Around the World: An Excercise in Diplomacy

[thewamp]

And...
Spring 1925


England - Vexen
F Nat - Mao
F Iri S Nat - Mao
F Eng S Nat - Mao
F Mao - Wes
F Por - Spa (sc)
F Spa (sc) - Mar
F Pie - Tus
F Den - Nth
F Stp (nc) S Oms
F Lon Hold
F Liv - Nat
F Bre S Nat - Mao
A Gas S Por - Spa (sc)
A Mar - Bur
A Tyr - Ven
A Mun - Tyr
A Sax - Mun
A Boh S Mun - Tyr
A Gal Look at all the open SC

Italy - Charity
F apu s A ven hold
A tus s A ven hold

Japan - Maldiem
F ObA - Nat
F ObB - Mao
F Sat Supports F ObB - Mao
A Mor H
F Alg - Wes
F Wes - GoL
F Tys Supports F Wes - GoL
A Tun -Apu
F Lib Supports F Ion
F Eas Supports A Egy - Pen
F Ion Convoys A Tun - Apu
F Adr - Ven
A Nap Supports A Tun - Apu
A Egy - Pen
F Sue - Egy(NC)
F Mag - Som
F Yem - Red
F Wio H
F Tim - Eio
F Spo - Tim
F Tok - Spo
F Osa - Ecs
A Kyo - Fuj
A Syr H
A Bag Supports A Syr
A Jor Supports A Bag
A Ira H
A Afg Supports A Ira
F Per Supports A Ira
A Sib - Oms
A Tur Supports A Sib - Oms
A Sin - Sib

Turkey - Shishnarfne
A Oms H
A Mos S A Oms
A tri S A tyr-ven
F mon-adr
A alb S F gre
A sev S A arm
A arm S A smy
A smy S A arm
F bla S A arm
F con S A smy
F aeg-ion
F bul-aeg
F gre S F aeg-ion

Retreats!
A ven may disband or retreat to rom

Retreat due Friday at 2300
Fall 1925 Orders due Monday at 2300

[thewamp]

What with this game nearing the end, possibly, I'm starting a new one. Check it out:

Intrigue! Betrayal! Wacky, entertaining fun! You'll find it all in a diplomacy game where the world is dimmer. So dim, in fact, you can't see the very map of the world. But don't let that stop you. Come join the game, here!

I'm trying something new this time. I'm going to, should interest hold, run a blind game, but with an optional spying rule. We'll see how this works.

[thewamp]

This is your 28 Hour Warning

[Charity]

A ven will disband

[thewamp]

Fall 1925 - The End


England - Vexen
F Nth - Nrg
F Nat S Eng - Mao
F Iri S Eng - Mao
F Eng - Mao
F Mao - Wes
F Spa (sc) - Gol
F Mar S Spa (sc) - Gol
F Stp S Oms
F Bre S Eng - Mao
F Pie - Tus
A Gas Weep for the World
A Bur congradulate Maldiem
A Mun S Boh - Tyr
A Tyr - Ven
A Ven - Rom
A Boh - Tyr
A Gal - Boh
F Lon - Eng
F Liv S Nat

Italy - Charity
NMR - normally, I would have waited, but it actually can't matter what you do: any support order is cut and no attack order can stop maldiem.

Japan - Maldiem
A Apu - Rom
A Nap Supports A Apu - Rom
F Gol - Tus
F Tys Supports F Gol - Tus
F Alg - Wes
F Adr - Ven
F Ion H
F Eas Supports F Ion
F Lib - Tun
A Pen - Lib
F Egy(NC) - Pen
F Red - Eth
A Fuj - Eaf
F Spo Convoys A Fuj - Eaf
F Tim Convoys A Fuj - Eaf
F Eio Convoys A Fuj - Eaf
F Wio Convoys A Fuj - Eaf
F Som Convoys A Fuj - Eaf
F Ecs - Soj
A Mor H
F Sat - Mao
F ObB - ObC
F ObA - ObB
A Syr Supports A Bag - Arm
A Bag - Arm
A Ira Supports A Bag - Arm
A Jor Supports A Syr
F Per - Yem
A Afg Supports A Ira
A Sib - Oms
A Tur Supports A Sib - Oms
A Sin - Sib

Turkey - Shishnarfne
A Oms H
A Mos S A Oms
A tri S A ven
F mon-adr
A alb S F gre
A sev S A arm
A arm S A smy
A smy S A arm
F bla S A arm
F con S A smy
F aeg-ion
F bul-aeg
F gre S F aeg-ion

Elimination!
Italy was eliminated!

