Keep on the Shadowfell preview characters

[Gralamin]

Its coming out Monday? Eh? Or just the pre order

Anyways i laugh at you, i finished my AP yesterday

from
EE

Theres a good chance it will be out on the shelves on monday, based on how my FLGS usually operates.

[ShadowSiege]

Shadow: Elric is also a powerful sorcerer himself, so that doesn't really apply.

He winds up doing a lot of his fighting in melee though. He's an excellent gish. His spellcasting is primarily used to summon in help from what I recall.

Edit: In a less epic level example, Link is an example of a fighter beating a magic user. Or Batman beating... anyone (but that's already been said).

[Matthew]

Oh, my bad. That's Tsotha, I was thinking of Thoth-Amon. Still, I think the point stands--he does throw a fireball, but not all of them do, and then Conan chops his head off, Ze End.

Sure, that's the nature of Conan stories. In that particular case, the Wizard survives, but another Wizard takes care of that minor problem for Conan.

I didn't suggest wizards weren't stronger than the average swordsman (which Conan takes on in large groups at a time), but no stronger than the rest of the important tagonists, pro or anti.

Indeed, you just said any Swordsman who's "strong, tough, and strong-willed enough", which obviously leaves a lot open. Admittedly, I read it as 'any old swordsman'. Still, I'm just saying, even in Conan the fighters have to be remarkable to beat the wizards (indeed, sometimes they basically have to be destined to do it). How you then translate that onto something like D&D is another question, of course.

I've been reading the earlier (in story chronology, not publishing chronology), pre-King stuff, and I didn't recall any fireballs being flung around. The overall trend to me seems like sorcerers are manipulators, summoners, curse-layers, but when they're in a room with Conan it's over. The most trouble they give him is when they send demons or sorcerous creatures at him from a a great distance.
The priests and sorcerers who don't do the whole demonology, Set, dark-powers thing tend to be even weaker than the ones who do, as well.

Absolutely. For the most part, Conan magic isn't of the 'flash bang' variety, but it does happen. Part of it may be that 'flash bang' is just boring to narrate, but it also speaks to the nature of magic in the Hyborean age. I would say more, but I don't want to drop any more spoilers, now that I know you are currently reading through the original stories.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Indeed, you just said any Swordsman who's "strong, tough, and strong-willed enough", which obviously leaves a lot open. Admittedly, I read it as 'any old swordsman'. Still, I'm just saying, even in Conan the fighters have to be remarkable to beat the wizards (indeed, sometimes they basically have to be destined to do it). How you then translate that onto something like D&D is another question, of course.

And the D&D world the world is full of fighters. A lot more fighters then wizards. And wizards will be more powerfull then those fighters. But every once in a while a fighter is born with the Conan potentional of greatness. D&D even has a specific term for such a character. It is called a PC.


I like the balance that was done between fighters and wizards in 4E. Wizards In 4E I still see as still being more powerfull do to being more versatile, and they still seem to effect the outcome of battles more then fighters. But for the most part each class has a role in which they are good at.

[Morty]

For a little break from the eternal and seemingly unresolvable -mind you, it's hard to resolve anything when boths sides use strawmen of the size of Statue of Liberty- "to balance or not to balance" debate, I've noticed one new thing: the half-elf warlock from the D&DXP preview had one wizard at-will spell as an encounter spell. This cleric fellow here though, has no such thing. So I guess the predictions that half-elves will be able to select one at-will power as an encounter power weren't exactly accurate.

[Matthew]

And the D&D world the world is full of fighters. A lot more fighters then wizards. And wizards will be more powerfull then those fighters. But every once in a while a fighter is born with the Conan potentional of greatness. D&D even has a specific term for such a character. It is called a PC.

That's not what Player Character means at all. Still less is the default D20 D&D World 'full of Fighters'. The DMG provides a demographic outline of how many Fighters should be expected in a given settlement compared to Wizards, broken down by level. I have some tables around here somewhere showing averages for a couple of settlements...

In 24 villages with an average population 240 (80-400) you'll find the following:

{table=head] Village | Fighter | Rogue | Cleric | Bard | Barbarian | Druid | Wizard | Sorcerer | Monk | Paladin | Ranger | Total
1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 11
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 33
4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 27
5 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 30
6 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 39
7 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 32
8 | 15 | 15 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 49
9 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 12
10 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 13
11 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 37
12 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 43
13 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14
14 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 23
15 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
16 | 15 | 15 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 51
17 | 0 | 0 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 16
18 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 27
19 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 21
20 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 25
21 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 26
22 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 25
23 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 45
24 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 65
[/table]

Total: 705/5760 = about 12%
Total Fighters: 129
Total Wizards: 42

Of course, that assumes that 240 is indeed the average population of a village, which is by no means certain. It could be as low as 80 (37%) or as high as 400 (7%).

