have nothing further to contribute to this debate.

It's still funny though.

Spoiler

Show

[Mr. Scaly]

I have only come into Naruto via this. I have nothing further to contribute to this debate.

It's still funny though.

Spoiler

Show

Allow me to be the first to laugh my tail off at that. XD

Really, if we can set aside the two stupid protagonists it's pretty good, I'd say. The ninja-ing is a little theatrical for real ninjas, but the main villain is a complete psychopath. Orochimaru is cool because he cares for nothing. All he wants is power and to entertain himself. I almost pity him at times because he's got nothing when all is said and done.