Victory
The victory conditions have been met! Japan is victorious!

Final Ranking
1. Japan - 37
2. England - 21
3. Turkey - 14
4. Italy - Eliminated 1925
5. Austria - Eliminated 1914
6. France - Eliminated 1911
7. India - Eliminated 1908
8. Germany - Eliminated 1907
9. China - Eliminated 1905
9. Russia - Eliminated 1905

[thewamp]

Godzilla Rules the World!
Or at least, Godzilla rules a simple majority of it.

Well we've reached the end of Around the World (finally). I'd like to congratulate Maldiem... er, I'd like to congratulate Godzilla. May he not step on us or chomp us into tiny bits.

Anyway, it's been a fun game, it's been a *long* game and I'd like to invite those who played in it to write end of game reports.

So, it's been a while since large events have happened, but I've put together a rough timeline, year-by-year of events as I saw them, just from observing the map. Obviously there were probably things going on behind the scenes, but this will hopefully serve to jog your memory if you'd forgotten some of the earlier parts of the game. This might not be perfectly accurate if I missed something happening one year and noticed it the next and attributed it to that year, but I'm pretty sure it's right

1901 - the mad dash for territories: Mavian (India) drops out and Rodgin plainly doesn't know the rules
1902 - The SC dash continues as Russia begins to fall, in the west. Also, Viggo switches to India, Mael takes over Austria. France and England are looking very strong.
1903 - England and Germany fight, France and Italy fight, Russia and Japan fight. Russia is on the wane, as is China and Europe looks like a patchwork quilt. Not, you know, literally.
1904 - Japan is plainly on the rise. Rodgin (China) has dropped out and will not be replaced. In the east, things are looking difficult for France and the off board squares begin to be used... Europe continues to look ridiculous. I've no idea what's going on here, though plainly germany is having troubles...
1905 - In the spring, Germany and India NMR. France is still growing in the east, but having troubles in the west. Austria is at Germany's doorstep and Japan look very powerful. He is even in Iran, momentarily, though Turkey is still looking very strong as is Italy. Also, the familiar setup surrounding oms has been established and will last until the game ends. China is eliminated.
1906 - Germany has not returned (this was Elektro's mysterious and sad disappearance from the forums). India is also falling as is France in the West. Everyone else is looking pretty strong.
1907 - Japan attacks India and France and Germany is eliminated.
1908 - Austria has seemed to run into a brick wall of allies... India is eliminated and France is on the brink
1909, 1910 - England betrays Austria while France holds on for dear life. In the east, this whole time, Italy and Turkey are sparring with Japan
1911 - France is finally eliminated, Turkey attacks Austria, Japan is being slowly pushed back.
1912 - Austria crumbles. In one year, they fall from 8 SCs to 2. The War against Japan continues...
1913 - England betrays Italy as Austria is all but eliminated. Though Italy is stronger, England is set up better. The stab is effective.
1914 - England and Italy battle in the west, while Turkey and Italy are pushed back by Japan in the west. Japan consolidates control over the Indian ocean. Italy makes the crucial decision to disband its two armies that border Turkey.
1915 - Though England had taken all of France and Iberia, Italy appears poised to turn the tide, and indeed retakes Marseilles and all of Iberia. Unfortunately, Turkey, who hesitated in the spring, lunges forward into Italian territory in the fall. Japan is now bordering the middle east and africa.
1916 - Italy is holding its own against England, but Turkey is meeting little resistance.
1917 - Japan pushes through to take Bagdad and Iran. Japan is also doing this strange dance around Italy's supply centers, protecting them while not taking them.
1918-1920 - Turkey and England consolidate control of Europe, with the exception of the Italian peninsula. Japan has spread throughout Africa and begun to push at the Mediterranean sea. A tedious and ultimately pointless battle is occurring just south of Turkey as Japan tries to push in

At roughly this point, Maldiem produces a colorful histogram here that shows the progression of the game. It's very pretty.

