Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Sir Giacomo]

Well...it's apology time!

Two mistakes of mine - and thanks to Griffin131 and SweetRein for pointing them out.
Yes, in the scenario with the 6 dire wolves, the wolves were not flat-footed. With a sucessful hide check (-5 enlarged) vs the wolf's spot check, the monk might have had a chance to get those +2. Still, likely he'd hit.
And yes, the grapple tie is decided by the higher grapple mod, not the higher STR. Ah, how appropriate of Solo to stuff my words back into my mouth...

Anyhow, will have a read at Cenghiz' looong post. Somehow I feel that the thread is getting more constructive.

- Giacomo

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There seems to be only one solution. Build a Druid. Not to be better than the Giamonk at grappling, that would be too easy. Build it with an Animal Companion better than the Giamonk at grappling at every level until 8th. And then have the AC have more attacks at a higher AB and damage than the Giamonk after 12th. Honestly, shouldn't be too hard. I'd do it, but I can' find my MMIII.

Though staying Core, the Heavy Horse has +9 grapple at first level, and gets 2 attacks at no penalty with a 10 ft reach, better base speed, and better HP and saves.

Actually, I'm having trouble seeing why you wouldn't play a Heavy Warhorse instead at first level.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, another post asking for an answer before responding to Cenghiz...

Originally Posted by Griffin131 (in italics)
If you have two cogs, one is a modified cog, and one is a cog, and someone asks you for a cog, can you hand them the fundamentally different modified one?

Modified Base Attack Bonus != Base Attack Bonus. Why can you not understand that?

Because it's still a BAB for the purpose of flurrying a grapple. The wording may be misunderstanding, which is why the FAQ clarified it.
And to argue with Plato, the modified cog is of course still a cog that you could give when someone asks for a cog.

So its okay for you to tell me I'm wrong, and to stfu and read (implied from your posts) but its not okay for me to ask when you'll admit that you're wrong?

It's not OK when you fail to prove that I'm wrong. And I readily admit when I am (as I now did concerning that flat-footed thing you found).
EDIT: likewise, I ask kindly to read the guide again in case it is seriously misinterpreted or misrepresented. This has nothing to do with "STFU".

Wow. I thought UMD and buffs were a small portion of your build. Likening your monk to a totally useless character when you can't use them is pretty much saying you rely on them.

UMD constitutes a SEVENTH (!) part of all skills. The skills in turn only constitute a FRACTION of all of the monk's abilities. So of course it is not a major portion of what the monk can do.
It is connected to a major intuition of the joker monk build, though, in that similar to a gish it makes use of buffs, even without any caster levels. But again, UMD is only one of the methods to get those buffs.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

There seems to be only one solution. Build a Druid. Not to be better than the Giamonk at grappling, that would be too easy. Build it with an Animal Companion better than the Giamonk at grappling at every level until 8th. And then have the AC have more attacks at a higher AB and damage than the Giamonk after 12th. Honestly, shouldn't be too hard. I'd do it, but I can' find my MMIII.

Though staying Core, the Heavy Horse has +9 grapple at first level, and gets 2 attacks at no penalty with a 10 ft reach, better base speed, and better HP and saves.

Actually, I'm having trouble seeing why you wouldn't play a Heavy Warhorse instead at first level.

Ach, this is so odd it deserves to be quickly disproved.
It's a variant of the "animal companion beats fighter" fallacy. (replace fighter with monk or joker monk).

To answer your last question first: You cannot play a horse.

Then, the horse does not have improved grab or grapple. So it triggers an AoO whenever it tries to grapple, which can prevent the grapple.

Then, it does not have a reach of 10ft, but 5 (10ft is the space entry).

Then, it needs to be taught to try what it would not do - it would normally when threatened run away or attack with a hoof (the latter it btw cannot do when the druid sits on it). The 1st level animal companion only receives 1 bonus trick.

Then, Stoopidtallkid...incase you may not have noticed. IT's AN ANIMAL! Among other things: bypassed easily with a hide from animals effect. It has no skills to speak of, it cannot speak or use items, use weapons, it...ach, who am I kidding here?

