[Magic System Replacement] The Paradigm Project (VERY much in progress)

[Lord_Gareth]

Hey, hey, so far, only Martyrs and Black Powder Masters are female.

I'm gonna work on the Subparadigm Abilities today, probably during French.

[Primal Fury]

huh. seems like you really have something here. though i do prefer White Wolf's "Werewolf: The Forsaken" over "Mage: The Awakening" i like these classes (especially the Technomancer) and the rules alot.

good on ya!

[Lord_Gareth]

^_^ I'm working on the Ethernauts now and then on blueprints

[Uncle Festy]

"Ka-BUMP!"

[Lord_Gareth]

Sorry about that, I hit a wall with Ethernauts. I'm gonna try something now and see how it works ^_^.

[Lord_Gareth]

Done ^_^ Finishing class features, then outlining some of the skills, then doing up the actual blueprints.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hey Gareth. Remember me? [Hint: Artificer] I've been absent on the WotC boards lately (just somehow feel strange and alien now, and I can't really get back into the swing of things), but now I'm up and kicking over here.

I took a look at this, and some of it (most, actually) is pretty awesome. However, there are a few problems I see...the main one being the immense casting times for rituals. They're also entirely useless within combat, and require some re-working to be even considered an option. At level 20, assuming that I halve the casting cost TWICE, it's still taking me 5 rounds. Combat may be OVER in 5 rounds, and I'm just casting the equivalent of Slay Living.

I'll see what I can think up to solve that problem, and see if I have any other ideas while I'm at it.

Oh...as a side note, how have you been lately?


EDIT: Alright. Did a little looking at the rituals, and I think we can possibly solve the issue by having a ritual "power-up." You can choose to stop the casting at any time for a lesser effect, or you can continue the ritual for a more powerful bang. The casting times on this have been completely changed, but I whipped up an example just to see what you thought. (Edit 2: Someone already mentioned this. Several times. Guess I should read more than just your posts...)

Note: An Extension is an optional additional round added to the casting time. The spell effect begins as soon as the first casting round is over (i.e. the end of the turn) and the effects continue to stack as the spell progresses. Eventually a critical limit is reached where no more Extensions can be applied, at which point you must stop casting the ritual, and any further duration takes effect unless something says otherwise. Additionally, at any point in time after the initial casting time has been expended you may choose to cease casting the ritual and simply have it finish it's duration as usual.

Awaken the Earthen Dragon
Destruction, Major
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Area: 50ft radius
Range: Sight
Effect: When you perform this ritual the earth rises up in protest of your magicks, shaking violently in an effort to disrupt you. All creatures within a 50ft radius of the ritual must make a Reflex save (DC 18 + Your Charisma modifier) each round or fall prone.
Extension I: The tremors increase at an alarming rate, spreading and making passage difficult. The radius increases to 75ft, and all terrain in the area is treated as being difficult terrain.
Extension II: Shards of rock begin to fly lethally through the air, dealing 3d6 points of damage a round to everything within the area of effect.
Extension III: Great rifts of earth open, and opponents must make a Reflex save (DC 18 + Your Charisma modifier) each round or fall into one. At the end of the ritual’s duration, all foes trapped within the earth are slain instantly as the ground swallows them up. A Climb check (DC 20) is necessary to climb up from a chasm.
Extension IV: The earth erupts in a cataclysmic burst of stone and dirt. Everything within the radius of the effect takes 25d6 points of damage and must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 18 + Your Charisma Modifier) or be pinned under rubble, requiring a Strength check DC 20 or three rounds of digging to break free. This cuts the ritual short, ending all effects instantly.
Duration: Casting+5 rounds
Saving Throw: Ref Partial (See text)
Spell Resistance: No

For a single round of focusing, it's a wide range battlefield control spell useful against opponents who don't have good Reflex saves. After 2 rounds it's a doubly effective measure, allowing ranged attacks to snipe them with ease.

After three rounds it begins to get offensive, as opponents take damage each round. It's not a lot of damage, but it'll continue for at least 5 more rounds.

After four rounds you have the potential for a kill effect in there, although there are two ways to avoid it.

The fifth round can guarantees a kill by cutting the ritual short and trapping a foe. It also deals an impressive amount of damage and traps opponents who might still be on their feet.