1921-1923 - Both sides bicker over venice as Japan and Italy slowly retake the Mediterranean
1924 - Japan finally sweeps into Italian centers, coming within 2 SCs of victory, which he is well positioned to take in 1925
1925 - Japan takes those SCs and the game ends, just as venice falls back into English hands and Italy is eliminated.

So anyway, write end of game reports! Let me know what was happening behind the scenes!

[Vexen]

England EOG –
I promised Moody that I would provide a detailed EOG, shortly before he was eliminated. I also, kind of lost interest in the game at some point and must apologize to the Wamp and everyone else, I think that orders were always delayed because I would forget to send them in. This is partially because I have been working full time and in August of last year I went back to school part time on top of that. In addition I have moved 2 during the course of this game, and gone on two lengthy vacations. Ho boy!

So lets see, my original intention was to see if I could get my colony to survive. Thus I felt it good to ally myself with France as we would have common interests. However, early on Germany and Italy informed me they were ganging up on France and wanted me to join. I thought this was a good idea but didn’t want to offend France, so I tried to play both sides and not commit. This didn’t work, Germany was very demanding that I move against France or he would switch sides. I moved to English Channel in the Fall and successfully offended France and failed to appease Germany. Needless to say, I lost my colony in the east and Germany did decide to attack me instead of France.

As of the end of 1904, it looked like my days were numbered. Not only were France and Germany allied against me, but Russia had an insatiable case of revenge against me. I must sadly admit that had it not been for the German NMR I may not have survived the game, and France may have lasted quite a bit longer. I don’t know but I think the NMR convinced Austria to attack Germany. While I consolidated my losses, Austria took most of Germany.

So what started primarily as an EIG alliance became EI with a weak England, and at some point Turkey and Austria joined in. India joined the fray at some point but ended up being not much but a buffer.

It seemed to me that the off board spaces between the Atlantic and Pacific were a stalemate line and futile for me to expand that way so thus in 1909, I began the systematic stabbing of my allies. I attacked Austria first, I felt really bad about this seeing as he was so polite to me during the conquering of Germany. It took a while before Italy joined in, once he did it was over for Austria.

In 1913 I stabbed Italy, I tried to form an alliance or truce with Japan, this obviously didn’t work, I think mainly because my diplomatic skills sucked, and school had started and I just wasn’t communicating very much. Turkey refused to join in, Shisnarfne was very loyal throughout the game I think and didn’t like the stabs. In 1914 I overextended myself in the Iberian to force a disband of as many Italian troops as possible hoping it would sway Turkey’s mood. It did I think because in fall of 1915 he finally moved against Italy, but it was too little too late. I guess I can’t blame him because if Turkey joined in the spring of 1914 he would have gained very few Italian provinces and mainly would have been a distraction to let my forces in. The lack of support from Turkey though allowed Italy to greatly slow my advance which in the end led to the stalemate line in the Mediterranean.

As Japan began to move into the mediteranean he did something very smart. He didn’t take the Italian SC, which allowed Italy to keep me at bay so he could position his troops to take Africa in one fell swoop. I tried to break into the Mediterranean but I was too late to stop the inevitable. Congratulations Maldiem, a profound apology to all those I stabbed, sorry TheWamp for all the late orders, and finally thanks everyone for the really great game. Though I think from now on I will stick to standard diplomacy and one game at a time as I just don’t have the attention span.

[Maldiem]

Godzilla's EoG

When the game started, I figured out Rodgin didn't really know what the heck he was doing pretty early (like, in the diplo phase of spring 01). Based on that, I figured I'd take out Russia first and then sweep South. I also decided to ally Moody, as all I really needed was the most basic of threats to point to south of east asia and Rodgin would stay away.

