Keep on the Shadowfell preview characters

[Starsinger]

Else, a warrior can switch from one lifelong combat style to another. It's only fair game.

No it's not fair! This is D&D where fighter types have to be heavily restricted, boring, and mundane or people start complaining.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah! Death to the heretics who believe in great masters like those from the old traditions! Screw 'em!

[Matthew]

Oh dear. Let's all cool down a bit. We know some people aren't going to like 4e and are going to prefer D20. It's no big deal, no need to start mocking them. This is generally a nice friendly forum.

Thanks for posting links to the preview characters, Charity. It doesn't look like 4e will be my cup of tea, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meh, we're all cool, we're just being showoffs about our knowledge of Myths.

[EvilElitest]

No it's not fair! This is D&D where fighter types have to be heavily restricted, boring, and mundane or people start complaining.

So we should go into the other extreme and wind up with the absurd Kenshin styled fighters? Wow, i'm excited
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

"Hey, the other guy is telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Well, I can do that too, but I'm more badass! Suck it, wizzie!"

[EvilElitest]

"Hey, the other guy is telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Well, I can do that too, but I'm more badass! Suck it, wizzie!"

As i said, when eventually get the Speh with the giant sword, and nobody wants that
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Addendum: Katana Fullblades do not exist and cannot be made. Any attempt fails.

And Normal katana's do less damage than Longswords.

[Starsinger]

So we should go into the other extreme and wind up with the absurd Kenshin styled fighters? Wow, i'm excited
from
EE

I see fourth edition as a more happy medium.

Although, since you've mentioned a similarity to WoW, I'd like to point out that Warriors in WoW are certainly more awesome than 3.5 fighters without being absurd anime fighters. So there is in between ground.

But, if the only choices are "Attack, attack, attack, trip, attack/ leap attack shock trooper power attack pounce" one trick ponies and "Flaming Leopard Battle Claw", I'd much rather have the latter.

[Charity]

Oh dear. Let's all cool down a bit. We know some people aren't going to like 4e and are going to prefer D20. It's no big deal, no need to start mocking them.

Don't make me say it

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Edit, I can't even stay on topic on my own darn thread... is there no hope?

[Myshlaevsky]

This is all just a ruse, fighters in 4e are going to be more restricted than ever.

Sure, they might show you these maneuvers and abilities, but what they aren't showing you is that the class starts every fighter with 800lb, permanently unremovable, magic-resistant chains around it's wrists and ankles

[Gorbash]

IMHO, spellcasters SHOULD be stronger than any other class, just because of the source of their power. On one side we have the Druid, who gets his powers and shifting ability from the mother nature herself; Cleric, who has a GOD watching his back; Wizard, altering the reality itself. And on the other side, the Fighter, a bloke who fights good. Well, of course they're going to kick his ass. The whole fantasy setting wouldn't make any sense if an ordinary guy, like a fighter, would be able to stand against something totally out of ordinary. It's the same case with Dragons. They are and should be way above their CR. They're freaking dragons! Epitome of fantasy. Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Okay. Spellcasters are superman.

But Fighter's get to be Batman. See, we fighter lovers get the lion's share, whatever happens! We're still more powerful in the long run.

[Starsinger]

Okay. Spellcasters are superman.

But Fighter's get to be Batman. See, we fighter lovers get the lion's share, whatever happens! We're still more powerful in the long run.

Especially in one of those games where AMFs pop up more often than Kyrptonite. (I swear it's amazing how much of that planet landed on earth..)

[Azerian Kelimon]

That doesn't even matter. We're cooler, and that's enough.

See, the only guy that can compete with us is Indiana Jones! (Skillmonkeys). And he's in a lower league anyway.

[Charity]

Just so you know Gorbash IMHO stands for in my humble opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion, however so are the rest of us.

"Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced."
Is the tiredest meme imaginable, it's got no substance to back it up and if you hate 4e soooo very much why don't you just avoid the threads that are clearly labled as 4e threads.

The publishers of the game WotC do not agree that only spellcasters should be powerful they have made this new edition in an attempt to remedy what they see as wrong with 3.5. It is not going to change cos you don't like it, suck it up and play 3.5.

[Reel On, Love]

IMHO, spellcasters SHOULD be stronger than any other class, just because of the source of their power. On one side we have the Druid, who gets his powers and shifting ability from the mother nature herself; Cleric, who has a GOD watching his back; Wizard, altering the reality itself. And on the other side, the Fighter, a bloke who fights good. Well, of course they're going to kick his ass. The whole fantasy setting wouldn't make any sense if an ordinary guy, like a fighter, would be able to stand against something totally out of ordinary. It's the same case with Dragons. They are and should be way above their CR. They're freaking dragons! Epitome of fantasy. Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced.

I guess the Conan stories, in which wizards can't throw fireballs around and get their ass handed to them by any swordsman who's strong, tough, and strong-willed enough, are WoW.