And to shoot down your first assertion last: in core the druid CANNOT outgrapple the monk. Ever.
In a world without morph cheese, it's definitely impossible.
In a world with morph cheese, the monk gets the same stuff.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Giacomo, how do you feel about Monks in the Fourth Edition? Are you aiming towards Defender or Striker, or even Controller?

I guess I'll comment on fourth edition the moment I have read it completely and played it at least once.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, now cenghiz. This deserves longer attention - also because I greatly enjoyed the fluff part; plus his scenarios provide some possibility to describe how the joker monk would do in regular play (though it's not the same as playtesting, I know). This is what I hoped for when posting the build. Some criticisism AND new ideas added to mine.

About the scenario... As I mentioned before, I haven't DMed D&D for three years and I don't think I even remember some of the rules at all but... let me say what I think... Forgive me in advance about all the mistakes about numbers. I don't care about them. I care about the roles.

No problem. However, the numbers sometimes determine what roles can be played and what not.

Nope. It is their first and last encounter during their whole session. The evoker is full with arcane might and itching to rain it down on something... anything.. I believe I had made it clear. It was a session of introduction. It was a boring, 'H&S'less session so the wolves were just a random encounter before the session ends so the players could drool on their new characters' new shiny ways of cutting/burning/cuddling enemies. All DMs do that. "When players get bored, make them destruct something." - DM's Handbook - Page 86 :) But yes.. He would of course be willing to beef up the monk.

Yes. But, you see, at fourth level, in terrain now apparently containing a threat like dire wolves, he'll try to cautiously conserve his energy. In the scenario eventually I let him cast magic missile x2, ray of enfeeblement and spider climb. That's already a third of his spellpower in just one encounter!
It should be enough.

WOLVES! Canines! They have NO hide skills. Canines don't hide when they hunt. They move in pack, pursue and scatter the hunted pack, pull down a weak creature, bite it to death and eat it. Wolves possibly didn't hide at all. So yes, anyone who could see far enough could see them.

Even if they do not hide, they get some bonus to opposing spot checks, which are also still called for. At 100ft distance, they already incur a -10 penalty on DC 0 spot check to notice them. And you described a dense forest (probably meaning more penalties). So, the rogue and monk will likely see them first.

Pretty good. Really. Except, if I were _any_ skillmonkey rogue, I would climb onto a tree. A shortsword and a light crossbow (if I remember right, I have no time to check) have same damage dice, you don't have noticeable strength bonus, you can still sneak attack at point blank range with a crossbow and guess what? Canines can't climb. Easy damage without risking your squishy d6 hit die and forcing your companions to save your a** in the heat of the battle. You're the rogue, leave the direct confrontation to barbarians and fighters and.. err.. giamonks.

Well, climb can be used untrained and the canines have +7 STR bonus (I have a dog- it CAN climb a bit). But more likely, it depends how high the trees are: a dire wolf can maybe jump quite high with 50ft move.
However, true, he would have been able to sneak with the crossbow attacks vs the wolves grappled by the monk (in 3.5 there is no more risk to accidently hit the monk). An oversight of mine. Would have improved both the rogue's and monk's damage output.

No no no no NO! The rouge did just shoot a crossbow bolt. Same damage, much less risk. Possibly, most possibly the rogue has the feat 'point blank shot' (it's transferred from 3.0 to 3.5?) so it's even more feasible. The rogue's base attack bonus doesn't let him do more than one swing, so why not fire a light crossbow and reload it instead?

OK

Change here a lot. The wizard must have cast enlarge on you before. I DON'T believe another player itching on scorching some wolves with fireballs will waste his actions on you at all after the real action starts.

At 4th level, the wizard does not have fireball yet. I'd have had him use more batman spells like web, or illusions or obscuring mist for battlefield control, but you said "unoptimised" evoker.

He's a PC wizard, not your cohort. Let's assume he did use your wand before. Then you'll say "But but but... I'll have a negative to my hide modifier and wolves will see me...", let the wolves see you. Doesn't matter a lot. This is a role-playing game. The wolves will not jump onto you when you're backed up by a a druid, his compaion and a barbarian because they're canines. They wait till you scatter the pack and attack the lonely one. If you still don't like it, let me change this a bit. The druid's player says, OOC: "Need time? All right.. I cast 'Flare' at the first charging wolf.".. The flare is a flash of light, that's all. But it scared the wolves (DM Fiat) and it gave you and the wizard the necassary one turn for your buffing.