In short, it starts out as something you might spend a round to do: impede a large number of opponents, but, as you invest more time into it, it returns the favor by becoming more and more powerful.

What do you think?

[Uncle Festy]

I dunno about you, Gareth, but me likey very much.

To continue the Djinn's idea, here's an idea. Probably needs some work, though.

Gate of Fire
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: 2 rounds
Area: 30 ft line
Effect: The ritual opens a small gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, letting fire burst through in a 30 ft line. Anyone in that line takes 1d6 fire damage per round the gate has been open at the beginning of your turn (Ref save half). You may move the gate up to 30 ft and turn it in any direction as a move action.
Extension I: The energies of the Elemental Plane of Fire begin leaking through. At the beginning of each of your turns, anyone within a 45 ft radius of the gate must make a Fort save or be exhausted for one round by the waves of heat that emit from the gate.
Extension II: The gate widens. It now affects a 40 ft line 10 ft wide, and deals 1d8 fire damage/round the gate has been open.
Extension III: The energy leaking from the Elemental Plane of Fire gets worse. The radius of the exhaustion effect increases to 60 ft, and deals 2d6 fire damage on a failed save.
Extension IV: Elementals begin coming through from the gate. At the beginning of each round, a fire elemental (no clue what size) comes through the gate. You have no control over it, but it will not attack you.
Extension V: The gate begins radiating in all directions. It no longer deals fire damage in a line. Instead, it deals that fire damage within the 60 ft radius instead of the standard 2d6 fire damage within that radius. The fire elementals coming through are now (increased size/age).

Wow. I probably misformatted that some 20-odd times. Correct me, please.

[Lord_Gareth]

@Djinn - GID! YO! *Tackleglomphugglehandshakesyravs.cabenduurgideonv s.kyle*

I've been fine - grounded on and off, picked up a girlfriend (Walmart sells now, can you believe it?) and making homebrews as fast as I possibly can. You might find my Gani somewhere on these pages - they can't have gone far.

As to your idea - I love the idea. But it would also necessitate changing the entire text of ritualcasting and ritualcrafting, as well as the rules of rituals, and I really don't have the strength of will to do that at the moment. Would you mind spelling out all the technical stuff? I mean, I know it's asking a h oly hell of a lot, but it would mean a LOT to me.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And the same to you, my friend. The same to you.

As to the technical stuff, I'd be happy to. Can't promise a delivery date, but I'll work on whipping up some stuff and converting what you have up when I've got a minute or two.

Also, Walmart's selling? I may have to check this out...

[munchlord]

*is sad that there are several hundred miles to the nearest Walmart*

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright folks, it's long, it's scary, it's gonna be edited into the Technomancer post later, it's the rules on technology!

Technological Devices
"It's simple, really. Just connect the chrono-enhancement circut to the positron accelerator, sit back, and watch it make your coffee."
- Valaria Anstron-Laythe, Madgirl

Technological devices are crafted using the Craft (Technological Device) skill, and range from the simple crossbow to steam-powered walkers toting death-rays and everything in between. Technological Devices have a few values attached to them -

Technology Level is an indiction of how complex the item in question is. A pencil sharpener would be level 1, and a hand crossbow level 2, whereas a portal generator might be technology level 7, or a repeating black powder rifle might be technology level 5. Devices with technology levels of 9 or 10 are referred to as doomsday devices - everything else is either an invention or a contraption, usually, though particularly poor devices are sometimes called cobbles.

Malfunction Rating is an indiction of how unstable the device is. Every time the device is used, you roll a D20 - if the roll is equal to or below the Malfunction Rating, the item does something wrong. It might simply not work. Or, it could explode in your face. It really depends.

DC is the difficulty class to craft the item, which is equal to (10 + Technology Level + Miscellaneous increases (see Craft (Technological Device))).

Cost is the cost needed to craft the item. Selling it is an entirely different matter entirely, seeing as they are technically magical items...but aren't.

Technological devices, can, in theory, be used by anyone. However, they are still magical items, though they try hard not to be, and are bound by certain laws of magic. A non-Technomancer who attempts to use a technological device must deal with a Malfunction Rating increase of 10, with the result always being Catastrophic Failure. This does not apply to items with a Technology Rating of 3 or lower, which are relatively simple and may be operated by anyone. Technological devices read on detect magic and similar spells, but they seem fuzzy somehow, indistinct, as though in some kind of flux.

