Arena Tournament, Round 32: Chile II vs. Roberts

[Mavian]

Roberts: Round 1 Redux Starting in Z13 with my crossbow and a potion

Move Action: Z13 to Z8
Standard Action: Drink Potion

End of Turn:

Stats for Refs:

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Ha, I'm going to do exactly the same thing as last time. Pretend to drink the vial. Bluff: (1d20+6)[24]. The thing is, could one of the refs roll the check for him, because if you ask him to do it, he'll instantly know something is up.
Actually, there's no way in hell he can beat the roll, so nobody even needs to roll for him.
Hp: 10
AC: 18, 15, 13
Speed: 30
Position: Z8

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[chilepepper]

Rematch Round 2

Move to D2 while drawing my scroll and reading from it, then I discard the sheet of parchment.

Sense Motive (1d20-1)[19]
Just in case you're ballsy enough to try the same trick.

refs

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I don't really care about the sense motive roll. If I did, I'd argue for a +20 modifier since I just saw the same trick. It'll be obvious in the next couple rounds whether or not he drank it. If he is trying to bluff me again, I just don't want any tip-off that I don't buy it.

DC3 caster level check (1d20+1)[11] for 2nd level scroll

HP: 5
AC: 19 T:14 F:15
DR 10/magic (vs ranged)
Spells: 3,4
Buffs: Mage Armor 2/600, Protection from Arrows 0/10dmg
Position: D2, mounted

edit: Done

[Talic]

Ref Talic

@Mavian

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Here for theatric effect

@Chile

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Results of sense motive:
Mavian's char seems to have actually drank it this time.

[Mavian]

Roberts - Round 2 Redux

For Refs:

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I'm going to delay my move until the next round.

Move Action: Z8 -> W5
Standard Action: No Visible Action

End of Turn

Stats for Refs

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Hp: 10
AC: 18, 15, 13
Speed: 30
Position: W5

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[chilepepper]

Rematch round 3

Move to G8. Done.

refs

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I ready an action to breath if I get LoE in range, my mount readies an action to move if we're attacked.

HP: 5
AC: 19 T:14 F:15
DR 10/magic (vs ranged)
Spells: 3,4
Buffs: Mage Armor 3/600, Protection from Arrows 0/10dmg
Position: G8, mounted

[Mavian]

Roberts - Round 4 part deux

Move Action: W5->V10
Standard Action: Ready an Action

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Ready an action to take a shot at Chile's mount if LoE is established, and then 5 foot step.

End of Turn:

Stats for Refs

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Hp: 10
AC: 18, 15, 13
Speed: 30
Position: V10

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[chilepepper]

Now we're in round 4

Move to B2, done.

refs

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I ready an action to breath if I get LoE in range, my mount readies an action to move if we're attacked.

HP: 5
AC: 19 T:14 F:15
DR 10/magic (vs ranged)
Spells: 3,4
Buffs: Mage Armor 4/600, Protection from Arrows 0/10dmg
Position: B2, mounted

[Mavian]

Roberts - Round 5 redux

Move Action: V10->Q11
Standard Action: Ready an Action

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Ready an action to move if LoS is established

End of Turn:

Stats for Refs

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Hp: 10
AC: 18, 15, 13
Speed: 30
Position: V10

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[chilepepper]

Why are you a round off?

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

I think he is counting each turn as one round. Don't worry about it. Round count only matters for short term spells and effects.

[chilepepper]

Rematch Round 5

Move to H7. Done (now it's your turn in the 5th round).

refs

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I ready an action to breath if I get LoE in range, my mount readies an action to move if he attacks.

HP: 5
AC: 19 T:14 F:15
DR 10/magic (vs ranged)
Spells: 3,4
Buffs: Mage Armor (ends in R601), Protection from Arrows 0/10dmg (R3602)
Position: H7, mounted

BTW, I know it was a bluff in round 1. If a high ref wants to know how I know, I can explain.

[Mavian]

Round 6 - And yes, I know how to count.