As I mentioned in the beginning of the scenario, the most likely outcome of the encounter would have been the druid casting hide from animals twice (though that would have robbed the party of the fight!).
Yes, the dire wolves may have waited for the characters to act/or might have been bluffed to keep at buy until everyone is buffed, at which point the party had attacked.

Then.. As soon as the wolves charged at the small grouping consisting of you, the druid, druid's companion and the barbarian, the wizard's prepared action, fireball exploded. Barbarian charged. Druid charged. You charged. No need for grapples, because wizard and rogue is really softening the targets from atop the trees. (Rogue is having his sneak attacks for point blank range even with the crossbow and wizard's evoking is... evoking.).

No charging through difficult terrain (densily forested forest). No fireball at level 4. And do not overestimate the range of 30ft from the height the rogue needs to be safe from jumping large wolves. His sneaks will be quite rare, though he could jump down and attack wolf the monk grapples once there are not many more around.

You are enlarged, you are giving the hurt along with your companions and the wolves are quickly distroyed. Barbarian quickly grasps a skinning knive from his satchel and skins the wolf carcasses. With his 'Profession: Tanner' he hopes he can make these into valuable stuff for the next town during his watch. You may be a bit exhausted with the thrill of adrenaline but... Not even a scratch.. You high-five OOC.

YES!

Do the number-crunching yourself. I just decided in scenario 1, Giamonk may buff and be useful without risking the party. Numbers are not important because I know they'll turn around my way.

THANKS! AT LONG LAST!

But I have a few more words...

1. You consciously or subconsciously try to make other classes look weaker. Why? As you can see in my example, D&D is a role-playing and a group game. Especially, why did you make the rogue make the worst decisions he would ever make? I'm heart-broken. Rogues, especially chaotic-neutral skillmonkey crossbow-wielding human rogues are my favourites whenever I play D&D.

Well, the rogue's decision was not necessarily that bad. This way, he had more attacking potential. It depends on his personality. On the other hands, sneaks from say, 20ft height in the trees are by no means assured.
And I do not try to make classes look weaker - I simply want to prevent them from being interpreted as overpowered and thus as a means to spoil other players' fun (who choose, say, playing a monk and play by the rules).
And the monk in that scenario did a lot for the team success. The whole character is built around contributing to the group and not being a solo warrior.

2. "In DMG, in Page xxx, there's a sentence that says 'yyy' so I can write 'Masterwork Tool' in my character sheet near _any_ skill and a real, flesh-and-bone DM won't laugh at my face." Do you really believe in this? Guides are guides because they help people make characters. Most of the DMs in the whole world will not let you use masterwork UMD tools and partially charged wands. Period. So letting them in your build does not help people using your guide.

It should help them, since masterwork tools providing +2 circumstance, nicely stackable bonus, is often overlooked. It provides plenty of fluff and fantasy inspiration. For instance, the often disbelieved UMD and spellcraft masterwork tools can be considered in that campaign world quite rare special metal alloys that for some reason boost the abilities to use magic items and recognise spells instinctively. Or, you could have some kind of "spice" 50gp total intake to give you more magic affinity and a whole lot of other things - with powerful merchant companies trying to make profit from them, aka "Dune".

And using economy to excuse partially-charged wands is... fun... OK folks gather around.. It's story-time...

Greatly enjoyed your story!
Currently, though, the ruling for the purpose of this discussion as decided by Lord_Silvanos is:
1) Creating PCs above 1st level you can choose partially wands as you like (as per DMG p.199)
2) otherwise, PCs can never, ever buy partially charged wands since it is not explicit RAW.

You can, of course, easily housrule it/rule it differently in your campaign. Mostly we try to argue here in terms of core rules to keep interpreting the viability of the monk class and my joker monk build as objective as possible.

Now, next on to your second scenario; the same group with a joker monk at level 10...vs 7 hieracosphinxes. Well, that set my imagination spinning...