Craft (Technological Device)

This is a special skill that only Technomancers may take ranks in - other classes cannot learn it, no matter how hard they try. Their inventions fail to function, and often explode catastrophically. The key ability for Craft (Technological Device) is Intelligence.

-More to come later-

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Looks good, Gareth. I'm interested to see more...

This could finally be a class that suits Gideon...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Revision of Awakening the Earthen Dragon and a new ritual, Binding the East Wind. Two examples of power levels, the first available at 15th level, the second available at 1st level.

Some basic explanations:

Casting Time: The number of rounds it takes to perform the ritual at it's most basic level.
Extension: An extension is an optional additional round added to the casting time. The spell effect begins as soon as the first casting round is over (i.e. the end of the turn) and the effects continue to stack as the spell progresses. Eventually a critical limit is reached where no more extensions can be applied, at which point you must stop casting the ritual, and any further duration takes effect unless something says otherwise. Additionally, at any point in time after the initial casting time has been expended you may choose to cease casting the ritual and simply have it finish it's duration as usual.
Duration: The number of rounds the Ritual is in effect for. A duration of Casting means that the Ritual's effects start as soon as the initial casting time is complete. A Ritual without Casting in the duration does not have any effect until the complete casting (including any extensions added) is complete.
Saves: The save DC for a Ritual is (10 + 1/2 your Incanter level + the relevant ability modifier).
Spell Resistance: Most Rituals do not directly affect creatures, so most do not allow spell resistance. There are a few exceptions to this rule, however.

Awakening the Earthen Dragon
Destruction, Major
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Area: 20ft radius
Range: Sight
Effect: When you perform this ritual the earth rises up in protest of your magicks, shaking violently in an effort to disrupt you. All creatures within a 20ft radius of the ritual must make a Reflex save each round or fall prone. Additionally, all terrain in the area is treated as being difficult terrain.
Extension I: Shards of rock begin to fly lethally through the air, dealing 6d6 points of damage a round to everything within the area of effect.
Extension II: Dust begins to fly through the air, covering the whole area in total concealment.
Extension III: Great rifts of earth open, and opponents must make a Reflex save each round (DC 18 + Your Charisma modifier) or fall into one. At the end of the ritual’s duration, all foes trapped within the earth are slain instantly as the ground swallows them up. A Climb check (DC 20) is necessary to climb up from a chasm.
Extension IV: The earth erupts in a cataclysmic burst of stone and dirt. Everything within the radius of the effect takes 25d6 points of damage and must succeed on a Reflex save or be pinned under rubble, requiring a Strength check DC 20 or three rounds of digging to break free. This cuts the ritual short, ending all effects instantly.
Duration: Casting+5 rounds
Saving Throw: Ref Partial (See text)
Spell Resistance: No


Binding the East Wind
Protection, Minor
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Area: 10ft radius
Range: 10ft radius centered on the Ritualist
Effect: When you perform this ritual the very winds swirl about you, creating an impenetrable barrier. All creatures within the area of effect gain a +5 bonus to Armor Class against projectile attacks coming from outside the area of effect.
Extension I: The winds pick up pace, deflecting projectiles of all shapes and sizes. All projectile attacks of under siege weapon size targeting something within the area of effect suffer a 50% miss chance. Any creature attempting to enter the area of effect must make a Fortitude save or be thrown backwards 1d4x5ft and knocked prone.
Extension II: The winds continue to grow, lifting up rubble and creating a nightmarish vortex. Any creature within a 20ft radius of the caster but not also within a 10ft radius takes 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage a round from the high speed winds.
Extension III: The winds reach a truly impossible speed, and your control of them becomes supernatural. All ranged attacks initiating outside the 10ft area of effect that would target a creature or object within the 10ft area of effect instead rebound on the attacker. This includes all ranged touch spells. The Ritualist makes an attack roll with an attack bonus equal to his Ritualist level + his Charisma modifier to see if the rebound strikes the target. A failed attack roll means that the spell goes wild, missing everything.
Extension IV: The wind shield explodes outward, sending gale force winds in every direction. Everything inside a 30ft radius area of effect but outside the 10ft area of effect must make a Fortitude save or be thrown violently 2d6x5ft and fall prone. Creatures thrown in this manner take 1d6 damage per 10ft traveled. This cuts the ritual short, ending all effects instantly.
Duration: Casting+2 rounds/level
Saving Throw: Fort Partial (See text)
Spell Resistance: No

[Kai-Palin]

I'm liking the progressive rituals a lot. They seem balanced (to my inexpert eyes, that is).