Even though it was an unintentional NMR disband, I think Russia's "decision" to disband his eastern armies actually worked in his favor-- I had enough SCs available to me already that I didn't have to take them, and that left Russia with three units and no SCs to defend. I am very surprised that he didn't manage to take anything back, and I think the game could have gone very differently if he had, say, managed to hold Oms or mount a Scandinavian last-ditch push.

At around that point I started moving into off-board boxes, and made what I think was my biggest mistake of the game-- instead of proceeding with an invasion of England like I'd planned, I let Moody convince me to try for Africa instead. If I'd kept going, I would have had an army in England 1906, while France still had a fleet in Liv to support the landing; I could have had a European theater as well as an Indian Ocean theater.

When Moody started losing in Europe, I knew that he was going to start rebuilding the units that got destroyed in Europe in the south Pacific. I also knew that without Moody propping him up, Viggo was basically done, so I resolved to solve both problems. I got Moody to stab Viggo's SE Asian assets, which served the double purpose of propping France up in Europe a bit longer and making Viggo's SCs fall to the East, rather than the West. After that, I was free to stab Moody, since my armies in India could (and did) delay Turkey on the land long enough for my fleets to get in there and support their advance.

The one army in Africa I did manage to land served pretty well, as I could harass Italy's SCs and interfere with building, and it required him to land more armies in Africa, taking them away from his European line. My strategy in the Indian Ocean maritime trench warfare boiled down to "stop Italy from building, destroy fleets", and I think it worked, albeit slowly, quite well (a major turning point was when I trapped the Italian fleet in Eio). It took me awhile, but I managed to edge Turkey out of India, and then I made my second biggest mistake of the game; instead of surrounding but not destroying the Turkish units and moving on to Turkey, I played conservatively and consolidated India, which gave Shihnarfne a long time to plan and set up the Smy-Arm-Sev line.

Vexen's offer at an alliance seemed like a clumsy trap to me (he asked me to get out of Spo and Npo), and I figured that even if he was sincere, there wasn't any way we could cooperate anyway. I also figured that if he didn't go along with it, there was only one more place he could mount a stab, and I was right. Even if Turkey hadn't rolled on Italy, I think the distraction of Vexen's invasion would have compromised Africa.

After Shisnarfne stabbed Charity, Charity was a lot more willing to help me advance the Middle Eastern theater. Even though we had some difficulties with getting around Egypt, I think that alliance was the most successful I've ever had in a Diplo game, even though I ended up stabbing him.

While I realized I could win by stabbing Charity, I had hoped I'd be able to break into Turkey at the very least. I've got to give Shisnarfne credit, he held the Caucasian-Aegean-Baltic line quite effectively. When if became clear that I wasn't going to break into Europe anywhere but Italy (about 1922ish), I started moving my forces to be able to grab as much Italy as I could while keeping Vexen out of the Med.

Charity's near-NMRs made me very nervous there for awhile, and I'm glad he never did.

I'd also like to congratulate the other players, particularly Shisnarfne, as he fought a molasses land war across Asia cleverly and with determination. I'd feared I would get stuck at the Calcutta line for awhile there, and that was all him. Vexen and Charity also played very well, so basically, kudos to everybody.

Also, big thanks to thewamp for running a game (any kind of game) on the GitP boards for much longer than I've seen one go on here. Your DMing skills are amazing.

Now that I've played a full game, I've got some observations about YT:
1) STALEMATE LINES: The board is lousy with them. The only powers that have a realistic chance of winning are those that either sit across the major lines (India, Russia, Italy, Turkey), or get going a lot faster than normal and so can get to them as fast as possible (that would be Japan, in this game). In particular, I think the Oms-Sib line is ridiculous, with the Wio-Eio line a close second (Cey just makes it a giant chore to get across, if its hostile). The normal Diplo stalemate lines also make an appearance, not really mitigated much by the off-board boxes. This game very nearly ended in a draw, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the outcome of the majority of YT games that make it this far.

2) Italy: It just seems overpowered in YT. In order to stop it, really one or both of India or Turkey have to make suboptimal moves, and even then its African assets are in an even fight. France seems particularly screwed by this, as the result of an Italian African sweep has been conquest of France in both the YT games I've seen go that far.