There's nothing that makes spellcasters of any given level inherently stronger than warriors of that same level. Have you read any myths, and the kind of stuff mythical warriors and rogues do? Haven't you ever read any fantasy with inhumanly skilled non-spellcaster characters being ridiculously badass?

Sorry, but you don't get to decide that people who play fighter types automatically have to suck next to their buddies. Looks like WotC agrees.

[Matthew]

Edit, I can't even stay on topic on my own darn thread... is there no hope?

Ha, ha. I would say that all hope of you staying on topic was long gone...

Okay. Spellcasters are superman.

But Fighter's get to be Batman. See, we fighter lovers get the lion's share, whatever happens! We're still more powerful in the long run.

You've got it backwards. Fighters are Superman (before he could fly) and Wizardsa re Batman.

I guess the Conan stories, in which wizards can't throw fireballs around and get their ass handed to them by any swordsman who's strong, tough, and strong-willed enough, are WoW.

Actually, Wizards in Howard's original stories are far stronger than the average fighter and are indeed capable of casting some kind of fireball type magic. Conan is 'just that great' and tends to hack them down before they complete their spells (or else has the aid of another powerful magic user).

Old Tsotha rose and faced his pursuer, his eyes those of a maddened serpent, his face an inhuman mask. In each hand he held something that shimmered, and Conan knew he held death there.

The king dismounted and strode toward his foe, his armor clanking, his great sword gripped high.

"Again we meet, wizard!" he grinned savagely.

"Keep off" screamed Tsotha like a blood-mad jackal. "I'll blast the flesh from your bones! You can not conquer me--if you hack me in pieces, the bits of flesh and bone will reunite and haunt you to your doom! I see the hand of Pelias in this, but I defy ye both! I am Tsotha, son of--"

Conan rushed, sword gleaming, eyes slits of wariness. Tsotha's right hand came back and forward, and the king ducked quickly. Something passed by his helmeted head and exploded behind him, searing the very sands with a flash of hellish fire. Before Tsotha could toss the globe in his left hand, Conan's sword sheared through his lean neck. The wizard's head shot from his shoulders on an arching fount of blood, and the robed figure staggered and crumpled drunkenly. Yet the mad black eyes glared up at Conan with no dimming of their feral light, the lips writhed awfully, and the hands groped, as if searching for the severed head. Then with a swift rush of wings, something swooped from the sky--the eagle which had attacked Tsotha's horse. In its mighty talons it snatched up the dripping head and soared skyward, and Conan stood struck dumb, for from the eagle's throat boomed human laughter, in the voice of Pelias the sorcerer.

Then a hideous thing came to pass, for the headless body reared up from the sand, and staggered away in awful flight on stiffening legs, hands blindly outstretched toward the dot speeding and dwindling in the dusky sky. Conan stood like one turned to stone, watching until the swift reeling figure faded in the dusk that purpled the meadows.

"Crom!" his mighty shoulders twitched. "A murrain on these wizardly feuds! Pelias has dealt well with me, but I care not if I see him no more. Give me a clean sword and a clean foe to flesh it in. Damnation! What would I not give for a flagon of wine!"

[EvilElitest]

Addendum: Katana Fullblades do not exist and cannot be made. Any attempt fails.

And Normal katana's do less damage than Longswords.

Thank you

You hear that FF. Deal with it

I see fourth edition as a more happy medium.

It seems to me like a throw back

Although, since you've mentioned a similarity to WoW, I'd like to point out that Warriors in WoW are certainly more awesome than 3.5 fighters without being absurd anime fighters. So there is in between ground.

But, if the only choices are "Attack, attack, attack, trip, attack/ leap attack shock trooper power attack pounce" one trick ponies and "Flaming Leopard Battle Claw", I'd much rather have the latter.

Actually, even through i might have stared teh 4E/video game thing, i don't think it is going to be like an MMO. I wouldn't mind a WoW Warrior very much actually, i'd be cool with it. I think 4E is becoming more like FF

"Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced."
Is the tiredest meme imaginable, it's got no substance to back it up and if you hate 4e soooo very much why don't you just avoid the threads that are clearly labled as 4e threads.

The publishers of the game WotC do not agree that only spellcasters should be powerful they have made this new edition in an attempt to remedy what they see as wrong with 3.5. It is not going to change cos you don't like it, suck it up and play 3.5.

oh cute, nice try, except it breaks because of use of straw men and faulty arguments

1) 4E isn't becoming much like WoW per say, more like a mix of a war game, Wuxia film and FF. Throw some anime in maybe
2) As i said before, don't use strawman arguments. I want an new edition, i've argued for it when 4E was first announced. I don't like these changes.
3) 3E is broken. I don't like 4E's changes nor the game itself
4) I know your a fan of ignoring people, but simply telling them to go away doesn't make people's complaints less valid
Pathetic
from
EE

[Tengu]

These character sheets clearly show to me that indeed, DND is becoming more like Final Fantasy or WoW.