Lord Gareth, you've misplaced the save bonuses for technomancers at 6th level.

As far as anyone knows, is there a way (in character) to determine how long someone else's spell will last, assuming the character doesn't know what level the other person is?

I was thinking as an ability that all Hermetics could create, perhaps a candle or consumable object that the character assigns to a certain detected magical effect, and the candle burns at a rate equal to the spell's duration. Does this sound good? Bad? Completely useless? And what should be the cost to create one?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Some new Rituals up, spoilered to save space.

Additionally, some new casting rules.

Primary Incanting Attribute: The primary casting attribute of ritualists changes depending on the type of Ritualist. martyrs and Daemon Magi both use Charisma as their primary Incanting Attribute, while Timebenders use Wisdom as their primary Incanting Attribute. This attribute determines the DC of Rituals.

Payment: Under most normal circumstances, there is no sacrifice required to perform a Ritual. However, occasionally it is necessary to perform a more potent ritual than time would otherwise allow. This is where payment comes in. Payment is offered in the form of ability score penalties, and immediately advances casting of a ritual up to the last extension. The cost, however, is 1 point of ability damage per desired extension. This ability damage cannot be negated in any way, or the ritual fails to go off. Additionally, payment is tiring. Using payment fatigues the Ritualist for the rest of the encounter. The second use of Payment exhausts the Ritualist, and a third use of Payment knocks the Ritualist unconscious as soon as the Ritual has been performed.

Martyrs pay points of Constitution as their body pays the price of their sacrifices.
Daemon Magi pay points of Charisma as they offer their soul to abyssal powers.
Timebenders pay points of Wisdom as their minds frantically strive to understand their twisting of time itself.

It should be noted that Timebenders and Daemon Magi pay Payments using their primary Incanting attribute. This is indeed the case, and is intentional. The payment kicks in immediately upon the completion of the Ritual, meaning that the save DC for the ritual is set at the initial value of the Incanting attribute, but all further Rituals will use the new, lower attribute.

Example: Tyler Vici, a level 15 Daemon Magus, is facing a truly terrible foe. Tyler wishes to perform the ritual Extinguish the Immortal Soul and destroy his opponent completely, but he lacks the six rounds it would require to do so.

Certain that it is his only hope, Tyler takes 4 points of Charisma damage (reducing his Charisma from 21 to 17) and immediately advances the Ritual to Extension IV. Instead of taking 6 rounds to perform up to Extension IV, it now only requires two, the base cost of the Ritual. The save DC uses the initial Charisma value, and as such is 22 (10 + 1/2 Tyler's Ritualist level + Tyler's Charisma modifier). The DC for all future Rituals will be 20 (10 +1/2 Tyler's Ritualist level + Tyler's new Charisma modifier). Tyler's opponent is now in a world of trouble, but Tyler has fatigued himself and reduced his Ritual's effectiveness for future rituals. If his opponent survives Extinquish the Immortal Soul, Mr. Vici is in a difficult spot.


The Rituals

Spoiler

Show

Calling the Dancing Flames
Destruction/Elementalism, Minor
Casting Time: 1 rounds
Extension: +1 rounds
Target: 1 creature
Range: Medium
Effect: Performing this ritual summons up fire from the bowels of the earth, scorching your foe with sheets of flame. Your target takes 1d4 points of fire damage/level (Ref negates).
Extension I-IV: Each additional extension raises the die type by one (d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12) and adds an additional target within range.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes


Conducting the Symphony of Destruction
Destruction, Adept
Casting Time: 1 rounds
Extension: +1 round
Area: 20ft radius, centered on the Incanter
Effect: When you perform this ritual a cacophonous eruption of hideous, crackling sound dances around you. All creatures within 20ft must make a Fortitude save or be shaken for the duration of the ritual. A successful save negates the feat effect. This is a sonic, mind-affecting fear effect.
Extension I: The sound rises to a high pitched, grating wail. All creatures within 20ft take 3d6 points of Sonic damage a round. Listen checks within the area suffer a -10 penalty.
Extension II: The screaming music drowns out all speech, and causes spellcasters to stare in horror as their very words are corrupted on their tongues. All spells with verbal components suffer a 50% failure chance if the caster is within the area of effect of this Ritual.
Extension III: The noise increases to impossible levels, ripping into the minds of those listening. All creatures within 20ft must make a Will save or fall to the ground, unable to take any actions until the end of the Ritual’s duration.
Extension IV: The noise crescendos in a devastating blast of pure sonic energy. All creatures within 20ft take 1d6 points of Sonic damage/Incanter level and must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently deafened.
Duration: Casting + 3 rounds
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: No


Constricting the Iron Bands
Destruction, Adept
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Target: One creature
Range: Close
Effect: When you perform this ritual your target is engulfed in rings of iron. He or she must make a Reflex save or be unable to take a move action for the duration of the ritual. A successful Reflex save negates all further effects of the ritual.
Extension I: The rings begin to constrict, dealing 1d4 damage per Incanter level.
Extension II: The rings begin to inhibit your opponents actions. Each round your target must make a Fortitude save or be unable to take any actions for that round.
Extension III: The rings constrict further, dealing 1d4 damage per Incanter level.
Extension IV: The rings close completely, rendering your target completely immobile for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. This cuts the ritual short, ending all effects instantly.
Duration: Casting + 1 round/Incanter level
Saving Throw: Reflex negates, Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: No


Crush the Physical Form
Destruction, Minor
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Area: One creature
Range: Close
Effect: When you perform this ritual the target is wracked by intense pain. He or she takes a -2 penalty to all rolls for the duration of the ritual. Each round he may make a Fortitude save to ignore this penalty for one round.
Extension I: Your opponent is crippled and brought to his knees. His speed is reduced by 50% for the duration of the ritual. A successful Fortitude save reduces this to a 25% reduction.
Extension II: The pain increases dramatically. Your opponent suffers an additional -2 penalty to all rolls (-4 total) for the duration of the ritual. Each round he may make a Fortitude save to ignore this penalty for one round.
Extension III: Your opponent’s body is wracked and broken. Attackers gain a +10 bonus to critical conformation rolls against him for the duration of the ritual.
Extension IV: The pain increases to impossible levels. Your opponent suffers an additional -2 penalty to all rolls (-6 total) for the duration of the ritual. Each round he may make a Fortitude save to ignore this penalty for one round.
Duration:Casting + 2 rounds/Incanter level
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes


Dance of Corrosive Rain
Destruction, Adept
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 rounds
Area: A 20ft radius centered on a point in space.
Range: Medium
Effect: When you perform this ritual the skies break open and acidic rain falls on the target area. Everything in the area takes 1d6 acid damage/2 Incanter levels per round (Reflex save for half).
Extension I: The acid scars and cripples those within the area. Any creature exposed to this extension takes 1 point of Dexterity damage and 1 point of Charisma damage per round of exposure.
Extension II: The steam from the chemical reactions rises up in a toxic cloud. Each round all creatures in the area must make a Fortitude save or be nauseated for one round. A successful save reduces this to sickened.
Extension III: The acid further scars and cripples those within the area. Any creature exposed to this extension takes 2 points of Dexterity damage and 2 points of Charisma damage per round of exposure.
Extension IV: The noxious fumes grow in potency. If a creature fails it’s Fortitude save, it takes 2 points of Constitution damage in addition to being nauseated.
Duration: Casting + 1 round/Incanter level
Saving Throw: Reflex partial (see text), Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: No


Extinguish the Immortal Soul
Necromancy, Moderate
Casting Time: 2 rounds
Extension: +1 rounds
Target: 1 creature
Range: Medium
Effect: When this ritual is completed, the target’s soul is violently ripped from their body and sent to the depths of the Abyss. Your target must make a Fortitude save or die instantly. A successful save results in your target instead gaining 1d2 negative levels.
Extension I: If your target fails his or her save, the body is consumed by black fire and reduced to ash. A successful save results in your target gaining 1d4 negative levels.
Extension II: Your target’s soul is not only torn out but is also corrupted. Anyone trying to raise or resurrect your target must first succeed on a caster level check with a DC equal to your Incanter level. A successful against the death effect save results in your target gaining 1d6 negative levels.
Extension III: Your target’s soul is not only torn out but is also destroyed. Nothing short of a Wish or Miracle spell followed by a successful resurrection spell (requiring a caster level check with a DC equal to your Incanter level) can return the target to life. A successful save results in your target gaining 1d8 negative levels.
Extension IV: Your target’s soul is not only torn out but is also obliterated. Nothing short of divine intervention can return the target to life. A successful save results in your target gaining 1d10 negative levels.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes


Shatter the Standing Stone
Destruction, Minor
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Target: One object within range.
Range: Short
Effect: When you perform this ritual, make a check using your primary Incanting attribute. If the result is above the break DC of the target object, that object shatters. If the object is in the possession of a creature or is otherwise magical, it receives a Will save to negate this effect.
Extension I-IV: For each additional extension you perform, you gain a cumulative +4 bonus to the check result.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: No



Slowing the Hand’s Progression
Time, Adept
Casting Time: 1 round
Extension: +1 round
Target: All allies within 60ft
Effect: When you perform this ritual, all allies within 60ft gain an additional move action each round for the duration of this ritual.
Extension I: All allies within 60ft gain a +2 Time bonus to AC for the duration of this Ritual
Extension II: When you perform this ritual, all allies within 60ft gain an additional standard action each round for the duration of this ritual. This replaces the additional move action previously granted.
Extension III: All allies within 60ft gain a +4 Time bonus to AC for the duration of this Ritual.
Extension IV: When you perform this ritual, all allies within 60ft gain an additional full-round action each round for the duration of this ritual. This replaces the additional standard action previously granted.
Duration: Casting + 2 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Now the reasoning:

Having each class make a sacrifice for EVERY ritual was, while flavorful, kinda nerfy from a mechanical standpoint. Usually a ritual or two was all that could be reasonably accomplished before they started to be extremely impractical. For example, when a Daemon Magus has to pay 14d4 for a ritual, he can only do that two or three times a DAY. Bit of a problem there.

Also, having so many different ways to pay for a ritual was, again, flavorful, but not balanced. Timebenders had, in the long run, the most detrimental payment (unless you're an elf), but in the short run could Nova the most. Magi could only cast a few rituals a day, and Martyrs would put themselves down for weeks at a time trying to regain ability damage.

My way, while not as flavorful, is easier overall, while still being somewhat detrimental and still bringing across some of the idea of sacrifice.

Opinions?

-The Djinn

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

--Deleted to save space--

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I know...I'm currently trying to find a system of balanced sacrifices that doesn't make the class unplayable. The last ones were, while flavorful, a bit hard to work with balance-wise for reasons I've already stated.

I did add in sacrifices for class abilities that were in line with the old sacrifices, and you can make a Payment to cast faster (which ends up being a sacrifice like the old ones), but I'm having trouble finding a good, simple, balanced sacrifice for the Rituals themselves.

The issue with the old ones was how easily broken the system was. Martyrs had an immensely tough time of it, becoming weaker and weaker at a truly alarming rate as they drained their ability scores, which have a INCREDIBLY slow heal rate.

Daemon Magi killed themselves with only one or two rituals, and seemed to need a cleric sidekick to even function.

Sandmen, on the other hand, could go all day...until they cast themselves to an early grave and the player lost his character. Elves, on the other hand, break this class in new and interesting ways, what with their long life spans.

Therefore, a new method is needed.

Ideas?

[The_Werebear]

A more temporary penalty might be in line. Maybe they have to make constant fortitude saves versus becoming Fatigued/Exhausted by the energy you draw from yourself.

A possible idea for the Demon Magus/Martyr is taking subdual damage instead of lethal/ability damage. For the Sandmen, temporary aging might be a solution. You age a half year or a few months/ability during the course of a battle as you pull from time itself. When the battle is done, you are suddenly 56 years older. You suffer from the physical effects of two age categories. The years wear off at the rate of Character level years per day. Oh, and it would be entirely possible to age yourself into a coma, which would take a few days to wear off as you deaged back to a reasonable point.

[Kai-Palin]

Okay, I like the way it's set up, especially the abilities that can heal a Sacrificial Mage of his/her damage, but where did the actual sacrifice go? I think a major part of the flavor of the original class was that every magic, no matter how insignificant, required a sacrifice, and I liked that, as it lets the class be a bit more powerful than is standard, because those above-average strengths had weaknesses as well.