- Giacomo

[Signmaker]

I have to question the existance of "Masterwork Tool" as a valid item in a guide. As usual.

This is because:

A. Specific 'named' tools take dominance over "Masterwork Tool" in terms of GP and weight. For example, Alchemist's Lab costs 500 gp, and a Disguise Kit weighs 8 pounds. Understanding this, it can be seen that "Masterwork Tool" is more of a pricing/weight guideline more than an ironclad existance.

B. Not all skills can have reasonable "Masterwork Tools" that are usable during the moment of a check. For example, one cannot simply flip a monster index open during a battle to provide a 'circumstance bonus' to provide +2 to Knowledge (Arcana). This being said, what exactly would a UMD tool be? Masterwork Tools are mundane in nature, what mundane item could possibly link one closer to magic in a circumstancial manner? Sure, the DM could provide a campaign-related reason for this interface, but then, guess what happens? DM screening. Meaning that this is NOT a valid item choice for a guide, which is intended to be usable for a large majority of campaigns.

Therefore, I beseech that Sir Giacomo remove the +2 Circumstance bonus on UMD, and change his calculations to reflect it. Otherwise, he is arguing under false data.

Reposted, as it was ignored.

[Griffin131]

Originally Posted by Griffin131 (in italics)
If you have two cogs, one is a modified cog, and one is a cog, and someone asks you for a cog, can you hand them the fundamentally different modified one?

Modified Base Attack Bonus != Base Attack Bonus. Why can you not understand that?

Because it's still a BAB for the purpose of flurrying a grapple. The wording may be misunderstanding, which is why the FAQ clarified it.
And to argue with Plato, the modified cog is of course still a cog that you could give when someone asks for a cog.

It's not a BAB for the purpose of flurrying in a grapple. The FAQ spells out that you can flurry special attacks. Attacking in a grapple is not a special attack. Initiating a grapple is.

Similar to, if a police officers asks for your Driver's License, and you hand him your Social Security card, it's not going to fly. They're both ID's, but they're fundamentally different.

So its okay for you to tell me I'm wrong, and to stfu and read (implied from your posts) but its not okay for me to ask when you'll admit that you're wrong?

It's not OK when you fail to prove that I'm wrong. And I readily admit when I am (as I now did concerning that flat-footed thing you found).
EDIT: likewise, I ask kindly to read the guide again in case it is seriously misinterpreted or misrepresented. This has nothing to do with "STFU".

Kindly? I can quote a couple of times you've been kind of rude about it. I'll put it down to tone over the internet though and drop it.

Wow. I thought UMD and buffs were a small portion of your build. Likening your monk to a totally useless character when you can't use them is pretty much saying you rely on them.

UMD constitutes a SEVENTH (!) part of all skills. The skills in turn only constitute a FRACTION of all of the monk's abilities. So of course it is not a major portion of what the monk can do.
It is connected to a major intuition of the joker monk build, though, in that similar to a gish it makes use of buffs, even without any caster levels. But again, UMD is only one of the methods to get those buffs.

It is literally impossible for the Joker to get Divine Power except by UMD, the way you have him built right now. And that is a major requirement of your builds over a certain level. It wasn't my statement that likened him to a non spellcasting wizard if he can't buff -- it was yours.

[Kurald Galain]

It is literally impossible for the Joker to get Divine Power except by UMD, the way you have him built right now. And that is a major requirement of your builds over a certain level. It wasn't my statement that likened him to a non spellcasting wizard if he can't buff -- it was yours.

Hey, some of us like having a build that is completely ineffective at levels 1-11, as well as on the first three rounds of combat on any higher level.

Or perhaps not. There is but one person arguing that this is a good strategy (or even a strategy at all) and this person is well-known for not actually playing the characters he describes. How ironic.

[Oslecamo]

Reposted, as it was ignored.

The whole idea of UMD is using magic items whitout you having any magic capacity at all.

Like my old DM said, UMD is "pressing all the buttons, saying random words, wave it around in a thousand diferent manners and pray it doesn't explode in your face"

I would say that UMD tools are a kit of several things (similar to the thief's tools) wich help a character study the item, like magnifying glasses for better reading scrolls or small levers to push buttons, amulets to try to fool the gods, backed up by a spell component pouch like item with a million diferent reagents to try to set off the item.