In 24 Small Towns with average populations of 1,450 (900-2,000) you'll find:

{table=head] Small Town | Fighter | Rogue | Cleric | Bard | Barbarian | Druid | Wizard | Sorcerer | Monk | Paladin | Ranger | Total
1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 11
2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 33
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 33
4 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 65
5 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 39
6 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 49
7 | 15 | 15 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 49
8 | 15 | 15 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 77
9 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 19
10 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 37
11 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
12 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 69
13 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 23
14 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
15 | 15 | 15 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 57
16 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 81
17 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 28
18 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 41
19 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 25
20 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 61
21 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 31
22 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 45
23 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 65
24 | 15 | 15 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 85
[/table]

Total 1105/34,800 = 3.17%
Total Fighters: 174
Total Wizards: 84

Assuming my math is correct, of course.

Ratios of Wizards to Fighters is probably somewhere between 2:1 to 4:1. I think that the more large settlements you have, the more it tends towards 2:1, but I haven't extrapolated to find out.

[KIDS]

Drool indeed. I particulary like the Dragonborn Paladin....!

[Yahzi]

Dwarf fighter

This is a first-level fighter?

12 healing surges? 12? Good grief... 1st level players can't count that high!

I'm assuming this number doesn't increase with level. I don't want to see a 10th level fighter with 120 healing surges.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Since the surges are based on class + CON, I kinda doubt that. Maaaaaaaaaayyyyyybe you get one or two extra surges every tier, but that's it.

[bosssmiley]

Scans of the character sheets from the Keep on the Shadowfell preview.
Dwarf fighter
page 1 page 2
Human wizard
page 1 page 2
Half-Elf Cleric of Bahamut
page 1 page 2
Dragonborn Paladin
page 1 page 2
Halfing Rogue
page 1 page 2

They are not pretty, but quite ledgable.
Before anyone gets upset, they were originaly linked over on gleemax so if WotC have a problem with it they have a funny way of expressing it.

Hmmm, interesting. More shineys at 1st level, and a seeming end to the 5-minute work day for low level casters. Makes me wonder how balanced allowing at-will casting of low level offensive/healing spells would be in 3.5 (given that actions more than spell slots are the basis of the high level power economy). Intriguing... *Spock brow*

I'm not sure from whence the wizard is deriving his AC though; given that his Dex bonus is +2 and his armour is...well...non-existent. I'm presuming the balance comes from some form of class ability (either a d20 Modern/SWd20 'defence' stat, or some form of ass pulled 'always-on' mage armour ability)?

"W00t!" at fighters getting status affecting strikes (knocking a foe prone and the like). At last, a way of neutralising enemy actions without the rigmarole of special combat actions like bull rushing or grappling. Now, if only there were a way of pulling smug caster types out of the air (or the Border Ethereal) so they can be beaten down man-to-man...

Current likelihood of Eggy D&D4-ing: Y30/N70 (up from Y20/N80).

[Morty]

I'm not sure from whence the wizard is deriving his AC though; given that his Dex bonus is +2 and his armour is...well...non-existent. I'm presuming the balance comes from some form of class ability (either a d20 Modern/SWd20 'defence' stat, or some form of ass pulled 'always-on' mage armour ability)?

You now add your Int bonus to your AC if it's higher that Dex bonus if in light or no armor.

[Ether]

So we should go into the other extreme and wind up with the absurd Kenshin styled fighters? Wow, i'm excited
from
EE

Absurd? What's wrong with Kenshin styled fighters? Sorry, the question may seem obvious but I've only come to this forum recently and haven't yet discovered why anime and fighters breaking our laws of physics = bad.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I really like those character sheets. It makes everything seem well organized.


Some comments:
- I love the race powers. Unliike 3rd edition it seems worth it taking something other then a human. Eleven accuracy, dragonborn dragon breadth, etc. It makes each race distinctly different. Half-elfs still seem underpowered though.
- Using each of the class powers seems like a lot of fun, with so much role playing potential. More fun then just usual hack slack.
- The classes seem well balanced, and yet definatly distinct. A fighter does seem to have a different feel from a Paladin, as an example.
- For the first time, it seems interesting to play a low level wizard.
- The healing surges idea takes a bit to get used to, but once I did, I really like the idea. It is way more heroic then healing potions. In 4th edition, hopefully healing potions no longer exist.
- Interesting take on clerics, on them being able to attack and heal at the same time.