Move Action: Q11->P13
Standard Action: Fire at your Mount
Attack: (1d20+7)[21]
Damage: (1d4)[2]

[chilepepper]

If your count is correct, could you please explain how you did nothing in round three without posting it, and then denied me my turn in round 4?

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Why are you fighting over round count? It doesn't matter unless you have actualy had a turn skipped. Take your turn, Chilepepper.

[chilepepper]

I'm confused, if Roberts count is correct, then he did nothing in round 3, my count is off, and one of my turns got skipped.

[Mavian]

Your right, I didn't do anything in round 3. But that doesn't mean any of your rounds got skipped.

[chilepepper]

...I'll continue the match under the assumption that all is well, but I still need an answer.

Roberts, your movement triggers my readied action. When LoE is established at P13, I breathe,

Entangling Acid Breath
(1d6)[1] Acid (Ref DC15 for half damage)
You are Entangled for (1d4)[4] rounds and take 1d6 acid damage at the beginning of each of my turns during the duration.

If you wish to change your standard action, you may.

[chilepepper]

Your right, I didn't do anything in round 3. But that doesn't mean any of your rounds got skipped.

So the whole rolling initiative thing doesn't matter?

[Mavian]

Why would you think rolling initiative doesn't matter? If we didn't roll initiative, we wouldn't know who goes first in a round.

Reflex Save (1d20+4)[13]

[chilepepper]

Well, since I won initiative, I should be going first in the round. If you did nothing in round 3, then I would go first in round 4, not the other way around.

Also, are you still taking the shot at Hoofy?

[Talic]

Ref Talic

Rounds are correct, no actions have been skipped. An initiative modifying action seems to have caused the confusion. Currently, Mavian is the first player in each round, Chile is the second.

[Mavian]

Yes, I am still shooting your pony in the face.

[chilepepper]

Ref Talic

Rounds are correct, no actions have been skipped. An initiative modifying action seems to have caused the confusion. Currently, Mavian is the first player in each round, Chile is the second.

That would mean you delayed in round three, and ended delay in round 4 before my action. I want to say that delaying should've been posted, but since initiative counts that don't have anything on them don't actually exist, no actual time passed, therefor it wasn't really a visible action. It also would have no effect on the game other than if you had some continuing effect that ended at the end of your turn. Since effects endings and changes trigger at the beginning of your turn and not the end, the only difference is that you get to say you're first in the round. There might be something I'm missing, and since you tried to keep the delay secret, I wouldn't expect you to explain it to me. I guess you could have some weird round fetish, but my assumption is that you just wanted to mess with my head. Sooo... mission accomplished.

Yes, I am still shooting your pony in the face.

Attacking triggers my ponies readied action and it moves us to P7, blocking your shot.

and now that I understand (at least a little) That makes it my turn in the bottom of the 6th.

You take (1d6)[2] acid damage from the entanglement effect.

I'll move to I4 and breath a normal acid breath.
(2d6)[9] acid (reflex DC15 for half)
And I'm done.

refs

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The pony readies another move if Roberts attacks anything.

HP: 5
AC: 19 T:14 F:15
DR 10/magic (vs ranged)
Spells: 3,2
Buffs: Mage Armor (ends in R601), Protection from Arrows 0/10dmg (R3602)
Position: I4, mounted

[Mavian]

You were right, there was a reason that I changed my Initiative around. It was because I figured this would become around of readied actions. And in the case of readied actions, going first has palpable consequences.

If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Which means your turn as written is currently illegal.

[chilepepper]

Well, if delaying as you did causes an actual difference in the game, I would have to argue that delaying from the bottom of the round to the next round is a discernible action and should've been posted outside of spoilers. Even if it's ruled okay to post it in spoilers, I should've seen a post from you saying
Round 3 spoilered text
Round 4 as written

That would've at least made it clear that you meant round 4 and that it wasn't just a typo. Then when I said "Now we're in round 4" you should've clarified that it was actually the middle of round 4 not the beginning. As I pressed for clarification, Kyeudo said round count has no effect except short term spells and effects. I could argue I'm justified in asking for a rewind all the way back to my round 4 posting since that's when the difference would kick in. However, in the interest of time, I'm asking for a rewind to my post at 5:10pm where I say "I'll continue under the assumption..." Since that's arguably where my strategy would differ had I known that your round postings were correct and Kyeudo's statement could be debated being inconsistent with RAW.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

He had me confused with the round counting as well. Delay is noticable and should have been announced, as it makes bookkeeping the inititive consequences easier.