This is, if the caster gets a pouch for 10 gp wich has a zillion of diferent things wich all fuel magic, it's not too much to ask for noncasters to buy something a little more sophisticated for 50gp.

[Signmaker]

The whole idea of UMD is using magic items whitout you having any magic capacity at all.

Like my old DM said, UMD is "pressing all the buttons, saying random words, wave it around in a thousand diferent manners and pray it doesn't explode in your face"

I would say that UMD tools are a kit of several things (similar to the thief's tools) wich help a character study the item, like magnifying glasses for better reading scrolls or small levers to push buttons, amulets to try to fool the gods, backed up by a spell component pouch like item with a million diferent reagents to try to set off the item.

This is, if the caster gets a pouch for 10 gp wich has a zillion of diferent things wich all fuel magic, it's not too much to ask for noncasters to buy something a little more sophisticated for 50gp.

I just find that "Circumstance" bonuses tend to help in, well, a circumstance. Thief's tools? Circumstance, because you're using the tools to be thiefy. Alchemist's Lab? Everything is at your disposal, circumstance. Skills like Know(Arcana)? I find it hard to see a tool that can instantly help you on your check when combat starts. Sure, taking a minute or so to pore through a monster encyclopedia may provide for a circumstance bonus, but that's a minute of perusing. Name me a solid, plausible UMD tool that would allow you to more easily UMD on the fly. Magnifying glasses? Take time, and would imply that the bonus can be provided to examined items even when you no longer possess the tool. Spell Component Pouch? That's a lot of components to sort through. You see what my qualm is, please find a solution. Otherwise, new can of worms to deal with.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Not really. This claim, however, /does/ have to stem from ignorance, because it's /wrong/.

Except that it isn't. A 3.5 Monk with WBL, hell a 3.5 Commoner with WBL has more and better options then any 4E class.

At what level can the Monk fly around in 3 encounters a day? And what level can he teleport short distances several times a day? Teleport long distances? Read someone's mind? Go invisible at will, with real invisibility? Any 2? All of them?

At what level can a 4E party even do half those things?

Hell, at level 1 he can choose between sunder/disarm/grapple/attack/trip/stun and overrun. That's 7 abilities at will, most of which no 4E character can ever do, and those that can be duplicated are duplicated less effectively and require being paragon level at least.

Yes, ever single 4E character can do X damage and apply y status affect that ends one round later (or two, wow). No that doesn't mean that they can do anything interesting.

[Nebo_]

With a sucessful hide check (-5 enlarged) vs the wolf's spot check, the monk might have had a chance to get those +2.

-4 actually.

And to shoot down your first assertion last: in core the druid CANNOT outgrapple the monk. Ever.
In a world without morph cheese, it's definitely impossible.
In a world with morph cheese, the monk gets the same stuff.

This is ridiculous. Lets try a 20th level druid with improved grapple. He wildshapes into a dire polar bear and casts Bite of the Werebear. Your monk could do the same thing at the cost of several actions and a large portion of his WBL, but they turn out the same. The druid gets wildshape as a class feature, so you can hardly call it cheese. Powerful yes, cheese no. Now your monk has to do it before combat comes along failing several times before he even gets the spell off. The druid only needs to cast once.

And when all is said and done, their grapple check is the same. This bears mentioning twice, because of your earlier statement. At much less expenditure of effort on the druid's part.

[Rutee]

Except that it isn't. A 3.5 Monk with WBL, hell a 3.5 Commoner with WBL has more and better options then any 4E class.

At what level can the Monk fly around in 3 encounters a day? And what level can he teleport short distances several times a day? Teleport long distances? Read someone's mind? Go invisible at will, with real invisibility? Any 2? All of them?

Oh, you're conflating your gear with your character. How strange. You don't usually see that outside an MMORPG. Regardless, Teleportation: Rituals. Read Someone's Mind: Later books.

Some of these options aren't very good. Standard ACtion to Invis? When the system allows you to get perma-True Sight from gear? Useless. And they're still not the characters' capabilities; If you handed out 3.5 loot in 4e..