Some questions/concerns:
- Wouldn't that cleave ability cause excessive micromangment, since 2 creatures get hit most of the time. And this will happen everytime the fighter attacks.
- That halfing 'luck' ability, also sounds annoying because of micromanagment. It would mean the halfing character would need to keep on asking the dm to make a re-roll. I know it is only once per encounter, but it still sounds like it would interfere with the flow of the game.
- Does anyone know how customizable these classes are? I certainly hope that every wizard is not expected to take magic missile. Do Paladin's and clerics have more choice between at-will abilities? How much the game will interested me, will be effected by how much choices there are in class creation. I hated druids, paladins, and monks in 3rd edition, because there was almost no choices in these character classes.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Absurd? What's wrong with Kenshin styled fighters? Sorry, the question may seem obvious but I've only come to this forum recently and haven't yet discovered why anime and fighters breaking our laws of physics = bad.

Welcome to the Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards effect.


That, and everyone hates shonen like fights that last a few years.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Can someone give examples of Kenshin type abilities that fighters have? Things certainly seem okay at low levels.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Fighters apparently DON'T have them. That's not the point, the point is the fear some have that it could end like that.

FYI, the same thing happened with ToB. The supplement was excellent and brought meleers almost up to par, but many people don't want to use it because it has stupid technique names and "It is too anime!".

[bosssmiley]

You now add your Int bonus to your AC if it's higher that Dex bonus if in light or no armor.

Interesting. Sort of a generalised version of the 3rd Ed. Monk's Wis to AC class ability then?

"You are smart enough to not be standing where the blow lands."

@Krysis: I think part of ToB 'kenshin fighters' storm in a teacup was that ToB's oddball wuxia-inspired manoeuvre names offended the aesthetic tastes of a vocal minority among fans of old school, 'down-and-dirty' low magic fighters. From what little I followed of the furore it seems fighter fans wanted fighters to be able to fight magic on an even playing field, but without being (or using) magic themselves.

In a nutshell:

Fanbase wanted nonmagical Charles Atlas Superpowers.
Fanbase got what smelt like "Crouching Tiger"/"Hero" fantasy ki attacks.
Result: a whole mess of kneejerk "Fanbase SMASH!!!"

(for the record: I'm a big fan of ToB)

[Sir_Dr_D]

I see little danger of that. Not in any rules condiered core, at any rate. And any suplemantal material that does this can be ignored, but I can't see it occuring even then.


Any ki type abilites will be given to monks, not fighters and rogues.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, but I'll borrow from Cool Hand Luke here:

What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men.

[Reel On, Love]

Interesting. Sort of a generalised version of the 3rd Ed. Monk's Wis to AC class ability then?

"You are smart enough to not be standing where the blow lands."

@Krysis: I think part of ToB 'kenshin fighters' storm in a teacup was that ToB's oddball wuxia-inspired manoeuvre names offended the aesthetic tastes of a vocal minority among fans of old school, 'down-and-dirty' low magic fighters. From what little I followed of the furore it seems fighter fans wanted fighters to be able to fight magic on an even playing field, but without being (or using) magic themselves.

In a nutshell:

Fanbase wanted nonmagical Charles Atlas Superpowers.
Fanbase got what smelt like "Crouching Tiger"/"Hero" fantasy ki attacks.
Result: a whole mess of kneejerk "Fanbase SMASH!!!"

(for the record: I'm a big fan of ToB)

Actually, fanbase got plenty of nonmagical Charles Atlas Superpowers. Tiger Claw is "RAAR I AM ANGRY", Iron Heart is "I'm one badass mofo", Stone Dragon is "I hit it, hard", Setting Sun is "Super-Judo", Diamond Mind is perfect for fencing masters or samurai-style warriors, White Raven is "I am a master of tactics".

But apparently "focus and hit him very precisely" becomes teh animu when the maneuver is called "Ruby Nightmare Blade".
Even though real-world fencing and martial arts--including European ones--had fancy names, too.

Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Devoted Spirit were all about half supernatural. But they were for the paladin-type class and the monk-type class... which also had non-supernatural options.

[SamTheCleric]

This is a first-level fighter?

12 healing surges? 12? Good grief... 1st level players can't count that high!

I'm assuming this number doesn't increase with level. I don't want to see a 10th level fighter with 120 healing surges.

You can only use one healing surge per encounter unless you get a power that lets you refresh your use, or if someone uses them for you (cleric or paladin)

He may have 12 healing surges... but I doubt he'd use them all in a single day... ever.

[ShadowSiege]

You can only use one healing surge per encounter unless you get a power that lets you refresh your use, or if someone uses them for you (cleric or paladin)

He may have 12 healing surges... but I doubt he'd use them all in a single day... ever.

It's quite possible to go through all 12. Perhaps not at level 1, but at higher levels where you would presumably be taking more damage, the 12 (well, 9+con mod) healing surges would allow the fighter to be healed/heal himself more often than the rest, as he will presumably be taking the brunt of the enemy's attack.

