95 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 85

[fendrin]

However, I don’t think a direct order to disobey would be ignored.

I suppose it would all depend on the unit's Obedience vs. Loyalty.

If a ruler gives a unit the order is to become another ruler's unit (as a true subject, not a spy or anything), then I think it would be a test of Obedience vs. Loyalty.

I would speculate that self preservation would be an inverse of Loyalty. The more loyal a unit is, the more likely they will sacrifice themselves for their ruler. On the other hand, the less loyal they are, the more likely they are to act on self-interest.

Here's where this all starts to not matter: These stats are invisible, and not able to be directly manipulated^*. In the end, this isn't much different than our own world, where individuals have varying levels of obedience, loyalty, and duty. If you look at real-world examples of feudalism, you will see that it isn't really that much different than Erfworld. Individuals have a certain amount of Obedience, Loyalty, and Duty. Now, if a certain individual is given an order to become the subject of another feudal lord (e.g. they are exiled), the individual has a choice: be obedient and leave, or by loyal and stay. Note that this might get the individual killed, but a 100% loyal subject would prefer to die than to serve another.

*Thinkamancy may be an exception, but I think that, like propaganda, it would be more of an indirect effect. I have no proof of this either way, though.

Wanda couldn’t force J to do something against her basic nature either… Hm…

1) That is 'Artificial Thinkamancy', not 'Natural Thinkamancy'. The rules are likely a bit different.
2) We don't know if Wanda could not or would not.

[Erasmus]

In the end, this isn't much different than our own world, where individuals have varying levels of obedience, loyalty, and duty.

Sounds familiar

But i agree, completely.


Also,

It makes you wonder. Can a Commander ORDER a unit to be disloyal? Or, more directly applicable to the Parson/Bogroll scenario, can Parson order Bogroll to ignore the effects of the theoretical Obedience, Duty, and Loyalty statistics? If he could, what would happen? If those stats exist, then Bogroll would be compelled to at least attempt to ignore them. However, if they are as binding as the known stats (you cannot move more than your move stat, no matter how much you want to), he would likely fail the attempt. Would anyone even be able to tell?

On the flip side of this, couldn't you just order someone to be completely loyal to you, and have them ignore their Loyalty, Obedience, and Duty "stats"?
Which i think proves you could not order them to do that sort of thing, or that it would not have any effect.

[hajo]

It's a little sad, really. Now I know that Bogroll is going to die at some point to save Parson.

I would surely expect some heroic action, but that does not mean he has to die - and Bogroll has regeneration...

[krossbow]

haha, I just noticed the mounted peep's head on the wall. Sweet.

[fendrin]

haha, I just noticed the mounted peep's head on the wall. Sweet.

It's a good indicator that Parson is still using the quarters he was assigned before Stanley left.

[Wender]

These stats are invisible, and not able to be directly manipulated^*. In the end, this isn't much different than our own world, where individuals have varying levels of obedience, loyalty, and duty.

In other words these "invisible stats" might be a conjecture from an Erfworlder accustomed to every unit having visible stats, when they are facets of an intrinsic and unquantifiable personality, just as they do in our own world.

Then again, that's a conjecture from someone accustomed to every individual having an intrinsic and unquantifiable personality.

[fendrin]

In other words these "invisible stats" might be a conjecture from an Erfworlder accustomed to every unit having visible stats, when they are facets of an intrinsic and unquantifiable personality, just as they do in our own world.

Then again, that's a conjecture from someone accustomed to every individual having an intrinsic and unquantifiable personality.

Precisely. As far as we know, we all have such stats that we just can't see. Many philosophers speculate that free will is an illusion. I don't particularly agree, but I cannot refute the claim, either.

[Keri Thornwood]

Hmm, to save the life of your lord and master, or have strawberry cake. Decisions, decisions... Why does everything have to be so tough?!

Is it a whole strawberry cake? Because, you know, that makes a difference.

[lovelyluthien]

Oh, the Parson/Bogroll fanfics write themselves!

Noooooooo! I don't think even acid will rid my brain of that thought now. Why did you have to say that? Why did I have to read it? Why?