[MeklorIlavator]

Bite of the werebear isn't core, but doesn't the druid get better str and other bonuses from wildshape anyways?

[Rutee]

To be Fair, can't the Giacamonk Polymorph and get better bonuses then one can with Wildshape?

[Bearonet]

Except that it isn't. A 3.5 Monk with WBL, hell a 3.5 Commoner with WBL has more and better options then any 4E class.

The fact that 3.5 characters receive enormous new capabilities from their equipment is a bug, not a feature!

Hell, at level 1 he can choose between sunder/disarm/grapple/attack/trip/stun and overrun. That's 7 abilities at will, most of which no 4E character can ever do, and those that can be duplicated are duplicated less effectively and require being paragon level at least.

Overrun? Disarm? Sunder? He'd never do those things. They're awful! If he wanted to, he could say he wants to do them, and the 4E DMG tells the DM to use an [attribute] versus [defense or DC] check. Stunning is once per day.
Meanwhile, a 4E level 1 character can "not die from an enemy rolling high once or twice".

Yes, ever single 4E character can do X damage and apply y status affect that ends one round later (or two, wow). No that doesn't mean that they can do anything interesting.

In playing 4E I've found that it does. The tactical nature of combat keeps things interesting. When the cleric uses "Command" to send an enemy sprawling, dazed, and the rogue pounces on him with an encounter power and sneak attack damage, taking out half his hit points? That's fun!

[Nebo_]

Bite of the werebear isn't core, but doesn't the druid get better str and other bonuses from wildshape anyways?

I know it isn't but I'm sick and tired of Giacomo claiming that non-Core is invalid. People play more than Core, accept that already, Giacomo.

To be Fair, can't the Giacamonk Polymorph and get better bonuses then one can with Wildshape?

He won't get much higher strength than a base of 40. I believe the usual CharOp polymorph form is a firbolg, at 34 Str.

[Solo]

So, Giacomo, how would a grapping monk compare to a grappling Cleric of Kord? (Clerics who, fluff wise, spend a lot of time wrestling each other)

[Rutee]

He won't get much higher strength than a base of 40. I believe the usual CharOp polymorph form is a firbolg, at 34 Str.

Oh, I didn't realize a Bear would have such high strength. Guess they are the number one threat to America.

[Collin152]

Oh, I didn't realize a Bear would have such high strength. Guess they are the number one threat to America.

Right after those little parasols you put in drinks.
They're out to get you, and they don't care if America goes down with you.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Oh, you're conflating your gear with your character. How strange. You don't usually see that outside an MMORPG. Regardless, Teleportation: Rituals. Read Someone's Mind: Later books.

Some of these options aren't very good. Standard ACtion to Invis? When the system allows you to get perma-True Sight from gear? Useless. And they're still not the characters' capabilities; If you handed out 3.5 loot in 4e..

Yes, I'm sure that paying non-renewable cash (in 4E where you get 1/4th the base price of an item in sale) and pointing to future books to match a Core Commoner in abilities is totally worth it.

The number of creatures with permanent True Sight is what again? Seriously, it's a free surprise round against 90% of enemies (because they still can't see you outside of 120ft anyway).

And are you freaking kidding me, "It's the gear!" Yes it's the gear, because the gear provides the base abilities that are pretty much required to be playing the same game as real characters. The difference is that if you took any character with 4E abilities, and put him in 3.5, he might as well be a commoner, or a monk. Because he can't do any of the things that every single 3.5 character has to do to not be someone else's glorified cohort.

4E is a game where you take a Fighter, make really stupid feat choices, have a Wizard cohort, and then have him ready an action to cast a spell into your spell storing weapon every round.

Overrun? Disarm? Sunder? He'd never do those things. They're awful! If he wanted to, he could say he wants to do them, and the 4E DMG tells the DM to use an [attribute] versus [defense or DC] check. Stunning is once per day.
Meanwhile, a 4E level 1 character can "not die from an enemy rolling high once or twice".

1) Are you saying that a 4E character can disarm/sunder/overrun? Because he can't.

2) Disarm may be awful, but it's also a level 17 Fighter Encounter power. Of course even Wizard's in 3.5 get it at level 1. What does that say that a poor choice for a level 1 character in 3.5 is a decent choice for a level 17 4E character?

