Arena Tournament, Round 14: Bobthefighter vs Bloatsack The Vile

[kme]

Bob: round 24

for refs:

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move action:move from I10 to I4 (i4 not 14 )
standard action: ready an action to cast fell drain sonic snap on Bloatsack as soon as I see him, if he is within 25 ft.

stats:

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position: I4
HP: 7/7 normal
AC: 12 (2 dex )
Saves: F +3; R+2; W+4
Misc:scroll of silent image in one hand
Buffs:
invisibility: lasts until beginning of round 31
see invisibility: lasts 30 minutes
expeditious retreat: lasts until beginning of round 14

end of turn

[Paladin Latham]

Bloatsack the Vile rounds 25-35:

Well, with that done, I spend the next 10 rounds doing stuff and waiting. I'm pretty spooky.

For Refs:

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I spend the next few rounds trying to reach Q5. If I reach it I will just wait there under the surface until round 35 in order to outlast his invisibility.

Climb (1d20+11)[15] vs. dc15
Climb (1d20+11)[28]
Climb (1d20+11)[17]
Climb (1d20+11)[24]
Climb (1d20+11)[26]
Climb (1d20+11)[29]
Climb (1d20+11)[25]
Climb (1d20+11)[13]
Climb (1d20+11)[27]
Climb (1d20+11)[24]
Climb (1d20+11)[30]
Climb (1d20+11)[20]
Climb (1d20+11)[14]
Climb (1d20+11)[15]
Climb (1d20+11)[27]
Climb (1d20+11)[14]
Climb (1d20+11)[26]
Climb (1d20+11)[23]
Climb (1d20+11)[25]
Climb (1d20+11)[27]

Hopefully I can travel 10ft. in the next 10 rounds.

Edit: I totally do!

Stats:

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Vital Statistics:
HP: 10
AC: 17, Touch: 15, FF: 12
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +0
Current Location: Q5 (under the sand on the wall)
Current Buffs: holding breath 11/20

[kme]

question for refs:

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Can he shoot while he is in quicksand? If he can, is it with penalty ? I assume that he can move under the surface with DC15 swim check, but is this check a move or full round action? How can he even get out, how many actions would it take?

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius

Hold on just a minute...

to other refs

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Hum... there is some odd things here.

Bloatsack needs both climb checks to succed to move 5 feet right? If that hapenned only 8 times during his 8-23 rounds, and I am assuming he can only climb the edge of the quicksand pit and since there are 11 squares between J11 and O5 how can he end his move there?

Second what is the DC for Bobthefighter to detect his movement? I remember another refs saying it should be a DC 20 for listen or spot (or maybe both) if it was that then Bobthefighter should have been able to follow bloatsack (at least fort a while) and maybe his ready acton should have happened.

Or I am wrong again?

[Maurkov]

Ref Maurkov

@refs, kme

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I'm a little late coming to this party, but in rounds 1 and 2, did Bob read a scroll of invisibility and then read a scroll of see invisibility? Isn't it hard to read an invisible scroll?

[Dragonstar]

Ref Dragonstar:

@refs:

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I'm just going to make things worse. If he's under the quicksand, he can't see. Don't we need to have him operating as blind?

SRD: The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Also SRD: Effects of Quicksand

Characters in quicksand must make a DC 10 Swim check every round to simply tread water in place, or a DC 15 Swim check to move 5 feet in whatever direction is desired. If a trapped character fails this check by 5 or more, he sinks below the surface and begins to drown whenever he can no longer hold his breath (see the Swim skill description).

Characters below the surface of a bog may swim back to the surface with a successful Swim check (DC 15, +1 per consecutive round of being under the surface).

I can understand allowing to climb when he has the rope, but attempting to climb the surface itself... with the applied -4 to climb from being blinded he's failed by more than 5 at least once and should have "fallen". At least at that point, it should have switched to a swim check, which is at the same -4 penalty, plus double armor check penalty.

It's a complete mess.

[kme]

for refs:

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[

Ref Maurkov
@refs, kme:
I'm a little late coming to this party, but in rounds 1 and 2, did Bob read a scroll of invisibility and then read a scroll of see invisibility? Isn't it hard to read an invisible scroll?

Yes, you are right. The fact that my equipment also becomes invisible never occurred to me.
What about other items? Material components (could you use them/choose correctly), potions would become invisible too. Heck even walking would be harder.
Maybe for some mysterious and magical reason I am not invisible to myself. I can only hope

Anyway, what now. I have been planning to use other scrolls too, but eh.

[Maurkov]

Ref Maurkov

@kme, refs

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Yes, you are right. The fact that my equipment also becomes invisible never occurred to me. What about other items? Material components (could you use them/choose correctly), potions would become invisible too. Heck even walking would be harder. Maybe for some mysterious and magical reason I am not invisible to myself. I can only hope

Anyway, what now. I have been planning to use other scrolls too, but eh.

I don't think you received undue advantage from it, but let me check with the other refs. As for using more, you'll need to figure that out.

@refs

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Normally we'd give Paladin Latham a chance to roll back to the illegal action, but I don't think he should be allowed to un-dive into quicksand. His action wasn't contingent on knowing Bob's see invisibility was active. Opinions?