3) Austria: It seems even more like a lame horse in YT than in normal diplomacy-- the focus of the game as a worldwide engagement makes its crippling problem, building fleets, even worse. As Mael found out, you can't really hold anything without fleets nearby, and its my opinion that Austria doesn't really have any sort of a real chance to win a YT game.

[Shishnarfne]

Turkey EoG:
This was my first Youngstown game, so I volunteered to play Turkey to avoid having to learn how to use the Off-board spaces. I initially tried to take out much of Russia while keeping at least neutral relations with as many other powers as possible. This led to a few misunderstandings with other players as they assumed that I was allied with powers with whom I was merely trying to maintain neutral relations. This forced my hand between Italy and India as I tried to avoid taking sides (I was convinced I'd have to eventually turn against Italy to win) until India made it clear that he didn't trust me.

I can't take full credit for the Eastern land defense against Godzilla: Italy suggested to me that I ferry those armies across into India, so he deserves a fair bit of the credit. I think that the decision to stab Italy was not a good one, and that it was poorly executed. Perhaps I should have tried to keep together a "Stop the Lizard" coalition, which I hoped to use to break Godzilla's power. Afterwards, I was hoping to get an opportune moment to
strike vigorously against Italy.

As Italy and Japan had over half the Supply Centers (and were well placed to remove my initial attempt to halt Godzilla's armies near Baghdad), what remained was a tough rearguard action. It was only a small consolation that Italy was eliminated in Maldiem's well-earned victory.

Oddly enough, I received an apparently misdirected PM that suggested that the intended recipient was well on the path to victory... While India was still on the board. I suspected then that it might have originally been intended for Maldiem.

Yes, I was worried early about Godzilla as I saw China was not very skilled (and soon not very responsive) and that there were no other powers really well placed to repel Maldiem. This led me to the odd place of attempting to give Russia constructive advice about ways to secure his eastern flank while I was trying to take out his homeland.
I don't think that this was appreciated... I can't say that I blame Russia for that either.

This was my first full-length PbP game (and one of only a handful of games "to the bitter end" that I have played on any map), so I think that I diplomed somewhat naively, but I am pleasantly surprised that I managed to hold my defenses as long as I did.
Oddly, I wonder if the final position was close to a stalemate scenario: could Maldiem have advanced much further than the Italian peninsula? I don't know.

[Vexen]

With regards to the end result, I don't think the end board is stable. I don't believe Maldiem could actually hold the italian penninsula, but would most likely loose it. This, however, I believe just shows the cunning of his move to dance around italy until he could swallow him whole. With the supply centers italy had and with the support of the japanese troops Italy could hold Turkey and England out of rome and naples indefinitely, Possilby even hold venice. Had some peicewise method of conquering Italy had taken place by Maldiem, there would not have been enough SC left for him to win. Obviously his stab on Italy was much more thought out than my stab on italy or Austria for that matter.

As for your diplomacy with Russia Shishnarfne, I think it may have had more effect then you think. I tried to understand why Russia had such a grudge against me that he forgot everyone else, in particular I thought he would be more upset with you in turkey. Maybe your letters swayed him.

As further input into my stab against Italy, I probably should have waited until Turkey was fully onboard. I would like to say that my decision was purely diplomatic, however, outside factors weighed more heavily.
1. I went back to school and found I had little or no time to negotiate.
2. The game was beginning to strain my attention span, I got bored.

Italy insisted with moving against the Off board squares, this looked like a stalemate line, which meant waiting for the war in india to be won. I didn't trust that. The stab seemed good because Italy was wide open to attack and it felt like my best chance.

My major stupidity was hoping to be able to negotiate an agreement with Japan. Considering Item 1 above, that didn't work out to well, my communications were not thought out and I can't really blame Maldiem for ignoring me.