3) Stunning is a lot more then once per day. Well, in 3.5 it is, I'm sure in 4E it is only once a day.

4) Meanwhile a 4E character can "not kill an enemy rolling high once or twice." The fact that damage is pathetic and it takes four rounds to down a PC, and four rounds to down a Kobold doesn't make 4E characters more impressive. It makes them less impressive. Seriously, Minions exist just to lie and convince you that your character is badass. When you kill the "level 23" Lich in one shot, you feel awesome, nevermind that a level 1 Wizard could have done the same thing. And it has to be that way, because even if you face level 15 enemies at level 30, you'll still take 5 rounds to kill them.

[Solo]

pssst. Focus!

Maybe take it to PM or a different thread?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

pssst. Focus!

Maybe take it to PM or a different thread?

You are absolutely right, I have let this distract me from responding to Giamoco's last post to me. Will drop and/or switch to PM and/or different thread.

[Eldariel]

Of course, so can my Fighter while in a grapple. And he can get better mileage out of it.

Yes, yes, but some claimed it can't be used with Unarmed Strikes and I had to correct that.

[Rutee]

If you really think your gear is your character, I really don't care to continue it, because that's such a warped view on how a roleplaying game that does not involve robots should work that there's no point in debating it.

PS: You keep listing Binary Options I.E. things you either horribly suck at, or spec in and rock at. They're not really the same thing.

[Bearonet]

Yes, I'm sure that paying non-renewable cash (in 4E where you get 1/4th the base price of an item in sale) and pointing to future books to match a Core Commoner in abilities is totally worth it.

You can also turn the item to residuum and create your own item out of the residuum.

"Third edition characters are covered in magic items, and the items are more effective than the character" is a well-known problem! If you consider it a good thing, I'm honestly not sure what to tell you! Is the fact that a 3.5 commoner can be a viable character just because high-level characters can buy so many items really a GOOD thing?

The number of creatures with permanent True Sight is what again? Seriously, it's a free surprise round against 90% of enemies (because they still can't see you outside of 120ft anyway).

That doesn't sound like it's very well-designed. I don't think PCs should be entitled to a free surprise round against 90% of enemies for what amounts to a very minor sum of money at high levels--or even for a large sum! That sounds like a bug in the game design. It is bad for the game, not good!

And are you freaking kidding me, "It's the gear!" Yes it's the gear, because the gear provides the base abilities that are pretty much required to be playing the same game as real characters. The difference is that if you took any character with 4E abilities, and put him in 3.5, he might as well be a commoner, or a monk. Because he can't do any of the things that every single 3.5 character has to do to not be someone else's glorified cohort.

4E and 3.5 are not the same system. How are you going to directly compare them?
You seem to think that the 3.5 way of giving characters enormous piles of items that don't just make them better at their job, but give them entirely new capabilities they could never have had otherwise, is a good thing. Even the designers of 3.5 don't agree! If you do enjoy that, then, well, 3.5 is the game for you. I can't think of any other game with characters so reliant on magical equipment! At high levels, I tend to feel like I'm playing a walking pile of magic loot, not an awesome character.

4E is a game where you take a Fighter, make really stupid feat choices, have a Wizard cohort, and then have him ready an action to cast a spell into your spell storing weapon every round.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. 4E fighter powers are nothing like spells. The 4E fighter is an enormous improvement over the 3.5 fighter because he's actually good at things, and he's good on his own merit.

1) Are you saying that a 4E character can disarm/sunder/overrun? Because he can't.

Of course he can--that's why the DMG includes a way to resolve things like this. It requires a little DM arbitration, sure, but is that such a problem?

2) Disarm may be awful, but it's also a level 17 Fighter Encounter power. Of course even Wizard's in 3.5 get it at level 1. What does that say that a poor choice for a level 1 character in 3.5 is a decent choice for a level 17 4E character?

I think you misunderstand.
A 3.5 wizard will never use Disarm. A 3.5 fighter without Improved Disarm will use Disarm only in very rare situations--certainly never at level 1!
The level 17 Fighter power in 4E doesn't just disarm them--it simultaneously makes it easier to hit them (Reflex defenses are lower than AC), hurts them, disarms them, and lets you grab their weapon so they can't pick it up! It's an elaborate maneuver, not a basic disarm, which would be easily handled by a Strength versus Reflex defense attack (at a penalty, most likely).