[Paladin Latham]

*whistles*

So. Whats up?

[kme]

I believe we have to wait for opinions of other refs.

[Bigmac]

@ refs, kme

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It has been ruled before (can't find the match at the moment) that you can't use scrolls while invisiable. The invisible description clearly states that you can't see the scroll. To use it, you'll have to drop it (so that it becomes visable) and then pick it up or read it off the ground or something. See Elethomiel vs Taleron for an example of how it was used.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

To other Refs:

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If I understand what's going on right, Bloatsack missed a Climb check a while ago and so would have needed to make Swim checks, but this wasn't caught at the time.
Meanwhile, Bobthefighter read a spell from an invisible scroll, which he shouldn't have been able to do, but this wasn't caught at the time.
When did these happen? Did anything else go wrong?

[Morbius]

GM Kyeudo

To other Refs:

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If I understand what's going on right, Bloatsack missed a Climb check a while ago and so would have needed to make Swim checks, but this wasn't caught at the time.
Meanwhile, Bobthefighter read a spell from an invisible scroll, which he shouldn't have been able to do, but this wasn't caught at the time.
When did these happen? Did anything else go wrong?

Ref Morbius

to other refs

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I also have a doubt, what is the DC for Bobthefighter to notice Bloatsack moving underwater?

[Maurkov]

@refs

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@ refs, kme

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It has been ruled before (can't find the match at the moment) that you can't use scrolls while invisiable. The invisible description clearly states that you can't see the scroll. To use it, you'll have to drop it (so that it becomes visable) and then pick it up or read it off the ground or something. See Elethomiel vs Taleron for an example of how it was used.

I don't like the idea of giving play advice to a gladiator. It's not fair to the opponent. kme was perfectly able to figure out the tactic by reading the SRD or by researching other matches, and if he didn't, Paladin Latham should have an advantage thereby.

[Bigmac]

@maurkov

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I was refering to the match not so much for the tactic, but rather to show that there was precedent for scrolls being invisiable and how the mechanics were handled. I do try not to give advice / strategy to gladiators.

[kme]

for refs:

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@ refs, kme
It has been ruled before (can't find the match at the moment) that you can't use scrolls while invisiable. The invisible description clearly states that you can't see the scroll. To use it, you'll have to drop it (so that it becomes visable) and then pick it up or read it off the ground or something. See Elethomiel vs Taleron for an example of how it was used.

ok from now on I will use scrolls in that manner.

What about questions that I asked after my last round?

[Paladin Latham]

I swear... If you guys are just talking about cheeseburgers to make me nervous...

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

to other refs

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The DC to see someone moving under quicksand? Unless he's right under the surface, I'd say it was impossible. On the surface, I'd give him a decent circumstance bonus to his Hide check.

Where these breaks with the rules made towards the start of the match, or where they a more recent occurance. I'd rather not analyze every post in this match.

[chilepepper]

ref chilepepper
@refs

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Not that my opinion matters, being an initiate ref, but I agree about the seeing into quicksand. It'd be impossible since quicksand is more sand than water. If the character were right at the surface, I'd count it the same as being invisible. But under the quicksand; even if the character were moving under the surface, I'd say because of the high viscosity of the quicksand, it wouldn't make waves and the spot DC would be epic. Just my 2cp.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Alright, I'm tired of trying to get straight answers from the other refs.

According to the other refs, Bobthefighter read a spell from an invisible scroll, an act established as impossible in a previous match.

Also according to the other refs, Bloatsack the Vile failed a climb check somewhere and so would have needed to make a Swim check to keep from sinking.

However, no one will tell me where in this match these happened, and I haven't been able to find where they happened myself. The other refs won't tell me where they happened, dispite my asking.

So, I'm going to ask you players what you want to happen. Rematch? Rewind back to when the earliest mistake occured (provided that we can determine when that was)? Ignore the problems?

[Paladin Latham]

To be honest, if Bloatsack failed a climb check he's doomed. I will accept a watery defeat. If he couldn't see invisibility then I would just have ran around until he finally got me. There. Round 14 over with, argument ended. I'll take my silver medal please.

[kme]

I don't know about climb check, but I would be fine with a rematch or rewind if Paladin Latham wishes it. Or maybe we can share the prize .

[Bronz]

I'm sorry I just haven't gotten back here. The scroll was read way back in round 2 I think, and Bloatsack is being deemed to miss a climbcheck the second round he was in the quicksand because of the blindness effect the quicksand gives out. He rolled a 14, missed by 5 (DC15) so then falls.

[Paladin Latham]

Thus my above post. I lost fair and square taking a gamble, no different than if he actually sonic snapped me or heat deathed me or whatever.

[Bronz]

Thus my above post. I lost fair and square taking a gamble, no different than if he actually sonic snapped me or heat deathed me or whatever.

High Ref Bronz

Then Bobthefighter is declared the winner of Round 14 and gets all prizes owed.
Bloatsack receives 300gp for second place.

[kme]

OK. So only one question is left to be answered. When do we get medals .

[Paladin Latham]

Whenever The_Chili_God returns. He just sort of pops in at random. He's very mysterious.