As I said earlier, round count only matters for duration buffs. Inititive order is what realy changed, and that does matter.

Here's how things are now:
Roberts was acting first in the turn.
Chile readies an action at the end of one turn.
Roberts, at the begining of the next, triggers it by shooting the horse.
The ready action interrupts Roberts turn and the horse moves. Chile is now top of the round.
The rest of Roberts turn happens.
Chile's turn for the rest of the round is skipped. He is out roughly one move action in the grand scheme of things.
Next round starts. Chile has the highest inititive, so he goes first in this round.
Chile acid breaths Roberts.
It is now Roberts turn.

This is all, of course, dependant upon me understanding the ready action rules well enough.

[Mavian]

If delaying is a noticeable action, then readying has to be a noticeable action as well.

And if that's the case, then I want to rewind back to the beginning of my turn in round 6, because Chile didn't post anywhere that he had readied an action.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Yes, readying an action is noticable, as it takes up a standard action.

If you realy want, we can rewind this. It technicaly is within your rights, as both Chile and his horse readied an action without declaring it.

This thread is quickly devolving into a rules nightmare the like of which I haven't seen since we fired Damionte.

[Talic]

Ref Talic

There's nothing in the SRD to indicate that delaying (i.e. not doing anything) is noticable, other than posting when you act. Mavian did so, for the most part, correctly listing the round he was acting in for each action. The only update that should be noted is that the movement that Mavian noted in his "Round 2 redux" (post 94) actually took place at the beginning of round 3. It produces no effect that would be noticable, other than the round acted in, which was reported.

For the actions, as I see it:

• Bottom of round 5, Chile readies an action.
• Top of round 6, Mavian moves, triggering Chile's readied action. Chile takes readied action, breathing, and his initiative count changes to immediately before Mavian (next action, round 7).
• Mavian continues turn, attacking animal.
• triggers readied action of animal (is this allowed? Does it require training, or a specific trick?), resulting in movement. Horse moves in initiative count to the same as Chile's character.
• Mavian finishes turn in round 6, and next action is Chile, top of round 7.

One question. Is readying an action for your mount an allowed action without training? Or to be more precise, how complete is a player's control over his mount?

Match on pause, for high ref ruling on issue.

[chilepepper]

IMO, delaying, because you are actually not doing anything, would be noticable. Some readying, like readying a polearm against a charge, would be noticable. Other readies, like ready to move, is not noticeable. I haven't seen anyone, other than Mavian, posting a ready outside of spoilers. As he said in post 12 of this thread

I like to post my actions the way I do so that they're concise, and easy for the refs to follow if there's a need to go over them.

I haven't seen anything that would indicate the act of readying is non-spoilerable. Most of the time, you are simply delaying your action to a later time, which is as obvious as not taking the action at all. I haven't seen consistent examples of people saying: move action to here, standard action not taken, free actions not taken, done. But if we are to post readied actions and delay as if it's a noticeable thing, than that's fine, but I haven't seen that rule yet (save the proposed post format from today). If that's the ruling than I guess we should decide how far back we go. As I said, my current vote is going back to between my first breath and the crossbow shot. Mavian, would you like to go back further?

About the mount. Mounts use their own actions, so there's no reason they can't ready an action. RAW says guiding a mount with your knees is a free action. It does not list an action value for guiding a mount normally. Since it's not a free, move, or standard action; there's nothing limiting me to guiding it as part of the mounts move action, like it would normally be if it weren't readied. (Not to mention the fact that Kyeudo already acknowledged the mounts readied action.)