3) Stunning is a lot more then once per day. Well, in 3.5 it is, I'm sure in 4E it is only once a day.

I thought you were talking about a first-level monk.

4) Meanwhile a 4E character can "not kill an enemy rolling high once or twice." The fact that damage is pathetic and it takes four rounds to down a PC, and four rounds to down a Kobold doesn't make 4E characters more impressive. It makes them less impressive.

It's not designed to make them impressive. It's designed to make dice rolls not have such a HUGE effect at first level. A good roll or two on the part of an enemy can easily kill a character, in 3.5 at level 1. There's very little variance between "alive and kicking", "almost dead" and "goner"! That's not a good thing for play.
4E characters can handle a large number of enemies. That's fairly impressive, I think.

Seriously, Minions exist just to lie and convince you that your character is badass. When you kill the "level 23" Lich in one shot, you feel awesome, nevermind that a level 1 Wizard could have done the same thing. And it has to be that way, because even if you face level 15 enemies at level 30, you'll still take 5 rounds to kill them.

A level 1 wizard would not be fighting a level 23 minion. This is explicitly something you shouldn't do (five-level variance).

A single level 15 enemy will die much faster than in four rounds. I think that five rounds to kill a group of ~5 enemies is fairly reasonable; that's thirty seconds!

High-level 3.5 characters are not simply powerful but absurdly powerful, and their items have an absurd effect on that. If you like that, well, enjoy it, but a lot of people rightfully see it as problems.

[Oslecamo]

Spell Component Pouch? That's a lot of components to sort through. You see what my qualm is, please find a solution. Otherwise, new can of worms to deal with.

Oh, so the wizard can instantly sort out the components of his pouch whitout trouble, but the nonwizard can't? The wizad class doesn't point any special ability that allows him to instantly find a specific component among the thousands inside his pouch. Thus one can only conclude that puting your hand into the pouch and taking out what you need is very fast.

Also, since UMD is random, one could simply say that it's the character taking a bunch of random stuff from his UMD pouch and sprinkling it over the magic item, praying that it will somehow help to activate the item. It doesn't automatically activate the item, it just gives +2 circumstance bonus on the roll.

4) Meanwhile a 4E character can "not kill an enemy rolling high once or twice." The fact that damage is pathetic and it takes four rounds to down a PC, and four rounds to down a Kobold doesn't make 4E characters more impressive. It makes them less impressive. Seriously, Minions exist just to lie and convince you that your character is badass. When you kill the "level 23" Lich in one shot, you feel awesome, nevermind that a level 1 Wizard could have done the same thing. And it has to be that way, because even if you face level 15 enemies at level 30, you'll still take 5 rounds to kill them.

O'rlly?

Behold 4e roguezilla!

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040811

He slices! He dices! He kills solo enemies of his level in a single round whitout need of any party suport!

Yeah, baby, rules mastery is back in 4e!

Since, like, solo monsters are suposed to hold the entire party for several rounds, and not go down in a single turn against one party member.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, so the wizard can instantly sort out the components of his pouch whitout trouble, but the nonwizard can't?

No. More to the point, material components are a stupid rule, based on a set of really lame inside jokes from first edition, that deserves to be ignored. Why do you think virtually nobody ever kept track of components for the past three editions?

Aside from that, nobody has been able to adequately explain how an "UMD tool" should work, and the inference that since some skills have masterwork tools available, therefore all skills have such tools, is a fallacy to begin with.

[Rutee]

I will point out that a lack of UMD tool does not murder his chances to use UMD reliably, at high levels. -10% hurts, and it pushes back when he can do it reliably for a while, but it doesn't /murder/ it. Later. Early on... well I think we all knew he'd suck at it early on.

And just to be sure, nobody is arguing RAW on this, yes? Not that I mind; RAW leads to crap like the ball of commoners. I checked again, and RAW doesn't actually say "It's up to GM approval", though it does infer that you need to actually figure out the tool..