Incantatrix or Iot7v?

[Frosty]

I haven't built many wizards lately, and I'm thinking about building one for fun. Which class combination would you say is more 1) more powerful and 2) more fun to play?

Wizard 5/Iot7v 7/Incantatrix 8
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Iot7v 5
Wizard 5/Iot7v 7/Archmage 5/PRC 3
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5

[Azerian Kelimon]

For sadism, the first door is the one I pick, Monty.

For something fun to play That doesn't COMPLETELY obsolete your fellow players, the third option is best.

[Frosty]

Iot7v + archmage doesn't make other players feel useless?

And I don't have the book right now, but what exactly does the last 2 levels of incantatrix offer?

[Xefas]

Well, the first one (the Wizard 5/Initiate 7/Incantrix 8) essentially means you're never going to die come Hell, high water, or legions of Winged Tarrasmotniks (that's the Tarrasque, Asmodeus, and Doctor Robotnik fused DBZ style). And also that you're capable, with the right metamagic feat selection, of destroying countries and godlings alike at your whimsy.

So, I guess my vote for 'power' would be the first one.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

IotSV has a more defensive bent, and so is probably less gamebreakingly powerful, since creatures of a significantly higher CR will be able to get through or around the veils one way or another, whereas it's always hard to fend off a multitude of freely quickened/persisted high level spells. That said, I believe Wizard5/IotSVX is illegal due to skill requirements, so if you were going to use both (in a theoretical build, I hope) you'd be better off starting with Incantatrix. I'd either go to Incantatrix 7 for that no-spellcraft-required free metamagic, or go to Incantatrix 10 for the ATB reduced metamagic cost. So the builds would look like so:

Wiz5/Incantatrix7/IotSV7/AM1
or
Wiz5/Incantatrix10/IotSV5 (which you already posted)

Also note that some of that Wiz5 could be replaced by Master Abjurer, especially if you're going for IotSV.

[Azerian Kelimon]

IoTSV makes DEFENSIVE abilties useless, which will uselessfy a knight, but not most other guys. Archmage is standard and something most groups cna cope with. Incantatrix, though....*shudders*.

The last two levels give you an extra use of instant metamagic, a bonus feat, and...prep yourself...Improved metamagic, which is teh borkenzorz. The reason the first option is still better is that, while impoved metamagic is amazing, you're already an offensive god, so becoming a defensive god is better.

[Frosty]

What's ATB? Incantatrix is from magic of Faerun right? I haven't looked at it and Iot7v in a looong time, so I gotta figure out what I'll lose with the last 3 levels of Incantatrix vs the last 2 levels of Iot7v.

And what does Improved Metamagic do? Lower meta cost?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What's ATB? Incantatrix is from magic of Faerun right? I haven't looked at it and Iot7v in a looong time, so I gotta figure out what I'll lose with the last 3 levels of Incantatrix vs the last 2 levels of Iot7v.

And what does Improved Metamagic do? Lower meta cost?

Sorry, ATB means across-the-board. Incantatrix is from Player's Guide to Faerun. I don't know how much information I can post, but both Incantatrix and IotSV get quite a bit of goodies at their last two levels.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Indeed. As for what you lose, you lose snatch spell or summat like that, a bonus feat, an extra use of instant metamagic, and impro metamagic if you miss those three levels, and the indigo and violet veils plus the Kaleidoscopic Doom from IoTSV. A lot more crippling to your defensiveness losing those two levels than losing three incantatrix levels.

[Frosty]

And if you know that your game might veyr well go into epic levels, what build you would suggest?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Any, and grossly abuse epic spells.

[Crowheart]

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil can only be taken after level 10 anyway. To do any of the above mentioned builds, you'd have to dip into incantatrix first or take more wizard levels.

If you care nothing for being dumb god-awful powerful, Incantatrix is the way to go.

I played an Incantatrix into the epic levels. My experience was very dismal, to say the least, but then again, we were asked to remain fairly core concerning spell and feat selections.

You can't imagine how disheartening it is to be foiled by paragon gargoyles, mere CR 19's. Stupidly high SR and touch AC. *sulk*

[Azerian Kelimon]

Pity you didn't have Sonic spheres. Those kill anything. Though a Solid fog would have worked.

[Frosty]

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil can only be taken after level 10 anyway. To do any of the above mentioned builds, you'd have to dip into incantatrix first or take more wizard levels.

If you care nothing for being dumb god-awful powerful, Incantatrix is the way to go.

I played an Incantatrix into the epic levels. My experience was very dismal, to say the least, but then again, we were asked to remain fairly core concerning spell and feat selections.

You can't imagine how disheartening it is to be foiled by paragon gargoyles, mere CR 19's. Stupidly high SR and touch AC. *sulk*

True Strike for the win?

Oh yeah, is 3.5 Incantatrix stronger than 3.0 version?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As regards any and all IotSFV builds:

1) The pre-reqs are 12 ranks in some things. So level 10 is your first level of IotSFV. Take Incantatrix before that.

2) If you are going to take IotSFV then there is very little reason to not go MS Abjurer first. You get the feat back you would have gotten at level 5 (and if you are going into Archmage another pre-req feat for free) plus assorted minor benefits.

The builds I like are:

Wizard 3/MS 2/Incantatrix 4/IotSFV 7/Incantatrix 4, then finish Incantatrix if you go Epic.

Wizard 3/MS 6/IotSFV 7/MS 4/Epic Wizard levels after that? Or Epic MS? Or Epic IotSFV? Are there Epic progressions for any of these classes?

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archamge 5.