Essentially, what that boils down into is something like: good job, like improvements, add back in original sacrifices.

The lowered casting times is definitely good, and I like the way the extensions play out, but to make it a Sacrificial Mage it really ought to keep the sacrifices.

I vote that Autohypnosis be added as a class skill for all three subparadigms. Also, Martyrs should recieve Heal and Diplomacy or Handle Animal as a class skill, Daemon Magi should have Intimidate and Bluff, and Chronomancers should have Sense Motive (peering slightly through time to read body language) and something else (Sleight of Hand perhaps? I'm not sure). Or are those automatic skills from the original still there?

As for how to lower the sacrifices to a workable point, because I just read your reasoning, which is quite logical:

The martyr takes 1 point of physical (Str, Dex, Con) ability score damage for the activation of a Minor ritual, 2 for Adept, 3 for Moderate, and so on. This ability score damage is increased by 1 for every two extensions applied to the ritual. The martyr, empowered by her tremendous faith and the benevolence of her deity, repairs damage to herself at a fantastic rate, restoring 1 point of sacrifice-based ability damage from each physical ability score every hour. At 11th level, she recovers 2 points/hour, and upon assumption of Sacred Watcher status, 3 points/hour.

The daemon magus takes 2d6 points of damage for the activation of a Minor ritual, 3d6 for adept, 4d6 for Moderate, and so on. This damage is increased by 1d6 for every extension applied to the ritual. The daemon magus learns early in his training how to shunt pain out of his mind, and may make a Will Save with a DC equal to (10+# of d6s offered in sacrifice+# of such saves made that day) to reduce the damage done to the same number of dice, but one category lower (i.e. d6s to d4s). Perhaps if some of the Blood Sacrifice abilities increased the size of the die instead of the number of the die, at higher levels the magus could lower the die two degrees at 10th level and 3 at 20th level.

The chronomancer sacrifices prospective living time with his weaker rituals, and actual age with his powerful ones. The sandman loses a week of his life span for the activation of a Minor Ritual, two weeks for adept, three weeks for Moderate, and physically ages one week for a Major ritual, two weeks for a Supreme ritual. This penalty is increased by one week for every two extensions applied to the ritual.
The chronomancer's prospective living time is restored at a rate of 1 week of life span/day as his magic reweaves his future. Prospective living time is theoretical, merely coming from "somewhere in the mage's future," and losing it only increases the probability of a chronomancer's death. If the chronomancer has sacrificed more than one year of prospective living time, he or she is under the effect of a Curse of Impending Blades effect, while the probability of his death increases. Every time the chronomancer's sacrifice crosses the year-mark, he takes 1 point of wisdom damage that must heal normally as his psyche diverts more of its function to repairing his probable future. At 11th level, the chronomancer's magic works faster, reweaving 2 weeks/day, and at 20th level, 3 weeks/day.
Physical aging, on the other hand, does not automatically repair itself. The chronomancer ages as shown with his racial aging table, and recieves the penalties of increasing an age category (but not the benefits) whenever his ritual would send his age into a new category. In addition, if a chronomancer ages himself more than a month in any given day, he suffers a point of ability damage to each of his physical attributes.

As for the elves, can we find a magic number (somewhere around .2%) and that is the increment of days that one ages, not in a flat number of days or weeks? A percentage of one's lifetime might work better, as the Sandman's magic takes the same quality of lifespan, regardless of how long one's species lives. This means that elves don't get game-breaking benefits, but a half-orc won't kill spontaneously age himself out of existence with a single spell.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

All good ideas. I'll throw them into the mix I've got going...

Which is (opinions please)...

Each class has a...well...call it a "pool" of something (Life, Blood, Sand...).

This pool can hold up to 20 of whatever it is.

Performing a Ritual costs 1 point per level of the Ritual (1 for minor, 2 for moderate...up to 5 for Supreme).

At 1-4 points, you're golden. Nothing bad happens.

At 5-9 points, a Martyr is Fatigued, a Daemon Magus suffers 2d6 points of damage (upon passing 5) and takes a -1 penalty to all rolls, and a Sandman is treated as having the Middle Age penalties placed upon him (but none of the bonuses).