I agree with Maldiem, I have some issues with the layout of the YT version. #1 is standard is sufficiently long, this is suicidal. Also, I don't see how Austria stands any chance of winning being so land locked and surrounded. Also, france is just screwed, maybe moody can say differently, but it appears that they are forced at the beginning of the game to go against Italy as they have the best chance of stopping italy from just taking Africa. If I were to playing as england i realize that the off board units are terrible, they seem like safe boarder, but if you don't cross them quick and get bogged down in Europe, they turn into a major stalemate line. But then again it takes so long to cross in the beginning of the game that it is detrimental to move that way.

It really mixes up standard alliances and methodology to the play. Maybe if I played it enough I could find out how it works, I don't think three way alliances are enough in this game though. You almost have to have a 4 person alliance to get stuff done.

[Moody the Wise]

I wish I could come up with an EoG for this game, but I remember so little of it. It was such a long time ago ...

I will say, though, that if anyone has any specific questions about why I did such and such thing, maybe it'll jog my memory and I'll try to provide you with an answer.

[Mael]

Mael's Eog,

First off, congrat's to Godzilla. It really looked many times as if this game was going to stalemate, so well done for pulling out the win.

It's been a while since I was in the game, and I wasn't really keeping notes on my thought process at the time, so the following may bear little reseblence to fact, but....

My initial plan was something along the lines of
1) ignore Italy until I have to attack him as I can't get enough fleets quickly enough to attack him.
2) attack either Russia or Turkey with the help of the other
3) attack 1 or more of Germany\Turkey\Italy\Russia (depending on who I allied with first, and what the board looked like).

As it happened, step 2 became attack Germany instead of Russia, and leave Turkey to kill Russia by himself.

Unfortunately by the time I killed Germany, Japan was dancing all over Asia.
And because I'd gone against Germany instead of one of the traditional enemies, I was really over stretched and could only really attack Turkey. I could also attack Italy, but I couldn't see how to get much headway up against him without lots of help. And I saw Turkey as the only thing keeping Japan from breaking into eastern Europe, so if he was to die, I'd need it to be quick and without Japan's assistance.
So, to make the attack against either Turkey or Italy, I'd need the help of the other, and I wasn't sure how closely they were allied. Both of them were (or I thought should have been) worrying mostly about Japan, and were each in the best place to stop him on one side of the map or the other. So they each had good reasons for not wanting to weaken the other. On the other hand, they had no reason not to eliminate me if they could spare the units. So I was keeping quiet about the idea of stabbing someone.
Then England attacked me, then Italy attacked me, then I died.

Vexen, don't feel bad about attacking me at all. It would have been crazy not to. I couldn't really help you much attacking elsewhere, and I couldn't retaliate against you without fleets up there. So you were absolutely right to attack me.

As for winning as Austria. My best hope of getting anything out of the game was that the game would stalemate and I'd get a share of the draw. But even then, I was unlikely to be occupying any of the crucial points on the board, so was likely to be killed before the draw finalised anyway.
This board has far too many stalemate lines though, even with Japan's meteoric start, I really thought it was going to bog down in stalemate somewhere.

[Vexen]

At Moody:

The only question I have for you is regarding Germany. In the beginning of the game he was attacking you, and asking for my assisstance. Then next thing I know the two of you were allied and attacking me. I am curious if you remember how this turn of events occured?

[Moody the Wise]

At Moody:

The only question I have for you is regarding Germany. In the beginning of the game he was attacking you, and asking for my assisstance. Then next thing I know the two of you were allied and attacking me. I am curious if you remember how this turn of events occured?

Good question. If I recall correctly, Germany was Elektro at the time. The initial attack towards me might have been a diversionary tactic, or it might have been Elektro screwing me - I don't remember what I thought at the time, and only he could say for sure. However, I do know that I wanted to ally with him against you, after we had some issues cooperating. I never felt like I could really trust you, Vexen. Like, even for one turn. I don't know if it's just a personal grudge, or a general hesitation to commit to alliances early, or a misplaced conception of me as a person you absolutely can't trust, but whatever it is, we just haven't clicked lately in games. I did want to have a strong EF to expand in Asia, but after I decided I couldn't really trust you, I went with the German route and tried to make myself useful to Japan in the East. At least, that's what I think happened, more or less.