[Frosty]

Now, if I were to specialize in Conjuration to get the Abrupt Jaunt feature (which I still don't know if its (Su) (SLA) or (Su) grr), which schools should I ban?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, 3.0 incantatrix is weaker than 3.5. And I'd drop Evocation and Enchantment, if I were you. Mostly sucky, they are. Enchantment is a sort of hit, but you can do without it.

[Frosty]

Hmm, losing Contingency sucks, but...the rest of Evocation really sucks.

So what school would be good to focus on? I'm thinking one powerful option might be to focus on Enervation. Level drain without saves is hard to stop. Another option to focus on Orb spells and blast things to death.

Let's see...Arcane Thesis, possibly Metamagic School Focus, Iron Will, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and what else reduces metamagic?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm, losing Contingency sucks, but...the rest of Evocation really sucks.

So what school would be good to focus on? I'm thinking one powerful option might be to focus on Enervation. Level drain without saves is hard to stop. Another option to focus on Orb spells and blast things to death.

Let's see...Arcane Thesis, possibly Metamagic School Focus, Iron Will, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and what else reduces metamagic?

Greater Shadow Evocation lets you duplicate Contingency

Also, Iot7V's capstone is really the Violet Veil, which duplicates that particular color in the Prismatic Wall. In other words, you're immune to YES, and anyone trying to get through has to make a save or get ported to a random plane. That's one hell of an immunity. And best of all, by that time, you get to bring it up in response to an enemy attack.

Incantatrix's nifty capstone ability is to make a sufficently difficult Spellcraft check to cast a metamagic spell without increasing caster level.

[Frosty]

Makes me immune to YES? Is that another acronym?

Incantatrix's nifty capstone ability is to make a sufficently difficult Spellcraft check to cast a metamagic spell without increasing caster level

Doesn't that only apply to another allied spellcaster?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Makes me immune to YES? Is that another acronym?

Doesn't that only apply to another allied spellcaster?

1. Just take a look at the violet part of Prismatic Wall, which is what the veils are based on in the first place. Immunity to YES just means: Am I immune to that effect? YES.
2. Actually, the capstone for Incantatrix (I thought the male form was Incantalar, not Incantatar, but it doesn't matter) is the across-the-board metamagic cost reducer, Improved Metamagic. All the spellcraft-reliant abilities are given at earlier levels.

[Frosty]

So it's like Arcane thesis for every single one of your spells?

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Eww: I just saw you gotta give up an extra school with Incantatrix. Still good, but what school...I don't wanna give up Illusions. Way too good. But what school benefits from metamagic the least?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

*swats with 3.0 sourcebook*

Bad Frosty. Baaadd. Don't exploit WotCs idiocy. That's wrong. No. Noooo.
Or at least that's what your DM would say.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So it's like Arcane thesis for every single one of your spells?

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Eww: I just saw you gotta give up an extra school with Incantatrix. Still good, but what school...I don't wanna give up Illusions. Way too good. But what school benefits from metamagic the least?

Arcane thesis has no limit to the level adjustment reduction. An Incantatrix with no other metamagic reducers would still cast a Silent spell at a +1 level adjustment.

I don't know much about spontaneous divination, other than its cheesy combinations with Ultimate Magus.

Being a generalist or a diviner helps ease the burden for that extra specialization. I suppose it's a plus for IotSV that its entry requirements are much less painful.

[Frosty]

True I can just spec divination, but then I miss out on the juicy Abrupt Jaunt...gah! So much options, so small a cheese-container

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Also note it applies to any Divination spell cast by half caster classes as well. So Paladin/Ranger/Half casters in Complete Divine are all giving you their Divination spells.

And check out Trapsmith or something in Dungeonscape. It has Clairvoyance/Audiance as a 1st or 2nd level spell.

[Frosty]

That's pretty...badass. There are some very good divination spells out there.

[Chronicled]

If you want to be a truly badass conjurer, read this: Treantmonk's guide to Wizards - Being a god. If you have access to the Spell Compendium (and even if you don't), Conjuration is the best school to specialize in, followed by Transmutation, simply for spell choices. Toss in Abrupt Jaunt, and it's not really a contest any more. You should specialize in a school that has 1) a spell you want to take every level, 2) a spell each level that you would cast every day 3) other goodies. Conjuration is that school.

The spontaneous divinations is absolutely amazing. Take it, and never prep a divination again.

I wouldn't specialize in divination just to keep access to a school. As long as you keep Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion, you'll do fine. Abjuration and Necromancy are extremely helpful, but either can be lost if needed. Remember, you're only as flexible as the spells you have ready, so the more the merrier (and why focused specialist is worth a serious look). I've never been in a game where keeping spell slots open for later memorization is a good idea until the very late levels.

As an unmentioned option: if you have Races of Eberron, the Changling offers some interesting choices with its dual specialization (specialize in Illusion and Transmutation, give up 3 schools) alternate class feature, and access to the Recaster PrC, which gives a great deal of metamagic flexibility for 1 caster level lost.

Keep in mind, if you go Incantrix in your later levels, you can nab all the lower-level spells of the school you're going to ban.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So it's like Arcane thesis for every single one of your spells?

On a separate note, how good is the ACF where I trade away a wizard bonus feat for spontaneous casting of *any* divinations pell? It doesn't even have to be a wizard one! Sound nifty to me. I never have to waste time learning See invisible or True Seeing or anything.

Eww: I just saw you gotta give up an extra school with Incantatrix. Still good, but what school...I don't wanna give up Illusions. Way too good. But what school benefits from metamagic the least?

Or be a Sorcerer and not bother having to ban anything...

[valadil]

Incantatrix still bans a school, even if you're a sorcerer. I'm not sure if this goes for 3.5, but in the 3.0 version if abjuration was your wizard spec school you didn't have to ban anything else.