At 10-14 points, a Martyr suffers a Greater Fatigue, a Daemon Magus takes 4d6 points of damage and has the penalty increased to -2, and a Sandman is treated as being Old.

At 15-19 points, a Martyr is Exhausted, a Daemon Magus takes 6d6 points of damage and has the penalty increased to -3, and a Sandman is treated as being Venerable.

At 20+ points, a Martyr is Staggered and cannot perform Rituals, a Daemon Magus takes 8d6 points of damage, takes a -4 penalty, and cannot perform Rituals, and a Sandman falls unconscious.

These points would vanish at a set rate, maybe along the lines of 1/4 class level/hour or something.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

--Removed, to save space. The class have been updated and moved to a new thread.--

[MorkaisChosen]

I like that... The costs and benefits are balanced, and I really like the idea that you can go "WHAM! Eat flamy death!" in one turn as long as you're prepared to get hit with some fairly hefty penalties...

In fact, if the right Ritual were to exist, you could get some really cinematic moments where a Martyr resurrects, fully heals and buffs Meaty McWarrior in only a few seconds, then falls lifeless to the ground, his life-energy spent...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Awesome. Glad to know it has some approval so far.

Gareth--I'm going to take some initiative here (*rolls d20...gets a 14, +3 Dex bonus, +4 Improved Initiative, for a total of 21*) and, since this thread is getting cluttered, make a new thread for the Ritualist, being sure to mention the Paradigm Project and linking back this thread.

That will help us keep ourselves organized until such a time as the project is finished and can be collected in one central area.

Sound good?

-The Djinn

EDIT: The Ritualist (and the whole Sacrificial Paradigm) is now located HERE.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If anyone can assist me in the creation of rituals, I'd greatly appreciate it. I've got 11 traditions to make, and each needs at least three Minor rituals, three Adept rituals, three Moderate rituals, three Major rituals, and one Supreme ritual (preferably two).

That's a TON of rituals there, even though some are reused. We're looking at about 154 rituals, and I'm not sure I can do that on my own.

If you have any, post them in the Ritualist thread (in spoiler blocks please, to avoid excess clutter).

Thanks in advance!

[Lord_Gareth]

Gid, I love what you're doing, but I have something to get off my chest -

What the hell happened to making your own rituals?

That was...well, it was a very important aspect of it, the ability to forge your own spells that you (and the DM) could be proud of and use. I hate lists of spells - they're so damn limiting!

Aside from that, I love what you're doing ^_^ I suspect you'll likely end up going over/fixing Technomancers once I finish them up (still doing the technology writeup I am, young jedi), and then I'll need to do the Uber Fluff Post of Death, explaining the entirety of the Paradigms, how they work, and why they work. Kaylee will be factoring into this. Yes, that Kaylee.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I KNEW that something seemed out of place.

I'll get on that, although it's going to be damn hard balancing such a thing.

I'll see what I can do though.

[ForzaFiori]

Gid, I love what you're doing, but I have something to get off my chest -

What the hell happened to making your own rituals?

That was...well, it was a very important aspect of it, the ability to forge your own spells that you (and the DM) could be proud of and use. I hate lists of spells - they're so damn limiting!

Aside from that, I love what you're doing ^_^ I suspect you'll likely end up going over/fixing Technomancers once I finish them up (still doing the technology writeup I am, young jedi), and then I'll need to do the Uber Fluff Post of Death, explaining the entirety of the Paradigms, how they work, and why they work. Kaylee will be factoring into this. Yes, that Kaylee.

Why not start out with the rituals Djinn is making, but then add in rules on making your own? Even when you can make your own, many players might prefer not having to go to that trouble unless they have some great idea.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That was actually largely my plan. Many of the choices would be set up in a way that would allow those rituals I've created to still function.

[Lord_Gareth]

I fully approve of said plan, Djinn ^_^

In other news, I've hit minor snags on Technomancers, more of a balance and how-in-god's-name-do-I-word-this thing than a lack of ideas.

I'll have a few rituals proposed soon. You might wanna look at my old system for ideas on making your own rituals.

Last thing - have you seen the feats I threw up? Metamagic doesn't work on rituals, and neither do most other "spell" feats (metamagic rapes the game, it's true), so we're gonna need some feats for each Paradigm, and a few for the whole thing.