[Dragoon]

I'm like this, though is it just me, or did they get rid of encumbrance? Then again they might not deal with them on these character sheets.

[ShadowSiege]

I'm like this, though is it just me, or did they get rid of encumbrance? Then again they might not deal with them on these character sheets.

Actually, I noticed that as well. It's probably more to do with the characters only being previews in a set adventure. I wouldn't be surprised if they got rid of encumbrance, as it tends to become a nonissue after you get a bag of holding (typically I make it a priority simply because I want to avoid encumbrance).

[Oslecamo]

What, I don't get two dozen cantrips at first level as wizard? Blashphemy!

I wonder why the wizard is still shown carrying the book in hand. Does it mean he has to read every time he casts the spell? Or is just to look more badass?

Anyway, nice stuff. Wotc seems to be working hard to keep balance.

Altough I could totally see a party made of just one kind of class suceeding. Everybody is relatively good at dealing damage and everybody heals and everybody has some kind of battlefield control.

Wizard party: combine nukes to quickly finish the battle, push them back if they get too close.

Paladin/fighter party:just gank up on them and beat them untill the stop moving, using marks and insane AC to make sure they aren't even hit.

Cleric: Stand togheter and keep healing each other, wining by atrition.

Rogue:little trickier, keep moving, position cleverly for some sneack attack goodiness, push the enemies for extra aoos and a quick finish.

[ShadowSiege]

Rogue:little trickier, keep moving, position cleverly for some sneack attack goodiness, push the enemies for extra aoos and a quick finish.

Forced movement doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks. Nice try though.

[Oslecamo]

No? Well, I would say it should. If you provoke Aoos for movin by your will, you certainly should provoke Aoos by being forced to move.

Another example of balance over any kind of sense. Wich is not a bad thing.

Mind you, the wizard can still make himself fly at paragon levels and rain spells down in the fighter whose powers untill now seem to be all melee.

Also powers aren't exactly maneuvers. Maneuvers need to be refreshed and can be refreshed during battle. Powers don't.

[Kurald Galain]

I wonder why the wizard is still shown carrying the book in hand. Does it mean he has to read every time he casts the spell? Or is just to look more badass?

Because most spells require, or are improved by, an implement, such as a book or a wand.

[Trog]

Charity, you freaking rock! *drools over charaters*

I'm like this, though is it just me, or did they get rid of encumbrance? Then again they might not deal with them on these character sheets.

From what I've seen so far it looks like they take into account your encumbrance through heavy armor. Dwarves, for example, move at 5 squares but ignore the encumbrance from wearing heavy armor. So they stay at 5. Other characters have a higher base move (6, usually) but get slowed to 5 for wearing heavy armor. So I think it is already taken into account.

I think they might be taking armor check penalties still into effect for physical skills. Though I haven't bothered to crunch the numbers on that. So thank god we may still be able to run around naked and be harder to spot/invisible or whatever.

[skywalker]

I really like those character sheets. It makes everything seem well organized.


Some comments:
- I love the race powers. Unliike 3rd edition it seems worth it taking something other then a human. Eleven accuracy, dragonborn dragon breadth, etc. It makes each race distinctly different. Half-elfs still seem underpowered though.
- Using each of the class powers seems like a lot of fun, with so much role playing potential. More fun then just usual hack slack.
- The classes seem well balanced, and yet definatly distinct. A fighter does seem to have a different feel from a Paladin, as an example.
- For the first time, it seems interesting to play a low level wizard.
- The healing surges idea takes a bit to get used to, but once I did, I really like the idea. It is way more heroic then healing potions. In 4th edition, hopefully healing potions no longer exist.
- Interesting take on clerics, on them being able to attack and heal at the same time.

Some questions/concerns:
- Wouldn't that cleave ability cause excessive micromangment, since 2 creatures get hit most of the time. And this will happen everytime the fighter attacks.
- That halfing 'luck' ability, also sounds annoying because of micromanagment. It would mean the halfing character would need to keep on asking the dm to make a re-roll. I know it is only once per encounter, but it still sounds like it would interfere with the flow of the game.
- Does anyone know how customizable these classes are? I certainly hope that every wizard is not expected to take magic missile. Do Paladin's and clerics have more choice between at-will abilities? How much the game will interested me, will be effected by how much choices there are in class creation. I hated druids, paladins, and monks in 3rd edition, because there was almost no choices in these character classes.

Half-elves, unless something was left out or they acquire much better abilities at later levels, are still underpowered.
There is a difference between playing a fighter and playing a paladin.
Playing a low-level wizard isn't that interesting. "I cast magic missile" same as always