... ...Great character development, by the way!

[iabervon]

The think that I noticed that nobody's mentioned is the juxtaposition of Bogroll looking at Parson from Parson's viewpoint and Parson looking at Bogroll from Bogroll's perspective, and them looking much the same. I think Parson's realizing that there's a good chance that he could sacrifice Bogroll to make people think he (Parson) is dead... and it'd be a useful strategy, and he can't help but notice it, but considering actually taking this action in what's passing for real life is shocking to him.

[fendrin]

I also can't help but think that maybe Parson is doubting whether he deserves such loyalty.

[MuseUnchained]

I wanna get back to fighting, both in Erfworld and Oots, way too much talking

Kind of annoyed by it now.

So I take it in a game sense, you'd be a dungeoncrawl type of player? Personally, yes, the frequency of updates is annoying, but hack and slash all the way through would turn me off, character development is an important part of the game as well. I play some of my games on a forum and we went over two thousand posts/several months (I'd guess it would be one or two gaming sessions live) without rolling a die in combat, but it was worth it for the relationships the characters have built between them.

As for this strip, my first reaction was 'awwwwww' :p Looking at it objectively, I wouldn't quite know how to take that either for the reasons already mentioned, is Bogroll saying that to me because I'm likely to die, because he is forced to by natural thinkamancy or because he genuinely cares, and if he dies as a result of this, then it would be hard to figure out which of the two situations would be harder to handle.

Still, whether this is because of stats making someone loyal or genuine, he seems to have a natural charisma or likeability at least. Misty was not ordered to help him, she came up to do that herself, Sizemore is willing to help him and, even if he was trying to do so by confusing Bogroll, he has shown that he will look out for his better interests. Maggie is loyal to him as well, but this is where the natural thinkamancy would come in if anywhere and also because she's scared of him. As far as Wanda goes, we're going to have to wait for her to wake up before we see the situation there, whether she'd serve him solely because she has to or if there's something else there, that should be interesting.

[kunou126]

Bogroll is loyal to a fault. He isn't particularly bright, but his heart is always in the right place. This is not thinkamancy at work. Remember that Stanley ordered Parson around. Parson didn't want to obey but was compelled to. This is clearly different from how Bogroll reacts - he does so freely and of his own choosing.

[teratorn]

Noooooooo! I don't think even acid will rid my brain of that thought now. Why did you have to say that? Why did I have to read it? Why?

Why did you have to comment on that? Why? I didn't know what fanfic was about and after your post I decided to check...

[spite48]

Thanks for the comic!

[Arkenputtyknife]

Bogroll is loyal to a fault. He isn't particularly bright, but his heart is always in the right place. This is not thinkamancy at work. Remember that Stanley ordered Parson around. Parson didn't want to obey but was compelled to. This is clearly different from how Bogroll reacts - he does so freely and of his own choosing.

Does he? Or is he unaware that there is any alternative? If, as is suggested, he's lived all his life (however long or short that may have been) in a world where everybody follows the rules, where doing your own thing is—for most characters (I'm not sure about the likes of Stanley, Ansom etc.)—impossible, even inconceivable, how can we say that what he did was of his own free will? We don't even know that he has free will.

The comparison with Parson is not appropriate. Parson is from a different world and clearly does not conform to all of Erfworld's rules. Parson has been exposed to the concept of free will all his life; we don't know that Bogroll can even imagine such a thing.

[kunou126]

Well then, compare to Wanda. Wanda is a unit in this world without the external frame of reference. Like Parson, it's clear she doesn't like taking orders from the Tool, but does so because she's forced to.

[Bongos]

It must now be clear to parson that he is the leader if Gobwin Knob and the inhabitants are now dependent upon him for their lives.

The difference between Parson and Stanley is Parson has a conscience, already it is apparent he is more concerned with his subjects than Stanley.

He will fight and try to win, not because he wants to, but his subjects need him too.

[Caledonian]

Why do I get the feeling there is a way to manipulate this to Parson's advantage that I am not quite grasping?

"Fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever, seven words to make them go without pain..."

Four words to set them free.

Spoiler

Show

“What do you suppose it means?” he asked. “’DO WHAT YOU WISH.’ That must mean I can do anything I feel like. Don’t you think so?”

All at once Grograman’s face looked alarmingly grave, and his eyes glowed.

“No,” he said in his deep, rumbling voice. “It means that you must do what you really and truly want. And nothing is more difficult.”

[Hallavast]

Mmm... Cake...

[Gathers Scrolls]

Caledonian, what does your quote about fourteen and seven words mean? Where does that come from? It sounds compelling.

[ShinyBrowncoat]

The think that I noticed that nobody's mentioned is the juxtaposition of Bogroll looking at Parson from Parson's viewpoint and Parson looking at Bogroll from Bogroll's perspective, and them looking much the same. I think Parson's realizing that there's a good chance that he could sacrifice Bogroll to make people think he (Parson) is dead... and it'd be a useful strategy

Interesting idea, but I think that would be out of character for Parson...

[Caledonian]

"We are dreamers, shapers, singers, and makers. We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, crystal and scanner, holographic demons and invocations of equations. These are the tools we employ, and we know many things: fourteen words to make someone fall in love with you forever, seven words to make them go without pain, how to say goodbye to a friend who is dying, how to be poor, how to be rich, how to rediscover dreams when the world has stolen them from you." - Elric the Technomage

"Our order says many things. It does a few of them. Believes in fewer still." - The Avatar

That's enough clues, I think.

[Aquillion]

The think that I noticed that nobody's mentioned is the juxtaposition of Bogroll looking at Parson from Parson's viewpoint and Parson looking at Bogroll from Bogroll's perspective, and them looking much the same. I think Parson's realizing that there's a good chance that he could sacrifice Bogroll to make people think he (Parson) is dead... and it'd be a useful strategy, and he can't help but notice it, but considering actually taking this action in what's passing for real life is shocking to him.

To make who think he is dead?

Nobody on Ansom's side has ever seen him. Only Jillian has even heard of him, and there's no indication that she thinks he's even remotely important (important enough to mention to anyone else, say.) Ansom clearly doesn't know that Stanley has/had a new strategist (since he acted under the assumption that Stanley was too stupid to pull a trick like that, before.)

The only people who know about Parson are Stanley (who can't be fooled like that, since he'd find out the next time he got a unit report) and the rest of his side (who it would be pointless to fool.)

[zeropsm]

To make who think he is dead?

Nobody on Ansom's side has ever seen him. Only Jillian has even heard of him, and there's no indication that she thinks he's even remotely important (important enough to mention to anyone else, say.) Ansom clearly doesn't know that Stanley has/had a new strategist (since he acted under the assumption that Stanley was too stupid to pull a trick like that, before.)

The only people who know about Parson are Stanley (who can't be fooled like that, since he'd find out the next time he got a unit report) and the rest of his side (who it would be pointless to fool.)

Agreed, and plus, I think Parson wouldn't be so cruel to somene who just said that will risk it's own live to him....'free will...that's what's in Parson's head now...he's trying to Exploit it.

[Ganurath]

Am I the only one who remembers that they look nothing alike in that only one of them has stats?

[zeropsm]

Am I the only one who remembers that they look nothing alike in that only one of them has stats?

I think the answer is NO

[fendrin]

Am I the only one who remembers that they look nothing alike in that only one of them has stats?

Nope. You're just the only one who felt like saying anything about it .

[Aquillion]

Am I the only one who remembers that they look nothing alike in that only one of them has stats?

To be fair, the only people who know that Parson has no stats are also the ones who wouldn't be fooled by Bogroll anyway... only overlords and casters can see it, and all the casters who've seen him are people he has no reason to fool.

Although... come to think of it, I'm guessing people's stats vanish on death anyway. In that case, Parson could "play dead" without any need for Bogroll's help.

[BarGamer]

I agree, Bogroll can't die! He has regeneration! Unless he gets one-shotted. Regen didn't save the one that Jillian croaked, way back when.