But that's only because both of these name are synonymous with quality.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Ha, ha. I would say that all hope of you staying on topic was long gone...

Are you implying that there was any hope at some point in the past?


Thanks for the preview and the road trip to Vegas.

[Gralamin]

These character sheets clearly show to me that indeed, DND is becoming more like Final Fantasy or WoW.

But that's only because both of these name are synonymous with quality.

Truth.

Also, Charity, you have done a terrible thing. I've told myself this wasn't coming out until the 20th in order to allow myself to study for my AP exams. Now, I'll have to get it on Monday. Goodbye Chem score. This is all your fault Charity

[Charity]

I was just replying to your ad.

Silvanos made me do it...

Are you implying that there was any hope at some point in the past?


Thanks for the preview and the road trip to Vegas.

[Azerian Kelimon]

WoW, maybe. FF died after 9, and that one went out at the wrong time (The style of the first FF's is no longer sutiable for the world, but it was still an excellent game. FF 8 was the last big game, IMO.). Fetishpheres...*shivers*

[Reel On, Love]

Matthew: Tsoth-Amon is probably the most powerful sorcerer in the Conan stories. Plenty of others fall relatively easily. The Conan d20 RPG reflects this, making arcanists weaker, overall, than other characters.

[Matthew]

Matthew: Tsoth-Amon is probably the most powerful sorcerer in the Conan stories. Plenty of others fall relatively easily. The Conan d20 RPG reflects this, making arcanists weaker, overall, than other characters.

That's not Tsoth Amon (though he is a really, really powerful Wizard). Thoth Amon only has power through his ring, it's quite different. that guy is some kind of half demon, reputedly.

Regardless, he's not the only example by a large margin. In fact each of the first four Conan stories feature excessively powerful (and quite different) Wizards.

[Reel On, Love]

That's not Tsoth Amon.

Oh, my bad. That's Tsotha, I was thinking of Thoth-Amon. Still, I think the point stands--he does throw a fireball, but not all of them do, and then Conan chops his head off, Ze End.

I didn't suggest wizards weren't stronger than the average swordsman (which Conan takes on in large groups at a time), but no stronger than the rest of the important tagonists, pro or anti.

I've been reading the earlier (in story chronology, not publishing chronology), pre-King stuff, and I didn't recall any fireballs being flung around. The overall trend to me seems like sorcerers are manipulators, summoners, curse-layers, but when they're in a room with Conan it's over. The most trouble they give him is when they send demons or sorcerous creatures at him from a a great distance.
The priests and sorcerers who don't do the whole demonology, Set, dark-powers thing tend to be even weaker than the ones who do, as well.

[EvilElitest]

These character sheets clearly show to me that indeed, DND is becoming more like Final Fantasy or WoW.

But that's only because both of these name are synonymous with quality.

exactly and the only solution is communist......what

WoW, maybe. FF died after 9, and that one went out at the wrong time (The style of the first FF's is no longer sutiable for the world, but it was still an excellent game. FF 8 was the last big game, IMO.). Fetishpheres...*shivers*

Meh, i liked FF tactics and FF 12 was ok. 10 was simply an abomination

Truth.

Also, Charity, you have done a terrible thing. I've told myself this wasn't coming out until the 20th in order to allow myself to study for my AP exams. Now, I'll have to get it on Monday. Goodbye Chem score. This is all your fault Charity

Its coming out Monday? Eh? Or just the pre order

Anyways i laugh at you, i finished my AP yesterday

from
EE

[ShadowSiege]

The whole fantasy setting wouldn't make any sense if an ordinary guy, like a fighter, would be able to stand against something totally out of ordinary. It's the same case with Dragons. They are and should be way above their CR. They're freaking dragons! Epitome of fantasy. Go play WoW if you want every class to be balanced.

1.) A fighter is a Badass Normal for at least a little while until he, too, starts breaking the laws of physics. And fighters do routinely whoop on mages in other media, or in the case of Elric,

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everyone including the gods because he has sword that eats souls

Granted, Elric

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is an incarnation of the Eternal Hero (Whoo! To that being an epic destiny) with an artifact sword

Then again, that's pretty much what fighters get to be at epic level.

2. ) Saying a dragon's CR should be undervalued because they are dragons and thus dangerous is absurd. It goes against the intent of the CR system, which is to enable a DM to create a level appropriate encounter for the PCs to face.

3.) Have you ever actually played WoW? As in high level, end-game PVP & raiding? The classes are only approximately balanced, and every patch it changes. The cyclical "balancing" that the dev team did was frustrating to no end, and resulted in 3 canceled accounts (me & 2 friends).

In regards to the character sheets, meh. Nothing really new. I'm far more interested in what the upcoming previews are. It's not as though we've seen any spectacular new things with the sheets, though they are much appreciated for further adding to the data people are compiling for the preview releases at ENWorld.

[Reel On, Love]

Shadow: Elric is also a powerful sorcerer himself, so that doesn't really apply.